List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage

[Valena]

Looks OK, but this PoD necessitates stable Ivanovich succession in Russia, and I presume Michael and Darya would marry abroad in secret? Somewhere in London or in Denmark? For love match it looks OK.

Also, the names of Elisabeth's kids would be German, as she was expected to reside in Lubeck, and Alexei (1735-1801) is no-go. She was NOT fond of her half-brother that much.
Marriage

 

[WillVictoria]

Looks OK, but this PoD necessitates stable Ivanovich succession in Russia, and I presume Michael and Darya would marry abroad in secret? Somewhere in London or in Denmark? For love match it looks OK.

Also, the names of Elisabeth's kids would be German, as she was expected to reside in Lubeck, and Alexei (1735-1801) is no-go. She was NOT fond of her half-brother that much.
Marriage

Ok, it makes sense. Given Peter would be one around the time Peter II dies, would the succession go to Anna Ivanova, Elizabeth, who already has a male heir, or the baby Peter who is the nearest male heir?

 

[HortenseMancini]

POD here is threefold...Juan of Asturias survives his illness in 1497 and thus Margaret of Austria's first pregnancy goes well, Philip of Burgundy dies in April 1498 leaving behind a pregnant wife, and both Isabel of Aragon and Miguel da Paz survive their delivery.

HOUSE OF TRASTÁMARA
Isabella I, Queen of Castile (b. 1451, d. 1507) m. Ferdinand II, King of Aragon (b. 1453, d. 1518) in 1469, has issue

1) Isabel of Aragon and Castile, Princess of Asturias, Princess of Portugal, and Queen of Portugal (b. 1470, d. 1505) m. Afonso, Prince of Portugal (b. 1475, d. 1491) in 1490, had no issue (a); Manuel I, King of Portugal (b. 1469) in 1497, had issue (b)​

1b) Miguel I, King of Spain (b. 1498) m. Isabel II, Queen of Spain (b. 1498) in 1512, had issue​

2b) Isabel of Portugal, Queen of England (b. 1501) m. Henry VIII Tudor, King of England (b. 1491) in 1515, had issue​

3b) Beatriz of Portugal, Duchess of Viseu (b. 1503)​

4b) Fernando of Portugal, Duke of Beja (b. 1504, d. 1506)​

2) Juan of Aragon and Castile, Prince of Asturias and Girona (b. 1478, d. 1506) m. Margaret of Austria (b. 1480) in 1497, had issue​

1) Isabella II, Queen of Spain (b. 1498) m. Miguel I, King of Spain (b. 1498) in 1512, had issue​

2) Ferdinand of Aragon and Castile (b. 1500, d. 1502)​

3) Maria of Aragon and Castile, Holy Roman Empress (b. 1501, d. 1522) m. Frederick IV, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1498) in 1517, had issue​

4) Blanca of Aragon and Castile, Duchess of Savoy (b. 1503, d. 1537) m. Charles III, Duke of Savoy (b. 1503) in 1521, had issue​

5) Catalina of Aragon and Castile, Queen of Naples (b. 1505) m. Ferdinand III, King of Naples (b. 1489) in 1525, had issue​

6) John III “the Posthumous”, King of Castile (b. and d. 1507)​

3) Juana of Aragon and Castile, Duchess of Burgundy (b. 1479, d. 1503) m. Philip of Austria, Duke of Burgundy (b. 1478) in 1496, had issue​

1) Frederick IV, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1498) m. Maria of Spain (b. 1501, d. 1522) in 1522, had issue (a); Anna of Hungary and Bohemia (b. 1503) in 1523, had issue (b)​

4) Maria of Aragon and Castile, Duchess of Savoy (twin of stillborn child; b. 1482) m. Philibert II, Duke of Savoy (b. 1480, d. 1504) in 1500, had issue​

1) Charles III, Duke of Savoy (b. 1502) m. Blanca of Spain (b. 1503) in 1521, had issue​

2) Louis of Savoy (b. and d. 1503)​

3) Amadeus of Savoy (b. 1504, d. 1505)​

5) Stillborn child (twin of Maria; b. and d. 1482)​

6) Catalina of Aragon and Castile, Princess of Wales and Queen of Portugal (b. 1485) m. Arthur Tudor, Prince of Wales (b. 1486) in 1502, had no issue (a); Manuel I, King of Portugal (b. 1469) in 1507, had issue (b)​

1b) Afonso of Portugal (b. 1509)​

2b) Henrique of Portugal (b. 1512)​

3b) Maria of Portugal (b. and d. 1513)​

4b) Duarte of Portugal, 4th Duke of Guimarães (b. 1515) m. Isabel of Braganza (b. 1514) in 1536, had issue​

5b) Antonio of Portugal (b. and d. 1516)​

6b) Stillborn daughter (b. and d. 1518)​

 

[isabella]

POD here is threefold...Juan of Asturias survives his illness in 1497 and thus Margaret of Austria's first pregnancy goes well, Philip of Burgundy dies in April 1498 leaving behind a pregnant wife, and both Isabel of Aragon and Miguel da Paz survive their delivery.

HOUSE OF TRASTÁMARA
Isabella I, Queen of Castile (b. 1451, d. 1507) m. Ferdinand II, King of Aragon (b. 1453, d. 1518) in 1469, has issue

1) Isabel of Aragon and Castile, Princess of Asturias, Princess of Portugal, and Queen of Portugal (b. 1470, d. 1505) m. Afonso, Prince of Portugal (b. 1475, d. 1491) in 1490, had no issue (a); Manuel I, King of Portugal (b. 1469) in 1497, had issue (b)​

1b) Miguel I, King of Spain (b. 1498) m. Isabel II, Queen of Spain (b. 1498) in 1512, had issue​

2b) Isabel of Portugal, Queen of England (b. 1501) m. Henry VIII Tudor, King of England (b. 1491) in 1515, had issue​

3b) Beatriz of Portugal, Duchess of Viseu (b. 1503)​

4b) Fernando of Portugal, Duke of Beja (b. 1504, d. 1506)​

2) Juan of Aragon and Castile, Prince of Asturias and Girona (b. 1478, d. 1506) m. Margaret of Austria (b. 1480) in 1497, had issue​

1) Isabella II, Queen of Spain (b. 1498) m. Miguel I, King of Spain (b. 1498) in 1512, had issue​

2) Ferdinand of Aragon and Castile (b. 1500, d. 1502)​

3) Maria of Aragon and Castile, Holy Roman Empress (b. 1501, d. 1522) m. Frederick IV, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1498) in 1517, had issue​

4) Blanca of Aragon and Castile, Duchess of Savoy (b. 1503, d. 1537) m. Charles III, Duke of Savoy (b. 1503) in 1521, had issue​

5) Catalina of Aragon and Castile, Queen of Naples (b. 1505) m. Ferdinand III, King of Naples (b. 1489) in 1525, had issue​

6) John III “the Posthumous”, King of Castile (b. and d. 1507)​

3) Juana of Aragon and Castile, Duchess of Burgundy (b. 1479, d. 1503) m. Philip of Austria, Duke of Burgundy (b. 1478) in 1496, had issue​

1) Frederick IV, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1498) m. Maria of Spain (b. 1501, d. 1522) in 1522, had issue (a); Anna of Hungary and Bohemia (b. 1503) in 1523, had issue (b)​

4) Maria of Aragon and Castile, Duchess of Savoy (twin of stillborn child; b. 1482) m. Philibert II, Duke of Savoy (b. 1480, d. 1504) in 1500, had issue​

1) Charles III, Duke of Savoy (b. 1502) m. Blanca of Spain (b. 1503) in 1521, had issue​

