Kaiserreich: Legacy of the Weltkrieg

It's not a good sign when you ignore objective historical facts but to be fair it's clear that a lot of effort was put into this.

We're creating an alternate history mod where the Qing are still around. While I wouldn't say that we "ignore objective historical facts", we do make assumptions in order to rationalize certain outcomes. As I said earlier, in order to keep KR china recognizable, we decided that the preservation of certain elements was key. This involves some backwards-rationalization.

It's implausible that Sternberg could wrest Inner Mongolia even from a retreating Guominjun, as even if they were severely defeated, they would still have probably around 50k troops to his small army which would be unlikely to number more than 10k.

The Guominjun are meant to be significantly weaker in this timeline even before the Northern Expedition, their main army under Feng Yuxiang historically held off the Fengtian Army around Zhangjiakou thanks to Soviet aid, and in particular their construction of concrete fortifications. Without that aid the Guominjun never make serious inroads beyond Sanmenxia into Henan, and they're barely holding on in South Chahar. As Fengtian's armies rush south to deal with Wu Peifu's unexpected advance toward Beijing, Mongolian forces sweep in from the opposite site. We also make a blanket assumption that progressive movements like Feng's, no matter how genuinely progressive he actually was, are somewhat weaker KRTL due to the success of German militarism in Europe and the collapse of the Western democracies.

It's also hard to see how the KMT could have gotten as far as they did here with no Russian support. Chen Jiongming would probably have been able to defeat them on his own. I do not think a German military intervention was necessary to bring down the KMT here. A great example of what the KMT was capable of without foreign support can be found in their First Northern Expedition, where they were unable to take any of their objectives, were halted around 100 km from their starting point, and were unable to suppress Chen Jiongming without assistance from Yunnan. French advisors and some Bolshevik exiles would simply not be sufficient. The KMT OTL was unable to break out of this without Russian help because most of their money was used trying to bribe their warlord allies from attacking them.

The French are meant to have played quite an active role in supporting the KMT, one comparable to the Soviet Union OTL. It's not just advisors and Russian exiles, but also funds and weapons. Also, the KMT do mostly lose the war on their own, the Germans don't provide a ton of support.

There is no reason why the KMT being defeated would lead to the Sichuan Unification Conference actually amounting to anything more than it did OTL. I also don't see why Chen Jiongming would want to "restore" Lu Rongting, who was finished as a political force. He might have been able to defeat the New Guangxi Clique, but if he did, he would probably just annex Guangxi, rather than restoring an old enemy to power there who had nothing to offer or threaten him with.

It's harder for me to comment here because my area of expertise is really North China, but my understanding is that the rationale for Yang Sen's presence isn't so much that the conference was a success, but rather that he was selected and then backed by Beijing due to his Zhili ties. He's barely hanging on to de-jure leadership of the province, and gets thrown out in the vast majority of games.

As for Lu Rongting and Chen Jiongming, the idea is that Sun Chuanfang (and by extension Wu Peifu and the Germans) prefers to keep them at loggerheads, instead of creating a unified southern clique that could threaten his rule in Nanjing. They're set against each other, and also against Sun.

The biggest issue I have is that American mediation would probably not lead to a ceasefire on all fronts across China, and even if it did, it would not last long. Sun Chuanfang's provinces would reject rule by a Qing government in the north.

Well, it doesn't necessarily lead to a ceasefire on all fronts, just the movement of the main armies. With the timeline and the Northern Expedition writeup we're always covering the major actors, and assuming there's smaller scale action happening at a level that's less important for us to cover. Also, Sun's provinces do reject rule by Wu Peifu's government in the north. The state of "unification" is mostly de-jure, which is why we say that the Qing Government's control is mostly limited to the North China Plain.

Also, Zhang Zongchang joining Yiguandao, and actually letting them take over parts of his administration in Shandong, is unrealistic. He might join them as a hollow gesture, but I doubt that.

