Is Tsarist Russia doomed unless they win WWI?

From what I've read, Russia in 1914 was fast catching up to the rest of the world in terms of industry and economy. However, the onset of the war and the ensuing crises allowed internal unrest to cause the Russian state to capsize.

This makes me wonder: once Tsarist Russia entered the war, were they then forced to win, or be overthrown? Would things as relatively tame as a white peace or a separate peace (despite the Russians being firmly against the latter IOTL) still not be enough to save the Tsar?
 
From what I've read, Russia in 1914 was fast catching up to the rest of the world in terms of industry and economy. However, the onset of the war and the ensuing crises allowed internal unrest to cause the Russian state to capsize.

This makes me wonder: once Tsarist Russia entered the war, were they then forced to win, or be overthrown? Would things as relatively tame as a white peace or a separate peace (despite the Russians being firmly against the latter IOTL) still not be enough to save the Tsar?
If Russia had stayed out of the war or gotten out of it earlier, chances are the tsardom could have survived, the main problems for the Russians were that the Germans and Ottomans blocked their food imports (which were vital for the Russians, reason why they ended up having a massive infaltion and food shortage at the time of the revolution) and that the Tsar decided to lead the military himself and leave his wife administrating the nation, and both were absurdly incompetent, so if it leaves the conflict before the second happens or the first snowballs, the empire can manage to survive I think, if by the skin of its teeth
 
I'd say after 1905 and Bloody Sunday, that Nicky II was doomed... he showed at that point that the Great Father had no love for his children... and then the half-hearted attempts at making the Constitution work, by dissolving the Duma three times, each time changing the franchise to elect members that would be more favorable to the Autocrat of All the Russias...
The Great War hastened the demise of the Empire, but I feel that the demise would've come, even with a (presumably) Pyrrhic Russian victory...
 
The Tzar could have stayed in power if he supported real land reform, and the chances of staying in power increases if he also has a constitutional democracy where the parliament can pass laws however it requires 2/3 majority to overrule the Tzar if he were to veto it.
 
The Tzar could have stayed in power if he supported real land reform, and the chances of staying in power increases if he also has a constitutional democracy where the parliament can pass laws however it requires 2/3 majority to overrule the Tzar if he were to veto it.
Yeah, but you would've had to have a Not-Tsar to go along with it... certainly wouldn't have been the OTL Nicky II...
 
Yeah, but you would've had to have a Not-Tsar to go along with it... certainly wouldn't have been the OTL Nicky II...

I answered if Tzarist Russia is doomed and it is not, if it does those things.

However

Nicky would probably not do it no, but someone may convince him and/or Nicky could be "removed".
 
I'm not sure if they were going to last. Maybe the Soviet Union was not guaranteed, but the Tsardom wasn't long for the world. The 1905 Revolution really had the writing on the wall.
 
If he had stayed out of the war? Yes, there was a chance to save the Tsardom. It wouldn't be guaranteed, but there's a chance. You'd also have to have him more open to reforms and progress - something he'd never do because of how his strict father raised him, and because his wife was vehemently opposed to anything that might lessen the absolute future rulership of their son, Alexei.
 

RousseauX

Donor
This makes me wonder: once Tsarist Russia entered the war, were they then forced to win, or be overthrown? Would things as relatively tame as a white peace or a separate peace (despite the Russians being firmly against the latter IOTL) still not be enough to save the Tsar?
A white peace would have being more than enough. A more competent Tsar at the start of the war could have saved the regime even in defeat.
 

BooNZ

Banned
If Russia had stayed out of the war or gotten out of it earlier, chances are the tsardom could have survived, the main problems for the Russians were that the Germans and Ottomans blocked their food imports (which were vital for the Russians, reason why they ended up having a massive infaltion and food shortage at the time of the revolution) and that the Tsar decided to lead the military himself and leave his wife administrating the nation, and both were absurdly incompetent, so if it leaves the conflict before the second happens or the first snowballs, the empire can manage to survive I think, if by the skin of its teeth
Imperial Russia ran massive food surpluses prior to the war, drops in food production and failures of distribution were the reasons for the food shortfalls. The fragile infrastructure/ industry, systemic incompetence and corruption made Imperial Russia ill suited too cope with modern war, long before Nicky formally took the Reins.

I'd say after 1905 and Bloody Sunday, that Nicky II was doomed... he showed at that point that the Great Father had no love for his children... and then the half-hearted attempts at making the Constitution work, by dissolving the Duma three times, each time changing the franchise to elect members that would be more favorable to the Autocrat of All the Russias...
The Great War hastened the demise of the Empire, but I feel that the demise would've come, even with a (presumably) Pyrrhic Russian victory...
In my opinion, Nicky would be very challenging to displace without outside intervention. Okhrana was formidable and Russian army large and loyal -the vast majority of the Russian population were not politically motivated and had seen tangible improvements in their lot - be it from an especially low base. The above gives Nicky considerable latitude too muddle through most challenges.