2) Louis of Savoy (b. and d. 1503)​

3) Amadeus of Savoy (b. 1504, d. 1505)​

5) Stillborn child (twin of Maria; b. and d. 1482)​

6) Catalina of Aragon and Castile, Princess of Wales and Queen of Portugal (b. 1485) m. Arthur Tudor, Prince of Wales (b. 1486) in 1502, had no issue (a); Manuel I, King of Portugal (b. 1469) in 1507, had issue (b)​

1b) Afonso of Portugal (b. 1509)​

2b) Henrique of Portugal (b. 1512)​

3b) Maria of Portugal (b. and d. 1513)​

4b) Duarte of Portugal, 4th Duke of Guimarães (b. 1515) m. Isabel of Braganza (b. 1514) in 1536, had issue​

5b) Antonio of Portugal (b. and d. 1516)​

6b) Stillborn daughter (b. and d. 1518)​

Why Frederick for Joanna’s son? Maximilian, Philip or Charles would be all more logical names... and in the scenario Henry VIII would marry Catalina in 1505 not waiting for a girl 10 years younger than him or marry a French princess closer to his age like Marguerite d’Angouleme or Germaine of Foix... In alternative if Henry VII want absolutely a daughter-in-law with Lancastrian blood, Maximilian has three nieces around the right age in Bavaria to offer (and Henry VII will search there and not in Spain another bride for his second son). Plus Isabella of Aragon and Castile here need to be called simply Queen of Portugal and the same for Catalina as they will lost any title from their first wedding once remarrying (unless they married lower)
Another thing: why Maria of Spain and not Mary Tudor as first wife for Philip and Joanna’s son? The English princess would make much more sense than the Spanish one as both age and alliance

 

[Valena]

Ok, it makes sense. Given Peter would be one around the time Peter II dies, would the succession go to Anna Ivanova, Elizabeth, who already has a male heir, or the baby Peter who is the nearest male heir?

In fact, death of Peter II on OTL schedule is highly unlikely there, since at least one of companions of his hunts would be out of Russia, the hunting schedule would get organized differently and he may not contact smallpox.

 

[kasumigenx]

@isabella
Matilda of Canossa m. Godfrey the Hunchback(a) m. Robert Curthose(b)
1b. Boniface IV b. 1078 m. Isabella of Burgundy(Anscarid)
2b. Matilda of Tuscany b. 1083 m. Henry V, Holy Roman Emperor
3b. Guiglielmo b. 1093 m. Matilda I of England

 

[Kynan]

Scenario: Henry VIII has two daughters by Catherine of Aragon.

Henry VIII, King of England and Ireland (b.1491: d.1547) m. Catherine, Infanta of Aragon and Castile (b.1485: d.1536) (a), Anne Boleyn (b.1501/1507: d.1536) (b), Jane Seymour (b.1508: d.1537) (c), Anne of Cleves (b.1515: d.1558) (d), Catherine Howard (b.1520/1524: d.1542) (e), Catherine Parr (b.1512: d.1548) (f)

1a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1510)​

​

2a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1511: d.1511)​

​

3a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1513: d.1513)​

​

4a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1515: d.1515)​

​

5a) Mary I, Queen of England (b.1516: d.1558) m. Philip II, King of Spain (b.1527: d.1598) (a)​

​

- had no issue​

​

6a) Margaret I, Queen of England (b.1518: d.1575) m. Ferdinand, Archduke of Austria (b.1529: d.1595) (a)​

​

1a) Charles I, King of England and Ireland, Duke of Burgundy (b.1554: d.1620) m. Marguerite, Princess of France (b.1553: d.1615) (a)​

​

1a) Henry IX, King of England (b.1576)​

​

2a) Stillborn Son (c.1578)​

​

3a) Miscarriage (c.1580)​

​

2a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1555)​

​

3a) Mary von Hapsburg, Princess of England and Ireland (b.1556: d.1603) m. James VI, King of Scotland (b.1562: d.1597) (a)​

​

1a) Stillborn Son (c.1580)​

​

2a) Margaret von Hapsburg, Princess of Scotland (b.1581: d.1586)​

​

3a) Miscarriage (c.1582)​

​

4a) Miscarriage (c.1585)​

​

5a) James VII, King of Scotland (b.1586)​

​

6a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1587)​

​

7a) Eleanor von Hapsburg, Princess of Scotland (b.1588: d.1590)​

​

8a) Miscarriage (c.1590)​

​

9a) Mary von Hapsburg, Princess of Scotland (b.1591)​

​

10a) Stillborn Son (c.1592)​

​

11a) Stillborn Son (c.1592)​

​

12a) John von Hapsburg, Duke of Albany (b.1593: d.1595)​

​

4a) Edward von Hapsburg, Duke of York (b.1558: d.1600) m. Margaret von Hapsburg, Princess of Scotland (b.1564: d.1630) (a)​

​

1a) Ferdinand von Hapsburg, Duke of York (b.1582)​

​

2a) Stillborn Son (c.1583)​

​

3a) Elizabeth von Hapsburg of York (b.1585)​

​

4a) Joanna von Hapsburg of York (b.1588)​

​

5a) Charles von Hapsburg, Earl of Pembroke (b.1591)​

​

6a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1592)​

​

7a) Barbara von Hapsburg of York (b.1593)​

​

8a) Catherine von Hapsburg of York (b.1595: d.1595)​

​

9a) Ursula von Hapsburg of York (b.1598)​

​

7b) Elizabeth Tudor (b.1533: d.1603) m. Emmanuel Philibert, Duke of Savoy (b.1528: d.1580) (a)​

​

1a) Stillborn Son (c.1557)​

​

2a) Charles IV, Duke of Savoy (b.1558: d.1611) m. Catherine, Princess of Navarre (b.1559: d.1604) (a), Eleonore de Bourbon-Conde (b.1587: d.1619) (a)​

​

1b) Henri I, Duke of Savoy (b.1604)​

​

2b) Marie Eleonore of Savoy (b.1607)​

​

3b) Jean-Philibert of Savoy (b.1610)​

​

3a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1560)​

​

4a) Ludovico Philibert of Savoy, Count of Tonnere (b.1564: d.1640) m. Helen Seymour (b.1576: d.1635) (a)​

​

1a) Elizabeth of Savoy (b.1593)​

​

2a) Charles Philip of Savoy, Count of Tonnere (b.1594)​

​

3a) Jeanne of Savoy (b.1595)​

​

4a) Eleonore of Savoy (b.1596)​

​

5a) Thomas of Savoy (b.1597)​

​

6a) Catherine of Savoy (b.1599)​

​

7a) Charlotte of Savoy (b.1601)​

​

8a) Ludovico of Savoy (b.1602)​

​

9a) Anne of Savoy (b.1603)​

​

10a) Nicholas of Savoy (b.1606)​

​

11a) Francis of Savoy (b.1607)​

​

12a) Victorie of Savoy (b.1609)​

​

13a) Ursula of Savoy (b.1611)​

​

8b) Stillborn Son (c.1534)​

​

9b) Miscarriage (c.1536)​

​

10c) Edward VI, King of England (b.1537: d.1553)​

​

Some Things That Happened:

• Upon their sister's accession, Margaret and Elizabeth (I know it's more likely to be switched ATL but for the sake of simplicity here it is) are both on the marriage market and Margaret, being Mary's favoured sister as the other child of Catherine of Aragon, marries a man that allows her to stay in England, which is good as once she has her first child, a son, he becomes the next male heir and second in line after Margaret herself. Elizabeth holds out on marriage until 1556, when her niece is born and it becomes clear she is very much unlikely to ascend to the throne. With pressure on her to marry, and Margaret (the less oppressive of the two children of Catherine) encouraging her that an establishment of her own is needed, Elizabeth agrees to marry the Duke of Savoy, leaves England for a turbulent and unhappy marriage to Emmanuel Philibert, ending in a separation after the birth of a second son in 1564. Elizabeth returns to England and lives in Margaret's court as a guest.
• Margaret's own marriage to Ferdinand of Austria is equally bumpy. Unhappy to be married to an older woman, Ferdinand brings his OTL wife and ATL mistress, Philippine Welser, to England until Margaret puts her foot down. Undeterred, Ferdinand simply sets her up in Brussels, part of their son's inheritance, and spends the majority of his time there. Unlike Mary, Margaret is never enamoured with her husband, and is mostly fine with this, although she refuses her safe entry in England when he wants to bring her with him to visit his royal children.
• Margaret's early reign is a lot more stable that Mary's was. While she is a devoted Catholic, her piousness is less enthusiastic and she understands how people work, and thus simply begins to disinfranchise Protestant churches while supporting Catholic ones. Eventually, but 1567, she has excluding the majority of the Protestant nobility in England, and has even converted the Grey sisters, including the Countess of Hereford, who here is able to marry.
• This also allows her to befriend Mary I of Scotland and even support her attempts to marry the Prince of Asturias, although she heavily implies she'd prefer her to marry the Prince of Wales. Neither happen, and Mary becomes a "sister" to Margaret by marrying her husband's younger brother. The marriage is a success in that they like each other and they have five surviving children, including the Princess Margaret, the eldest daughter, who marries the Duke of York. They will have two surviving sons and four surviving daughters.
• The marriage of the Prince of Wales is more difficult to sort out for Margaret, who doesn't see the Hapsburg alliance as an essential, particularly since she wants French recognition of her son's title of Duke of Burgundy, a title the Hapsburgs threaten to snatch back after Mary's death despite Margaret's marriage contract explicitly stating it would be inherited by her son. Thus, her son marries Marguerite de Valois in 1571. Plans to marry her daughter Mary to the King of Navarre fall through, however, and Henry III of Navarre instead marries Dorothea of Lorraine in 1573 and has no children by her when the marriage is annulled upon his accession. The Prince of Wales and Marguerite de Valois will have one surviving son.
• The Princess Mary of England is betrothed to, in 1574, a year before her mother's death, the newly ascended Ferdinand I, King of Scotland. Eldest son of Mary I of Scotland, having died in childbirth to a stillborn son, and Charles of Austria, Ferdinand is twelve upon his accession, compared to the eighteen year old Mary. The two do, however, marry, with Mary giving birth twelve times, with one surviving son and one surviving daughter.
• Of Elizabeth's children, her eldest son is unmarried upon the accession of Henry IV and married in 1595 to his sister, Catherine de Bourbon, to settle French claims to Savoy. Upon her death, he remarries to Eleonore de Bourbon, sister to the Prince of Conde and cousin to the King. They have two sons and a daughter before his death in 1611. As for her younger one, he travels to England in 1582, aged 18, to take up residence in his mother's house and in 1592 marries Helen Seymour, a younger daughter of Catherine Grey and the Earl of Hereford. They have thirteen surviving children. Travelling to Brussels in 1598, he is then made the Regent for Charles I of England and, in 1610, is given the title Count of Tonnere.

 

[isabella]

Scenario: Henry VIII has two daughters by Catherine of Aragon.

Henry VIII, King of England and Ireland (b.1491: d.1547) m. Catherine, Infanta of Aragon and Castile (b.1485: d.1536) (a), Anne Boleyn (b.1501/1507: d.1536) (b), Jane Seymour (b.1508: d.1537) (c), Anne of Cleves (b.1515: d.1558) (d), Catherine Howard (b.1520/1524: d.1542) (e), Catherine Parr (b.1512: d.1548) (f)

1a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1510)​

​

2a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1511: d.1511)​

​

3a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1513: d.1513)​

​

4a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1515: d.1515)​

​

5a) Mary I, Queen of England (b.1516: d.1558) m. Philip II, King of Spain (b.1527: d.1598) (a)​

​

- had no issue​

​

6a) Margaret I, Queen of England (b.1518: d.1575) m. Ferdinand, Archduke of Austria (b.1529: d.1595) (a)​

​

1a) Charles I, King of England and Ireland, Duke of Burgundy (b.1554: d.1620) m. Marguerite, Princess of France (b.1553: d.1615) (a)​

​

1a) Henry IX, King of England (b.1576)​

​

2a) Stillborn Son (c.1578)​

​

3a) Miscarriage (c.1580)​

​

2a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1555)​

​

3a) Mary von Hapsburg, Princess of England and Ireland (b.1556: d.1603) m. James VI, King of Scotland (b.1562: d.1597) (a)​

​

1a) Stillborn Son (c.1580)​

​

2a) Margaret von Hapsburg, Princess of Scotland (b.1581: d.1586)​

​

3a) Miscarriage (c.1582)​

​

4a) Miscarriage (c.1585)​

​

5a) James VII, King of Scotland (b.1586)​

​

6a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1587)​

​

7a) Eleanor von Hapsburg, Princess of Scotland (b.1588: d.1590)​

​

8a) Miscarriage (c.1590)​

​

9a) Mary von Hapsburg, Princess of Scotland (b.1591)​

​

10a) Stillborn Son (c.1592)​

​

11a) Stillborn Son (c.1592)​

​

12a) John von Hapsburg, Duke of Albany (b.1593: d.1595)​

​

4a) Edward von Hapsburg, Duke of York (b.1558: d.1600) m. Margaret von Hapsburg, Princess of Scotland (b.1564: d.1630) (a)​

​

1a) Ferdinand von Hapsburg, Duke of York (b.1582)​

​

2a) Stillborn Son (c.1583)​

​

3a) Elizabeth von Hapsburg of York (b.1585)​

​

4a) Joanna von Hapsburg of York (b.1588)​

​

5a) Charles von Hapsburg, Earl of Pembroke (b.1591)​

​

6a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1592)​

​

7a) Barbara von Hapsburg of York (b.1593)​

​

8a) Catherine von Hapsburg of York (b.1595: d.1595)​

​

9a) Ursula von Hapsburg of York (b.1598)​

​

7b) Elizabeth Tudor (b.1533: d.1603) m. Emmanuel Philibert, Duke of Savoy (b.1528: d.1580) (a)​

​

1a) Stillborn Son (c.1557)​

​

2a) Charles IV, Duke of Savoy (b.1558: d.1611) m. Catherine, Princess of Navarre (b.1559: d.1604) (a), Eleonore de Bourbon-Conde (b.1587: d.1619) (a)​

​

1b) Henri I, Duke of Savoy (b.1604)​

​

2b) Marie Eleonore of Savoy (b.1607)​

​

3b) Jean-Philibert of Savoy (b.1610)​

​

3a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1560)​

​

4a) Ludovico Philibert of Savoy, Count of Tonnere (b.1564: d.1640) m. Helen Seymour (b.1576: d.1635) (a)​