It is a hollow gesture. He doesn't see them as a serious problem, and considering the shockingly bad administrator he was, that doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

But in general, China remaining united peacefully for 7 years is absurd. There are many large factions that have no reason to trust each other, and their territories are not secure either, especially Shanxi. OTL, a united China that quite closely resembled this one lasted for about 8 months before the first major conflict started. It would be impossible for Wu Peifu to balance out all of his allies successfully for such a prolonged period of time. To be fair, Wu might want to limit his interference in his allies territories, which Chiang Kai-shek did not do, but this would not solve the underlying problem, that these factions are not dependent on the Qing government for anything, and war would start again soon.

It doesn't remain at peace for 7 years, there's the Shanghai Uprising, and presumably smaller conflicts between warlords. As for the major actors, you're right that the cliques aren't dependent on the Qing government, which is why(as I mentioned above) the "unification" is mainly de-jure. The primary factors preventing conflict between the major factions are:

1. The risk of starting a regional war. The situation in China resembles a sort of frozen conflict, where Germany and Japan are squaring off against each other, but benefit too much from the status-quo to start anything. Japan gets to keep a fairly secure Manchuria, agreed to by international treaty, Germany gets to subvert the Legation Treaty via the AOG, and the United States gets to formally uphold the "Open Door Policy" while taking its own share of the pie. The risk of the United States siding against an aggressor is also a major factor for either Germany or Japan. As a result there's a fair amount of pressure on the parties within China to uphold this status quo if they want to keep the aid they're receiving, and Sun Chuanfang (who is the nearest sub-national competitor to Wu in terms of strength) is particularly dependent on German aid. The natural thing for him to do would be to side with Zhang Zuolin against Wu Peifu, but German pressure makes that impossible.

2. The concentration of heavy weapons in only a few hands. Unlike OTL where China was subject to arms treaties making the import of heavy weapons difficult, those treaties don't exist in this timeline, meaning that the foreign-aligned factions in Beijing, Nanjing, and Shenyang are significantly better equipped than in the inland and non-aligned factions like Shanxi. This means that those smaller poorly equipped cliques will have a hard time banding together against the status-quo factions.

3. The Legation Cities. The main purpose of the "Neutral Zones" surrounding the Legation Cities, beyond providing them with protection, is denying the major warlord cliques the opportunity to exercise control over key logistical and financial centers like Tianjin and Shanghai. This reduces avenues for competition, and means that a major north-south war will need to take place almost solely on, or in the vicinity of, the Jinghan Railway - almost guaranteeing a stalemate.

Even with all this, though, China is meant to be like tempered glass at game-start. All it takes is some unrest and an assassination to send everything spiraling out of control. From there forward everything is game-design more than it's alternate history.
 
We're creating an alternate history mod where the Qing are still around. While I wouldn't say that we "ignore objective historical facts", we do make assumptions in order to rationalize certain outcomes. As I said earlier, in order to keep KR china recognizable, we decided that the preservation of certain elements was key. This involves some backwards-rationalization.



The Guominjun are meant to be significantly weaker in this timeline even before the Northern Expedition, their main army under Feng Yuxiang historically held off the Fengtian Army around Zhangjiakou thanks to Soviet aid, and in particular their construction of concrete fortifications. Without that aid the Guominjun never make serious inroads beyond Sanmenxia into Henan, and they're barely holding on in South Chahar. As Fengtian's armies rush south to deal with Wu Peifu's unexpected advance toward Beijing, Mongolian forces sweep in from the opposite site. We also make a blanket assumption that progressive movements like Feng's, no matter how genuinely progressive he actually was, are somewhat weaker KRTL due to the success of German militarism in Europe and the collapse of the Western democracies.



The French are meant to have played quite an active role in supporting the KMT, one comparable to the Soviet Union OTL. It's not just advisors and Russian exiles, but also funds and weapons. Also, the KMT do mostly lose the war on their own, the Germans don't provide a ton of support.



It's harder for me to comment here because my area of expertise is really North China, but my understanding is that the rationale for Yang Sen's presence isn't so much that the conference was a success, but rather that he was selected and then backed by Beijing due to his Zhili ties. He's barely hanging on to de-jure leadership of the province, and gets thrown out in the vast majority of games.