The Tzar could have stayed in power if he supported real land reform, and the chances of staying in power increases if he also has a constitutional democracy where the parliament can pass laws however it requires 2/3 majority to overrule the Tzar if he were to veto it.
I don't think it would make much difference if Russia becomes entangled in a war with Germany. If Nicky (for some unfathomable reason) ever attempts such rapid and radical reforms, he is almost certain to lose control of the process and turfed out before 1914.
 
If Russia had stayed out of the war or gotten out of it earlier, chances are the tsardom could have survived, the main problems for the Russians were that the Germans and Ottomans blocked their food imports (which were vital for the Russians, reason why they ended up having a massive infaltion and food shortage at the time of the revolution) and that the Tsar decided to lead the military himself and leave his wife administrating the nation, and both were absurdly incompetent, so if it leaves the conflict before the second happens or the first snowballs, the empire can manage to survive I think, if by the skin of its teeth
Dear @Peppe it were their food exports that were blocked by the ottomans over the Black Sea that ruined/hefty shocked their international credit. IIRC the ukrainian grain made about half their gains from exports in money alone.

The germans with blocking russian access to the Baltic Sea cut them short of most of their most important industrial goods imports from Britain, Scandinavia and further abroad (i.e. nitrates from Chile). Influx of such goods via the Pacific/Vladivostok took its time to be organized and was due to the single-trackedness of the Trans-Sib rather restricted in capacity.
 
Absultist system and probably whole monarchy was doomed already since Russo-Japanese War. Without WW1 or Russian Empire winning that would give only just some years more time. People are just going rise against Nicholas II. He was unable and unwillingful make any real reforms what Russia would had needed. Probably there wouldn't be Communist regime but it is almost sure that monarchy will be abolished one way or another.
 
Imperial Russia ran massive food surpluses prior to the war, drops in food production and failures of distribution were the reasons for the food shortfalls. The fragile infrastructure/ industry, systemic incompetence and corruption made Imperial Russia ill suited too cope with modern war, long before Nicky formally took the Reins.

In my opinion, Nicky would be very challenging to displace without outside intervention. Okhrana was formidable and Russian army large and loyal -the vast majority of the Russian population were not politically motivated and had seen tangible improvements in their lot - be it from an especially low base. The above gives Nicky considerable latitude too muddle through most challenges.

I don't think it would make much difference if Russia becomes entangled in a war with Germany. If Nicky (for some unfathomable reason) ever attempts such rapid and radical reforms, he is almost certain to lose control of the process and turfed out before 1914.
Dear @Peppe it were their food exports that were blocked by the ottomans over the Black Sea that ruined/hefty shocked their international credit. IIRC the ukrainian grain made about half their gains from exports in money alone.

The germans with blocking russian access to the Baltic Sea cut them short of most of their most important industrial goods imports from Britain, Scandinavia and further abroad (i.e. nitrates from Chile). Influx of such goods via the Pacific/Vladivostok took its time to be organized and was due to the single-trackedness of the Trans-Sib rather restricted in capacity.
Really? I though one of the reasons of the revoution were food shortages cause by the war and concluded that the war messed with food imports, my bad
 
By the time World War I broke out Nicky was basically being held up by the Okhrana and the army, as there were grumblings in virtually all sections of Russia. The poor and middle class despised him for his oppressive policies and disinterest in land reform and democratic/constitutional reform. The aristocracy was also not happy about the influences of Rasputin and his cronies in government and the disasters that were the Russo-Japanese War and the 1905 Revolution. Still he held a tight grip on the military and it was only the suffering the soldiers suffered at the hands of his incompetence and mismanagement of the Great War, both at the front and at home, that caused the army to quit supporting the Czar. Hell even the Cossacks who were counted on as the Czar’s brutal enforcers of “law and order” turned on him, which is really when Czarist Russia went down the tubes. I don’t think that Czarist Russia would have survived the century but the war supercharged its dissolution, like all other empires involved in the war(i.e. Ottomans, Austria-Hungary, and Germany).

By the way if anyone wants to learn more about Nicky’s reign and how it all slipped away I highly recommend The Last Czars on Netflix. An excellent show that does a good job of looking at the fall of the Russian Empire.
 
I think best case scenario was the Russian czars becoming figureheads or being exiled. They would however survive the conflict.
 
I think best case scenario was the Russian czars becoming figureheads or being exiled. They would however survive the conflict.

Exile seems more plausible. Real reforms are really unlikely at least under Nicholas II. He was staunch reactionary who couldn't understand that world was changing and Russia had too. He was really badly out of touch.

Only hope would be that the tsar would had died before or soon after Russo-Japanese War but it might had been too late.
 

marathag

Banned
A white peace would have being more than enough. A more competent Tsar at the start of the war could have saved the regime even in defeat.
A more competent Tzar wouldn't have backed the Serbians to the point of full mobilization, an act that sets off everyone elses mobilization plans to a World War.
 

marathag

Banned
. If Nicky (for some unfathomable reason) ever attempts such rapid and radical reforms, he is almost certain to lose control of the process and turfed out before 1914.
But is unlikely in 1914 for Him and his entire family to be perforated by 7.62mm bullets, but an exile to a 'Hellhole' like Monaco or French Riviera, where he can whine for the rest of his long life that his Family was robbed of ther Imperial Birthright.
 
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