​

1a) Elizabeth of Savoy (b.1593)​

​

2a) Charles Philip of Savoy, Count of Tonnere (b.1594)​

​

3a) Jeanne of Savoy (b.1595)​

​

4a) Eleonore of Savoy (b.1596)​

​

5a) Thomas of Savoy (b.1597)​

​

6a) Catherine of Savoy (b.1599)​

​

7a) Charlotte of Savoy (b.1601)​

​

8a) Ludovico of Savoy (b.1602)​

​

9a) Anne of Savoy (b.1603)​

​

10a) Nicholas of Savoy (b.1606)​

​

11a) Francis of Savoy (b.1607)​

​

12a) Victorie of Savoy (b.1609)​

​

13a) Ursula of Savoy (b.1611)​

​

8b) Stillborn Son (c.1534)​

​

9b) Miscarriage (c.1536)​

​

10c) Edward VI, King of England (b.1537: d.1553)​

​

Some Things That Happened:

• Upon their sister's accession, Margaret and Elizabeth (I know it's more likely to be switched ATL but for the sake of simplicity here it is) are both on the marriage market and Margaret, being Mary's favoured sister as the other child of Catherine of Aragon, marries a man that allows her to stay in England, which is good as once she has her first child, a son, he becomes the next male heir and second in line after Margaret herself. Elizabeth holds out on marriage until 1556, when her niece is born and it becomes clear she is very much unlikely to ascend to the throne. With pressure on her to marry, and Margaret (the less oppressive of the two children of Catherine) encouraging her that an establishment of her own is needed, Elizabeth agrees to marry the Duke of Savoy, leaves England for a turbulent and unhappy marriage to Emmanuel Philibert, ending in a separation after the birth of a second son in 1564. Elizabeth returns to England and lives in Margaret's court as a guest.
• Margaret's own marriage to Ferdinand of Austria is equally bumpy. Unhappy to be married to an older woman, Ferdinand brings his OTL wife and ATL mistress, Philippine Welser, to England until Margaret puts her foot down. Undeterred, Ferdinand simply sets her up in Brussels, part of their son's inheritance, and spends the majority of his time there. Unlike Mary, Margaret is never enamoured with her husband, and is mostly fine with this, although she refuses her safe entry in England when he wants to bring her with him to visit his royal children.
• Margaret's early reign is a lot more stable that Mary's was. While she is a devoted Catholic, her piousness is less enthusiastic and she understands how people work, and thus simply begins to disinfranchise Protestant churches while supporting Catholic ones. Eventually, but 1567, she has excluding the majority of the Protestant nobility in England, and has even converted the Grey sisters, including the Countess of Hereford, who here is able to marry.
• This also allows her to befriend Mary I of Scotland and even support her attempts to marry the Prince of Asturias, although she heavily implies she'd prefer her to marry the Prince of Wales. Neither happen, and Mary becomes a "sister" to Margaret by marrying her husband's younger brother. The marriage is a success in that they like each other and they have five surviving children, including the Princess Margaret, the eldest daughter, who marries the Duke of York. They will have two surviving sons and four surviving daughters.
• The marriage of the Prince of Wales is more difficult to sort out for Margaret, who doesn't see the Hapsburg alliance as an essential, particularly since she wants French recognition of her son's title of Duke of Burgundy, a title the Hapsburgs threaten to snatch back after Mary's death despite Margaret's marriage contract explicitly stating it would be inherited by her son. Thus, her son marries Marguerite de Valois in 1571. Plans to marry her daughter Mary to the King of Navarre fall through, however, and Henry III of Navarre instead marries Dorothea of Lorraine in 1573 and has no children by her when the marriage is annulled upon his accession. The Prince of Wales and Marguerite de Valois will have one surviving son.
• The Princess Mary of England is betrothed to, in 1574, a year before her mother's death, the newly ascended Ferdinand I, King of Scotland. Eldest son of Mary I of Scotland, having died in childbirth to a stillborn son, and Charles of Austria, Ferdinand is twelve upon his accession, compared to the eighteen year old Mary. The two do, however, marry, with Mary giving birth twelve times, with one surviving son and one surviving daughter.
• Of Elizabeth's children, her eldest son is unmarried upon the accession of Henry IV and married in 1595 to his sister, Catherine de Bourbon, to settle French claims to Savoy. Upon her death, he remarries to Eleonore de Bourbon, sister to the Prince of Conde and cousin to the King. They have two sons and a daughter before his death in 1611. As for her younger one, he travels to England in 1582, aged 18, to take up residence in his mother's house and in 1592 marries Helen Seymour, a younger daughter of Catherine Grey and the Earl of Hereford
• They have thirteen surviving children. Travelling to Brussels in 1598, he is then made the Regent for Charles I of England and, in 1610, is given the title Count of Tonnere.

Henry IV has no claim on Savoy as that came from the (absurde) pretenses of Louise of Savoy (who was supported by her son Francis I) and so would die out with her line (as THAT claim would be inherited without any doubt by Henry II’s eldest daughter and if she had married Philip as OTL the question was already resolved)

 

[Peppe]

POD: Maria Anna of Neuburg's disease in 1690-91 was in fact the suspected pregnancy people though it was at the time and she gives birth to a girl in 22 August, 1691 (the basis of an TL I really hope to write one day)

The Last Hapsburg of Spain and her descendants, in 1770
Maria Isabella I, Queen of Spain, etc. (b.1691:d.1756) m. Joseph I, Elector of Bavaria (b.1692:d.1733)

1) Carlos, Prince of Asturias (b.1708:d.1721)​

2) Juan I, King of Spain, etc. (b.1710:d.1768) m. Amelia, Princess of Great Britain (b.1711)​

1) Maria Dorothea, Infanta of Spain (b.1729) m. Edward, Duke of York and Albany (b.1739:d.1765)​

1) Josephine, Princess of York and Albany (b.1754)​

2) Georgiana, Princess of York and Albany (b.1756)​

3) Arthur, Duke of York and Albany (b.1759)​

2) Maria Magdalena, Infanta of Spain (b.1730) m. Honoré III, Prince of Monaco (b.1720)​

1) Honoré, Hereditary Prince of Monaco (b.1755)​

2) Marie Isabelle, Princess of Monaco (b.1757)​

3) Claudine, Princess of Monaco (b.1758)​

4) Miscarriage (1761)​

5) Louis Ercole, Prince of Monaco (b.1763)​

6) Lucien, Prince of Monaco (b.1764)​

3) Stillborn son (1732)​

4) Maria Isabella, Infanta of Spain (b.1733) m. Joseph, Heir of the Hapsburg Realms (b.1741)​

1) Stillborn son (1765)​

2/3) Stillborn twins (1766)​

4) Miscarried daughter (1767)​

5) Rudolph, Archduke of Austria (b.1768)​

6) Maria Theresa, Archduchess of Austria (b.1768)​

7) Stillborn daughter (1769)​

5) Maria Leonor, Infanta of Spain and Abbess of the Convent of Las Descalzas Reales (b.1735)​

6) Maria Josefa, Infanta of Spain (b.1737:d.1763) m. Joseph, Heir of the Hapsburg Realms (b.1741)​

7) Miguel I, King of Spain, etc. (b. 1740) m. Maria Carolina, Archduchess of Austria (b.1741:d.1757) (a), Maria Elisabeth, Archduchess of Austria (b.1743:d.1763) (b), m. Augusta, Princess of Great Britain (b.1737) (c)​

1a) Maria Isabella, Princess of Asturias (b.1757)​

1b) Maria Teófila, Infanta of Spain (b.1758:d.1761)​

2b) Maria Joaquina, Infanta of Spain (b.1758:d.1758)​

3b) Maria Carmella, Infanta of Spain (b.1759)​

4b) Maria Augusta, Infanta of Spain (b.1760)​

5b) Juan, Prince of Asturias (b.1761:d.1762)​

6b) Miscarried daughter (1762)​

67b) Maria Henriqueta, Infanta of Spain (b.1763)​

1c) Carolina, Infanta of Spain (b.1764)​

2c) Carlos, Prince of Asturias (b.1766:d.1766)​

3c) Maria Amalia, Infanta of Spain (b.1768)​

4c) George, Prince of Asturias (b.1769)​

At least 6 illegitimate children​

3) Balthazar, Infante of Spain (b.1711:d.1711)​

4) Stillborn daughter (1713)​

5) Maria Antonia, Infanta of Spain (b.1714) m. José I, King of Portugal and the Algarves (b.1714)​