As for Lu Rongting and Chen Jiongming, the idea is that Sun Chuanfang (and by extension Wu Peifu and the Germans) prefers to keep them at loggerheads, instead of creating a unified southern clique that could threaten his rule in Nanjing. They're set against each other, and also against Sun.



Well, it doesn't necessarily lead to a ceasefire on all fronts, just the movement of the main armies. With the timeline and the Northern Expedition writeup we're always covering the major actors, and assuming there's smaller scale action happening at a level that's less important for us to cover. Also, Sun's provinces do reject rule by Wu Peifu's government in the north. The state of "unification" is mostly de-jure, which is why we say that the Qing Government's control is mostly limited to the North China Plain.



It is a hollow gesture. He doesn't see them as a serious problem, and considering the shockingly bad administrator he was, that doesn't seem unreasonable to me.



It doesn't remain at peace for 7 years, there's the Shanghai Uprising, and presumably smaller conflicts between warlords. As for the major actors, you're right that the cliques aren't dependent on the Qing government, which is why(as I mentioned above) the "unification" is mainly de-jure. The primary factors preventing conflict between the major factions are:

1. The risk of starting a regional war. The situation in China resembles a sort of frozen conflict, where Germany and Japan are squaring off against each other, but benefit too much from the status-quo to start anything. Japan gets to keep a fairly secure Manchuria, agreed to by international treaty, Germany gets to subvert the Legation Treaty via the AOG, and the United States gets to formally uphold the "Open Door Policy" while taking its own share of the pie. The risk of the United States siding against an aggressor is also a major factor for either Germany or Japan. As a result there's a fair amount of pressure on the parties within China to uphold this status quo if they want to keep the aid they're receiving, and Sun Chuanfang (who is the nearest sub-national competitor to Wu in terms of strength) is particularly dependent on German aid. The natural thing for him to do would be to side with Zhang Zuolin against Wu Peifu, but German pressure makes that impossible.

2. The concentration of heavy weapons in only a few hands. Unlike OTL where China was subject to arms treaties making the import of heavy weapons difficult, those treaties don't exist in this timeline, meaning that the foreign-aligned factions in Beijing, Nanjing, and Shenyang are significantly better equipped than in the inland and non-aligned factions like Shanxi. This means that those smaller poorly equipped cliques will have a hard time banding together against the status-quo factions.

3. The Legation Cities. The main purpose of the "Neutral Zones" surrounding the Legation Cities, beyond providing them with protection, is denying the major warlord cliques the opportunity to exercise control over key logistical and financial centers like Tianjin and Shanghai. This reduces avenues for competition, and means that a major north-south war will need to take place almost solely on, or in the vicinity of, the Jinghan Railway - almost guaranteeing a stalemate.

Even with all this, though, China is meant to be like tempered glass at game-start. All it takes is some unrest and an assassination to send everything spiraling out of control. From there forward everything is game-design more than it's alternate history.
I still disagree with a lot of this, but you've made your point, and I commend the amount of work that has actually been put in here. It's very impressive, even if I personally don't find it all that plausible. So in the interests of not starting an unending flame war, I'll stop here.
 
We're creating an alternate history mod where the Qing are still around. While I wouldn't say that we "ignore objective historical facts", we do make assumptions in order to rationalize certain outcomes. As I said earlier, in order to keep KR china recognizable, we decided that the preservation of certain elements was key. This involves some backwards-rationalization.

I thank you for that, many people wanted to bury the Qing, this would be terrible. KR has a past, and this past must be considered to garantee the future of the mod.
 
I still disagree with a lot of this, but you've made your point, and I commend the amount of work that has actually been put in here. It's very impressive, even if I personally don't find it all that plausible. So in the interests of not starting an unending flame war, I'll stop here.
Fair enough, and thanks.

I thank you for that, many people wanted to bury the Qing, this would be terrible. KR has a past, and this past must be considered to garantee the future of the mod.