1) Maria, Princess of Brazil and Duchess of Braganza (b.1734) m. Pedro, Infante of Portugal (b.1717)​

1) José, Prince of Beira and Duke of Barcelos (b.1761)​

2) Stillborn son (1762)​

3) João, Infante of Portugal (b.1763:d.1763)​

4) João, Infante of Portugal (b.1767)​

5) Maria Manuela, Infanta of Portugal (b.1768)​

2) Maria Ana Francisca, Infanta of Portugal (b.1734:d.1765) m. Louis, Dauphin of France (b.1729:d.1769)​

1) Louis Joseph, Duke of Burgundy (b.1751:d.1768) had illegitimate children​

2) Stillborn daughter (1752)​

3) Xavier, Dauphin of France (b.1753) will soon marry​

4) Louis August, Duke of Berry (b.1754)​

5) Marie Elisabeth, Fille de France (b.1755)​

6) Stillborn son (1756)​

7) Louis Charles, Duke of Provence (b.1757)​

8) Louis Cesar, Duke of Angoulême (b.1759)​

9) Stillborn daughter (1762)​

10) Stillborn daughter (1764)​

11) Elisabeth, Fille de France (b.1765)​

12) Louis Marcel, Count of Toulouse (b.1765)​

13) Henri, Count of Artois (b.1765)​

3) Stillborn son (b.1739)​

4) Maria Doroteia, Infanta of Portugal (b.1739)​

5) Stillborn daughter (1742)​

6) Stillborn daughter (1742)​

7) Stillborn daughter (1744)​

8) Maria Gertrudes, Infanta of Portugal (b.1746)​

6) Isabella, Infanta of Spain (b.1715:d.1769) m. Francesco II, Grand Duke of Tuscany (b.1722:d.1764)​

1) Cosimo IV, Grand Duke of Tuscany (b.1747) m. Marie Zéphyrine, Fille of France (b.1750)​

1) Francesca, Grand Princess of Tuscany (b.1770)​

7) Stillborn son (1716)​

8) Miscarried girl (1719)​

9) Joseph II, Elector of Bavaria (b.1720:d.1742) m. Theresa Benedicta, Princess of Bavaria (b.1725:d.1743)​

1) Ferdinand II, Elector of Bavaria (b.1743:d.1744)​

10) Miscarriage (1721)​

11) Miscarriage (1722)​

12/13) Miguel and Ferrante, Infantes of Spain (b.1722:d. 1725)​

14) Ferdinanda, Infanta of Spain (b.1723:d.1725)​

15) Victoria I, Electress of Bavaria (b.1725) m. William, Duke of Cumberland, Prince Consort of Bavaria (b.1721:d.1765)​

1) Ferdinand, Electoral Prince of Bavaria (b.1742) m. Christina, Princess of Denmark (b.1745)​

1) Joseph, Electoral Prince of Bavaria (b.1763)​

2) Rafaela, Princess of Bavaria (b.1765:d.1769)​

3) Friederike, Princess of Bavaria (b.1767)​

2) Joaquim, Prince of Bavaria (b.1745:d.1751)​

3) Maria Augusta, Princess of Bavaria (b.1746) m. Christian VII, King of Denmark (b.1749)​

1) Frederick, Crown Prince of Denmark (b.1766)​

2) Stillborn son (1767)​

3) Magnus, Hereditary Prince of Denmark (b.1768)​

4) Maria Wilhelmina, Princess of Denmark (b.1768)​

5) Miscarriage (1769)​

4) Joseph, Prince of Bavaria (b.1748) m. Marie Therese, Fille de France*​

16) Stillborn son (1727)​

17) Stillborn son (1728)​

18) Miscarriage (1730)​

19) Maria Giovanna, Infanta of Spain (b.1731) m. Henry Benedict Stuart, Grand Duke of Guadalajara and Duke of Connaught (b.1725)​

1) Stillborn daughter (1748)​

2) Stillborn daughter (1748)​

3/4) Stillborn twins (1749)​

5) Miscarriage (1749)​

6) Juana, Infanta of New Spain (b.1750)​

7) Stillborn son (1751)​

8) Henry Miguel, Infante of New Spain (b.1752)​

9) Thomas, Infante of New Spain (b.1752)​

10) Miscarriage (1754)​

11) Maria Antonia, Infanta of New Spain (b.1755)​

12) Leander, Infante of New Spain (b.13 March 1756)​

13) Isidore, Infante of New Spain (b.4 April 1756)​

Main things on this line

- Due to worries about legitimacy (since Carlos II was still incredibly inbred and the child didn't show the Hapsburg Jaw, in this case because of it being small enough that without really paying attention and known where to look for you wouldn't notice), when she is 6 and he is 5, Maria Isabella and Joseph Ferdinand of Bavaria are married by proxy (they redo the ceremony on the same place that Philip IV of Spain married his niece nearly 60 years before in 1708)​

- The War of the Spanish Succession still occurs, lasting from 1701 to 1716, and is at the start between Maria Isabella and the OTL Philip V of Spain but after shenanigans that can be roughly boiled down to MI deposing her own mother, the pro-Austrian Maria Anna of Neuburg, at the age of 12, Holy Roman Emperor Leopold ends up abandoning her side and propping up his second son, Charles (later Holy Roman Emperor). In the end she wins and the government of Spain is more centralized (Aragon rising in rebellion and being brutally crushed helped) but they end up losing Naples (Philip) and Milan (Charles), and Maria Isabella develops a deep-seethed mistrust of both the French and the Austrians, and ends up in fact pursuing a pro-British and pro-Dutch stance due to a mix of strategy and sentimentalism (as both supported her during the entire war), and after years of slowly chipping at the sides she ends up getting royal marriages with the House of Hanover​

- The Spanish Empire passes by a bunch of reforms both home and abroad (includes the Prince of Asturias being sent to learn ruling by serving as Viceroy of New Spain and the crown taking most of the power from the Church using a mix of threats (she is cozying with some of Europe's major protestant powers) and soft power)​

- Gian Gastone of Tuscany, while gay, ends up having a single son out of sheer spite (he took some twisted joy in seeing that his hated father and brother would see the line of the House of Medici continue through him), and he and his wife tried to make their marriage work instead of despising each other completely.​

- Due to Maximilian II Emanuel supporting the Austrian claim during the War of Succession, his first son despised him and had a barely civil relationship with his half-siblings, after Joseph's death, his second living son inherits the Electorate and is strong-armed by his half-uncle (OTL Charles VII) to marry one of his (the uncle's) daughters. Not in fact fond of his uncle, he writes on his will that in the case of him dying without heirs, the Electorate should pass to his sister (who had moved with him to Bavaria), Victoria. He has a posthumous son and Charles VII uses the him (and the fact that he still manages to get the position of Holy Roman Emperor) to disregard Victoria's claim after said posthumous son dies infancy. Because of that, at the same time that the War of the Austrian Succession is ravaging Europe, there is also an War of Bavarian Succession at the same time, which ends up in fact rekindling the relationship between the Austrian and Spanish Hapsburgs​

- Cardinal-Duke Henry of York, unlike OTL, does not become a member of the clergy, and instead ends up marrying Maria Isabella's youngest daughter, Maria Giovanna, he also formally abdicates any claim he has to the British throne in the 1750s after years of negotiation (while his brother still goes on with the Jacobite Rebellions). After marrying, the couple is sent to serve as Royal Viceroys (since the Prince of Asturias can't stay in New Spain until his mother dies) and end up liking Mexico so much they decide to live there even after the end of the Viceroyship (which inspires Maria Isabella to create the new title of "Infante of New Spain" to their children) - The birth dates of the last boys of their marriage are not an error, they are the feast days of St. Leander and Isidore (brothers who lived in the 6th century Iberia), reason for their names, and are in fact a case of the rare "delayed interval delivery" a real thing that can happen in which twins are born separately (the longest time was two twin girls who were born with an interval of 87 days between them in 2012)​

* She is the daughter of Louis the Dauphin from his first marriage, just as Marie Zéphyrine is his daughter from his second marriage (Maria Josepha of Saxony ended up dying in childbirth)​

 

[isabella]

POD: Maria Anna of Neuburg's disease in 1690-91 was in fact the suspected pregnancy people though it was at the time and she gives birth to a girl in 22 August, 1691 (the basis of an TL I really hope to write one day)

The Last Hapsburg of Spain and her descendants, in 1770
Maria Isabella I, Queen of Spain, etc. (b.1691:d.1756) m. Joseph I, Elector of Bavaria (b.1692:d.1733)

1) Carlos, Prince of Asturias (b.1708:d.1721)​

2) Juan I, King of Spain, etc. (b.1710:d.1768) m. Amelia, Princess of Great Britain (b.1711)​

1) Maria Dorothea, Infanta of Spain (b.1729) m. Edward, Duke of York (b.1739:d.1765)​

1) Josephine, Princess of York (b.1754)​

2) Georgiana, Princess of York (b.1756)​

3) Arthur, Duke of York (b.1759)​

2) Maria Magdalena, Infanta of Spain (b.1730) m. Honoré III, Prince of Monaco (b.1720)​

1) Honoré, Hereditary Prince of Monaco (b.1755)​

2) Marie Isabelle, Princess of Monaco (b.1757)​

3) Claudine, Princess of Monaco (b.1758)​

4) Miscarriage (1761)​

5) Louis Ercole, Prince of Monaco (b.1763)​

6) Lucien, Prince of Monaco (b.1764)​

3) Stillborn son (1732)​

4) Maria Isabella, Infanta of Spain (b.1733) m. Joseph, Heir of the Hapsburg Realms (b.1741)​

1) Stillborn son (1765)​

2/3) Stillborn twins (1766)​

4) Miscarried daughter (1767)​

5) Rudolph, Archduke of Austria (b.1768)​

6) Maria Theresa, Archduchess of Austria (b.1768)​

7) Stillborn daughter (1769)​

5) Maria Leonor, Infanta of Spain and Abbess of the Convent of Las Descalzas Reales (b.1735)​

6) Maria Josefa, Infanta of Spain (b.1737:d.1763) m. Joseph, Heir of the Hapsburg Realms (b.1741)​

7) Miguel I, King of Spain, etc. (b. 1740) m. Maria Carolina, Archduchess of Austria (b.1741:d.1757) (a), Maria Elisabeth, Archduchess of Austria (b.1743:d.1763) (b), m. Augusta, Princess of Great Britain (b.1737) (c)​

1a) Maria Isabella, Princess of Asturias (b.1757)​

1b) Maria Teófila, Infanta of Spain (b.1758:d.1761)​

2b) Maria Joaquina, Infanta of Spain (b.1758:d.1758)​

3b) Maria Carmella, Infanta of Spain (b.1759)​

4b) Maria Augusta, Infanta of Spain (b.1760)​

5b) Juan, Prince of Asturias (b.1761:d.1762)​

6b) Miscarried daughter (1762)​

67b) Maria Henriqueta, Infanta of Spain (b.1763)​

1c) Carolina, Infanta of Spain (b.1764)​

2c) Carlos, Prince of Asturias (b.1766:d.1766)​

3c) Maria Amalia, Infanta of Spain (b.1768)​

4c) George, Prince of Asturias (b.1769)​

At least 6 illegitimate children​

3) Balthazar, Infante of Spain (b.1711:d.1711)​

4) Stillborn daughter (1713)​

5) Maria Antonia, Infanta of Spain (b.1714) m. José I, King of Portugal and the Algarves (b.1714)​

1) Maria, Princess of Brazil and Duchess of Braganza (b.1734) m. Pedro, Infante of Brazil (b.1717)​

1) José, Prince of Beira and Duke of Barcelos (b.1761)​

2) Stillborn son (1762)​

3) João, Infante of Portugal (b.1763:d.1763)​

4) João, Infante of Portugal (b.1767)​

5) Maria Manuela, Infanta of Portugal (b.1768)​

2) Maria Ana Francisca, Infanta of Portugal (b.1734:d.1765) m. Louis, Dauphin of France (b.1729:d.1769)​

1) Louis Joseph, Duke of Burgundy (b.1751:d.1768) had illegitimate children​

2) Stillborn daughter (1752)​

3) Xavier, Dauphin of France (b.1753) will soon marry​

4) Louis August, Duke of Berry (b.1754)​

5) Marie Elisabeth, Fille de France (b.1755)​

6) Stillborn son (1756)​

7) Louis Charles, Duke of Provence (b.1757)​

8) Louis Cesar, Duke of Angoulême (b.1759)​

9) Stillborn daughter (1762)​

10) Stillborn daughter (1764)​

11) Elisabeth, Fille de France (b.1765)​

12) Louis Marcel, Count of Toulouse (b.1765)​

13) Henri, Count of Artois (b.1765)​

3) Stillborn son (b.1739)​

4) Maria Doroteia, Infanta of Portugal (b.1739)​

5) Stillborn daughter (1742)​

6) Stillborn daughter (1742)​

7) Stillborn daughter (1744)​

8) Maria Gertrudes, Infanta of Portugal (b.1746)​

6) Isabella, Infanta of Spain (b.1715:d.1769) m. Francesco II, Grand Duke of Tuscany (b.1722:d.1764)​

1) Cosimo IV, Grand Duke of Tuscany (b.1747) m. Marie Zéphyrine, Fille of France (b.1750)​

1) Francesca, Grand Princess of Tuscany (b.1770)​

7) Stillborn son (1716)​

8) Miscarried girl (1719)​

9) Joseph II, Elector of Bavaria (b.1720:d.1742) m. Theresa Benedicta, Princess of Bavaria (b.1725:d.1743)​

1) Ferdinand II, Elector of Bavaria (b.1743:d.1744)​

10) Miscarriage (1721)​

11) Miscarriage (1722)​

12/13) Miguel and Ferrante, Infantes of Spain (b.1722:d. 1725)​

14) Ferdinanda, Infanta of Spain (b.1723:d.1725)​

15) Victoria I, Electress of Bavaria (b.1725) m. William, Duke of Cumberland, Prince Consort of Bavaria (b.1721:d.1765)​

1) Ferdinand, Electoral Prince of Bavaria (b.1742) m. Christina, Princess of Denmark (b.1745)​

1) Joseph, Electoral Prince of Bavaria (b.1763)​

2) Rafaela, Princess of Bavaria (b.1765:d.1769)​

3) Friederike, Princess of Bavaria (b.1767)​

2) Joaquim, Prince of Bavaria (b.1745:d.1751)​

3) Maria Augusta, Princess of Bavaria (b.1746) m. Christian VII, King of Denmark (b.1749)​