Thanks, but I actually don't think it's necessary to guarantee the future of the mod, KR would probably do just fine without the Qing, even if they do help to diversify China's ideological playing field. Mainly I think it's important to carry forward the torch out of respect for prior developers and their accomplishments, as I hope others do whenever my own work is inevitably modified.
 
Actually, I don't think it's necessary to guarantee the future of the mod, KR would probably do just fine without the Qing, even if they do help to diversify China's ideological playing field. Mainly I think it's important to carry forward the torch out of respect for prior developers and their accomplishments, as I hope others do whenever my own work is inevitably modified.

I desagree but respect your opinion.
 

Deleted member 107125

The Chinese community has actually been really supportive from the get-go. The original outline for the scenario was put together by a pair of Chinese, and we've had two Chinese coders directly involved in the rework. The team that translates KR into Simplified Chinese also provided us with regular advice and translations of sources we couldn't otherwise access. There are definitely a few who don't like the direction we've taken things, but they tend to be Han chauvinists who think China should be stronger, or that the various regionalist movements we have shouldn't exist.

If you can read Chinese I'd suggest checking out our presence on Zhihu:

https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/Kaiserreich
That's the position put forward by the official KMT and CCP histories, which make sense when you consider that both hated him, but if you read more closely the situation is more complicated. Our developer for Liangguang went out of his way to read Chen's autobiography, so I'd like to think we gave a pretty balanced look at him when pairing that with less flattering documents.
To be fair the Chen thing is what my friend Tainted said. Tainted is from Taiwan, and as such has learned the KMT’s interpretation of Chinese history.
Ame, who is also a KN China dev, is involved in translating KR and TNO stuff IIRC, so I do know of that. It’s unfortunate that the India rework doesn’t have as much insight from locals as the China rework.
 
"When it's sunny June and December too
Or in the winter time or spring
There'll be peace without end
Every neighbor a friend
And every man a King"
 
So I read it, and it's actually very impressive how much work was put in, and how accurate the description of the events that parallel OTL are, but there are some issues. It's implausible that Sternberg could wrest Inner Mongolia even from a retreating Guominjun, as even if they were severely defeated, they would still have probably around 50k troops to his small army which would be unlikely to number more than 10k.

Esoteric Mongolia under Sternberg is already a classic KR meme that's been whittled down in the name of realism, pray that it doesn't get whittled even further.

Also, Zhang Zongchang joining Yiguandao, and actually letting them take over parts of his administration in Shandong, is unrealistic. He might join them as a hollow gesture, but I doubt that.

Ditto the Shanqing Tianguo.
 
Big Jim Folson was the governor of Alabama during the late 40s,he was considered a progressive for southern standarts and became a enemy of the dixiecrats (who sadly, removed him from power).

He's maybe the only pre civil rights governor of Alabama who wasn't a überracist.

What do you see? Big Jim Folson!

He also looks like Ted Cruz

440px-Jim_Folsom.jpg


I'll be blunt. DH and Kaiserredux are both made by individuals who are angry that KR is getting rid of a lot of memes and edgy content, and they are great rebels for rebelling against the KR devs for ruining everything. Both suffer frequent coups and are therefore not as capable as they believe themselves to be.

Despite being loosely associated with DH, it's fortunate that HotB seems much more stable, and while there are memes they are at least better-researched and not edgelord for the sake of edgelord.
 
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Esoteric Mongolia under Sternberg is already a classic KR meme that's been whittled down in the name of realism, pray that it doesn't get whittled even further.



Ditto the Shanqing Tianguo.
I'm just saying, the numbers for Sternberg I found are less than 2k, and the Guominjun's First Army, the part in Inner Mongolia, usually had around 150k troops, and 75k at its very minimum. And Outer Mongolia is not exactly the world's most manpower rich area.

You could easily have the Shanqing Tianguo as some sect that can seize control of a province somewhere whose army is mutinous for whatever reason.
 
He also looks like Ted Cruz

440px-Jim_Folsom.jpg




Despite being loosely associated with DH, it's fortunate that HotB seems much more stable, and while there are memes they are at least better-researched and not edgelord for the sake of edgelord.