1) Frederick, Crown Prince of Denmark (b.1766)​

2) Stillborn son (1767)​

3) Magnus, Hereditary Prince of Denmark (b.1768)​

4) Maria Wilhelmina, Princess of Denmark (b.1768)​

5) Miscarriage (1769)​

4) Joseph, Prince of Bavaria (b.1748) m. Marie Therese, Fille de France*​

16) Stillborn son (1727)​

17) Stillborn son (1728)​

18) Miscarriage (1730)​

19) Maria Giovanna, Infanta of Spain (b.1731) m. Henry Benedict Stuart, Grand Duke of Guadalajara and Duke of Connaught (b.1725)​

1) Stillborn daughter (1748)​

2) Stillborn daughter (1748)​

3/4) Stillborn twins (1749)​

5) Miscarriage (1749)​

6) Juana, Infanta of New Spain (b.1750)​

7) Stillborn son (1751)​

8) Henry Miguel, Infante of New Spain (b.1752)​

9) Thomas, Infante of New Spain (b.1752)​

10) Miscarriage (1754)​

11) Maria Antonia, Infanta of New Spain (b.1755)​

12) Leander, Infante of New Spain (b.13 March 1756)​

13) Isidore, Infante of New Spain (b.4 April 1756)​

Main things on this line

- Due to worries about legitimacy (since Carlos II was still incredibly inbred and the child didn't show the Hapsburg Jaw, in this case because of it being small enough that without really paying attention and known where to look for you wouldn't notice), when she is 6 and he is 5, Maria Isabella and Joseph Ferdinand of Bavaria are married by proxy (they redo the ceremony on the same place that Philip IV of Spain married his niece nearly 60 years before in 1708)​

- The War of the Spanish Succession still occurs, lasting from 1701 to 1716, and is at the start between Maria Isabella and the OTL Philip V of Spain but after shenanigans that can be roughly boiled down to MI deposing her own mother, the pro-Austrian Maria Anna of Neuburg, at the age of 12, Holy Roman Emperor Leopold ends up abandoning her side and propping up his second son, Charles (later Holy Roman Emperor). In the end she wins and the government of Spain is more centralized (Aragon rising in rebellion and being brutally crushed helped) but they end up losing Naples (Philip) and Milan (Charles), and Maria Isabella develops a deep-seethed mistrust of both the French and the Austrians, and ends up in fact pursuing a pro-British and pro-Dutch stance due to a mix of strategy and sentimentalism (as both supported her during the entire war), and after years of slowly chipping at the sides she ends up getting royal marriages with the House of Hanover​

- The Spanish Empire passes by a bunch of reforms both home and abroad (includes the Prince of Asturias being sent to learn ruling by serving as Viceroy of New Spain and the crown taking most of the power from the Church using a mix of threats (she is cozying with some of Europe's major protestant powers) and soft power)​

- Gian Gastone of Tuscany, while gay, ends up having a single son out of sheer spite (he took some twisted joy in seeing that his hated father and brother would see the line of the House of Medici continue through him), and he and his wife tried to make their marriage work instead of despising each other completely.​

- Due to Maximilian II Emanuel supporting the Austrian claim during the War of Succession, his first son despised him and had a barely civil relationship with his half-siblings, after Joseph's death, his second living son inherits the Electorate and is strong-armed by his half-uncle (OTL Charles VII) to marry one of his (the uncle's) daughters. Not in fact fond of his uncle, he writes on his will that in the case of him dying without heirs, the Electorate should pass to his sister (who had moved with him to Bavaria), Victoria. He has a posthumous son and Charles VII uses the him (and the fact that he still manages to get the position of Holy Roman Emperor) to disregard Victoria's claim after said posthumous son dies infancy. Because of that, at the same time that the War of the Austrian Succession is ravaging Europe, there is also an War of Bavarian Succession at the same time, which ends up in fact rekindling the relationship between the Austrian and Spanish Hapsburgs​

- Cardinal-Duke Henry of York, unlike OTL, does not become a member of the clergy, and instead ends up marrying Maria Isabella's youngest daughter, Maria Giovanna, he also formally abdicates any claim he has to the British throne in the 1750s after years of negotiation (while his brother still goes on with the Jacobite Rebellions). After marrying, the couple is sent to serve as Royal Viceroys (since the Prince of Asturias can't stay in New Spain until his mother dies) and end up liking Mexico so much they decide to live there even after the end of the Viceroyship (which inspires Maria Isabella to create the new title of "Infante of New Spain" to their children) - The birth dates of the last boys of their marriage are not an error, they are the feast days of St. Leander and Isidore (brothers who lived in the 6th century Iberia), reason for their names, and are in fact a case of the rare "delayed interval delivery" a real thing that can happen in which twins are born separately (the longest time was two twin girls who were born with an interval of 87 days between them in 2012)​

* She is the daughter of Louis the Dauphin from his first marriage, just as Marie Zéphyrine is his daughter from his second marriage (Maria Josepha of Saxony ended up dying in childbirth)​

I think would be better for everyone having Maria Isabella who would likely rule as Isabella II marrying Archduke Charles who is a) an indisputable Habsburg, b) has no land of his own to inherit c) being a descendant of Leopold’s third wedding is both much less inbreed than the sons of Maria Antonia AND nephew of Queen Maria Anna.
With Maria Isabella, who is at least the officially recognized daughter of Charles II married to Charles of Austria the Spanish succession is locked without any need to settle it by anyone foreign...

 

[Peppe]

I think would be better for everyone having Maria Isabella who would likely rule as Isabella II marrying Archduke Charles who is a) an indisputable Habsburg, b) has no land of his own to inherit c) being a descendant of Leopold’s third wedding is both much less inbreed than the sons of Maria Antonia AND nephew of Queen Maria Anna.
With Maria Isabella, who is at least the officially recognized daughter of Charles II married to Charles of Austria the Spanish succession is locked without any need to settle it by anyone foreign...

My reasoning for having her marry Joseph was because I think Queen Maria Anna would probably not be sure about the paternity of her granddaughter, and so would prefer to have her female-line grandson be the girl's husband as a guarantee that her line would be the one in the throne (she lived a bit longer and spent her last years wearing-down her son and brother to accept the idea), and also because they are of similar age (I known Archduke Charles was only 6 years older than her, but it still irks me a bit).
The War of the Spanish Succession would happen no matter what, so this time instead of being due to a succession crisis, is due to Maria Isabella's questionable paternity, which is used as an excuse by the French (got'a have those Netherlands) to start the war and later taken by the Austrian Hapsburgs after their falling out, with they also saying that even if nonetheless Joseph would be the heir if Maria Isabella wasn't Carlos' daughter, he's just a boy, and so their older and more mature claimants should obviously be considered the rightful rulers by "sheer capacity", they also said things like "he already has Bavaria to look forward, why does he need Spain?")

Inbreeding is, admittedly, a concern (even more since she is in fact Carlos' daughter), but I think Maria Anna of Neuburg's not being closely-related to Carlos and Joseph's father being his mother's 3rd cousin or something would curb those problems, and the marriages completely outside of the traditional pool of candidates would solve any remaining issues. Maria Isabella's reign is a bit like if you mixed Maria Theresa and the Spanish Bourbon's reforms and centralization of power and lowered drastically the religiosity and piety (she was never that trustful of the Church since some parts of the Spanish Clergy supported her enemies against her claim)

 

[Wendell]

I don't see Bavaria allowing female succession.