HotB has me legitimately more excited then 0.8 ever did. It seems to somehow be more realistic (with the general setup of the civil war) and more memey (with some of the paths the nations can go down) then base Kaiserreich and straight-up has TONS of content. I think the dev said release is this month so I won't have to wait long.
 
I'm just saying, the numbers for Sternberg I found are less than 2k, and the Guominjun's First Army, the part in Inner Mongolia, usually had around 150k troops, and 75k at its very minimum. And Outer Mongolia is not exactly the world's most manpower rich area.

I assume the numbers you're using for Sternberg are from 1921, since historically he got driven out of power not so long after arriving. It seems reasonable to assume he'd be able to acquire more weapons and equipment given the Russian support he receives, and the several years separating 1921 and 1927 to rally additional men.

Then, let's say we're working with a middling number of 100k for the Guominjun, that still needs to be divided up according to its deployment - presumably the entire army isn't sitting in South Chahar. Most warlords left around 50% of their men in reserve, and then the Guominjun are fighting on two distant fronts (South Chahar and Shaanxi-Henan), so that's maybe 25k around Zhangjiakou assuming it's an even division. Then consider that Feng's forces in Chahar have been fighting against a numerically and materially superior force for some time, and lack the concrete fortifications provided by the Soviets. They're under-equipped, tired, and constantly harried. Then they get attacked by a smaller but completely fresh force without it even being clear that the Fengtian Army has genuinely moved south. It seems plausible to me that the Guominjun would retreat and find themselves in an awkward position with Shanxi.

You could easily have the Shanqing Tianguo as some sect that can seize control of a province somewhere whose army is mutinous for whatever reason.

That's... more or less what Shangqing does in Shandong.
 
I assume the numbers you're using for Sternberg are from 1921, since historically he got driven out of power not so long after arriving. It seems reasonable to assume he'd be able to acquire more weapons and equipment given the Russian support he receives, and the several years separating 1921 and 1927 to rally additional men.

Then, let's say we're working with a middling number of 100k for the Guominjun, that still needs to be divided up according to its deployment - presumably the entire army isn't sitting in South Chahar. Most warlords left around 50% of their men in reserve, and then the Guominjun are fighting on two distant fronts (South Chahar and Shaanxi-Henan), so that's maybe 25k around Zhangjiakou assuming it's an even division. Then consider that Feng's forces in Chahar have been fighting against a numerically and materially superior force for some time, and lack the concrete fortifications provided by the Soviets. They're under-equipped, tired, and constantly harried. Then they get attacked by a smaller but completely fresh force without it even being clear that the Fengtian Army has genuinely moved south. It seems plausible to me that the Guominjun would retreat and find themselves in an awkward position with Shanxi.



That's... more or less what Shangqing does in Shandong.
Did you miss the part where I said "Guominjun First Army"? They had three of those. The entire thing had like 400k troops, the First Army was the part in Inner Mongolia. The First Army would have no plausible reason to send half its forces to Henan and Shaanxi. Sternberg would still have like 10k troops at most vs. an extremely generous 25k Guominjun. Outer Mongolia had like 800k population, there's no way it could field many tens of thousands of troops.
 
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I am guessing the US had one hell of a red scare moment when both the UK and France fell to communism... Like, it was one thing in OTL for the USSR to arise, but a whole different realm of terror to see the former homeland and the nation that once helped the revolution fall in such short order. If I imagine right, lots of historians and politicians have a "we let this happen why didn't we help them" sorta take?
 
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HotB has me legitimately more excited then 0.8 ever did. It seems to somehow be more realistic (with the general setup of the civil war) and more memey (with some of the paths the nations can go down) then base Kaiserreich and straight-up has TONS of content. I think the dev said release is this month so I won't have to wait long.

I confess that my hype for the world set free (another name for HotB) is higher than my hype for TNO.
 
The thing about TNO is that it comes from a premise that we've seen before, and as meticulously researched and designed as it is, so much of it is just so grimdark.
 
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