 

[isabella]

My reasoning for having her marry Joseph was because I think Queen Maria Anna would probably not be sure about the paternity of her granddaughter, and so would prefer to have her female-line grandson be the girl's husband as a guarantee that her line would be the one in the throne (she lived a bit longer and spent her last years wearing-down her son and brother to accept the idea), and also because they are of similar age (I known Archduke Charles was only 6 years older than her, but it still irks me a bit).
The War of the Spanish Succession would happen no matter what, so this time instead of being due to a succession crisis, is due to Maria Isabella's questionable paternity, which is used as an excuse by the French (got'a have those Netherlands) to start the war and later taken by the Austrian Hapsburgs after their falling out, with they also saying that even if nonetheless Joseph would be the heir if Maria Isabella wasn't Carlos' daughter, he's just a boy, and so their older and more mature claimants should obviously be considered the rightful rulers by "sheer capacity", they also said things like "he already has Bavaria to look forward, why does he need Spain?")

Inbreeding is, admittedly, a concern (even more since she is in fact Carlos' daughter), but I think Maria Anna of Neuburg's not being closely-related to Carlos and Joseph's father being his mother's 3rd cousin or something would curb those problems, and the marriages completely outside of the traditional pool of candidates would solve any remaining issues. Maria Isabella's reign is a bit like if you mixed Maria Theresa and the Spanish Bourbon's reforms and centralization of power and lowered drastically the religiosity and piety (she was never that trustful of the Church since some parts of the Spanish Clergy supported her enemies against her claim)

Charles is first cousin (and first cousin once removed and second cousin) of his proposed bride while Joseph’s relations is more complex, plus Joseph’s mother is much more imbreed than her uncle Carlos II (being born from another uncle/niece marriage). Maria Anna would NEVER be so stupid to put in discussion her granddaughter‘s paternity AND marrying the girl in the Austrian branch of the Habsburg would be more necessary with whispers about the girl’s paternity. Plus I think you do not have clear Joseph’s parentage because he is the female line great-grandson of Maria Anna and the female line grandson of Leopold. And I do not believe who Maria Anna would favored Joseph over Charles of Austria as husband for Isabella as Charles was the best choice overall (direct Habsburg, with more powerful backing, without any lands of his own, older but not too much) as she earlier was firmly against a match between Carlos II and Maria Antonia (her grandaughter/niece and mother of Joseph)

 

[Peppe]

I don't see Bavaria allowing female succession.

I did say there was an war of succession to solve the matter (and it really helped that Austria also had a beef with Charles VII and so supported Victoria's caim)

Charles is first cousin (and first cousin once removed and second cousin) of his proposed bride while Joseph’s relations is more complex, plus Joseph’s mother is much more imbreed than her uncle Carlos II (being born from another uncle/niece marriage). Maria Anna would NEVER be so stupid to put in discussion her granddaughter‘s paternity AND marrying the girl in the Austrian branch of the Habsburg would be more necessary with whispers about the girl’s paternity. Plus I think you do not have clear Joseph’s parentage because he is the female line great-grandson of Maria Anna and the female line grandson of Leopold. And I do not believe who Maria Anna would favored Joseph over Charles of Austria as husband for Isabella as Charles was the best choice overall (direct Habsburg, with more powerful backing, without any lands of his own, older but not too much) as she earlier was firmly against a match between Carlos II and Maria Antonia (her grandaughter/niece and mother of Joseph)

I never said she would put the girl's paternity in discussion, I just said she would be suspicious enough to think of an way of guaranteeing her blood would remain ruling Spain. About Charles of Austria and Joseph, I did it basically as a reference to the OTL dispute Mariana had with her son's wife on the matter of succession, since she defended Joseph's inheritance of Spain while the pro-Austrian Maria Anna seems to have defended the Austrian claim (so much that the idea of Joseph inheriting was widely supported by those unhappy with Maria Anna of Neuburg's German clique), and that's also a reason why I think she would defend Joseph marrying Maria Isabella. While, again, inbreeding would be an worry, I think Mariana and many others would be less worried about it since while Joseph's mother was more inbred than Charles II (I didn't think about that. seriously, how she ended up a normal adult is a surprise, together with her being even fertile), his father's closest relation to her was that his paternal grandmother was her great-aunt while one of his maternal great-grandmothers was a daughter of Philip II, her great-great-grandfather, meaning that at its closes they were second cousins and third cousins, which if my understanding of inbreeding is correct, means that their shared genetic material is minor enough (between 3.125 to .391) to not cause problems)

 

[isabella]

I did say there was an war of succession to solve the matter (and it really helped that Austria also had a beef with Charles VII and so supported Victoria's caim)

I never said she would put the girl's paternity in discussion, I just said she would be suspicious enough to think of an way of guaranteeing her blood would remain ruling Spain. About Charles of Austria and Joseph, I did it basically as a reference to the OTL dispute Mariana had with her son's wife on the matter of succession, since she defended Joseph's inheritance of Spain while the pro-Austrian Maria Anna seems to have defended the Austrian claim (so much that the idea of Joseph inheriting was widely supported by those unhappy with Maria Anna of Neuburg's German clique), and that's also a reason why I think she would defend Joseph marrying Maria Isabella. While, again, inbreeding would be an worry, I think Mariana and many others would be less worried about it since while Joseph's mother was more inbred than Charles II (I didn't think about that. seriously, how she ended up a normal adult is a surprise, together with her being even fertile), his father's closest relation to her was that his paternal grandmother was her great-aunt while one of his maternal great-grandmothers was a daughter of Philip II, her great-great-grandfather, meaning that at its closes they were second cousins and third cousins, which if my understanding of inbreeding is correct, means that their shared genetic material is minor enough (between 3.125 to .391) to not cause problems)

Inheritance and marriage were two very different things and while Mariana in OTL supported Joseph’s right to succeed, she also was against a wedding between Charles II and Maria Antonia (either because she wanted marry her son earlier to another older girl or because she wanted preserve her bloodline separating the lines or both). That point to the fact who she will be more amenable to a wedding between Maria Isabella and Archduke Charles, who would be the traditional one for a Spanish infanta/heiress, than to one between Maria Isabella and Joseph Ferdinand of Bavaria.
Also while Joseph’s parents were NOT so related, his genetic pool (and that of Maria Isabella) was still troubled while Charles had NO uncle/niece match in the last generations...

 

[Peppe]

Inheritance and marriage were two very different things and while Mariana in OTL supported Joseph’s right to succeed, she also was against a wedding between Charles II and Maria Antonia (either because she wanted marry her son earlier to another older girl or because she wanted preserve her bloodline separating the lines or both). That point to the fact who she will be more amenable to a wedding between Maria Isabella and Archduke Charles, who would be the traditional one for a Spanish infanta/heiress, than to one between Maria Isabella and Joseph Ferdinand of Bavaria.
Also while Joseph’s parents were NOT so related, his genetic pool (and that of Maria Isabella) was still troubled while Charles had NO uncle/niece match in the last generations...

I already got that she didn't support the marriage between her son and granddaughter, I don't get why this means she wouldn't marry her granddaughter with her great-grandson, and while the Austrians marrying the Spanish Hapsburgs was tradition, I already gave my reasons why she would prefer to marry Joseph. Inbreeding would happen either way, and Charles wouldn't be that much better in my opinion (objectively speaking he would be better, but not by a wide margin), his mother was Maria Anna of Neuburg's older sister after all, either way Maria Isabella would marry a first cousin

 

[HRH Cecily]

I've never seen a timeline for Henry VIII born a girl, thought it could be a fun lineage.

Henry VII (28 January 1457 – 21 April 1509) m. a) Elizabeth of York (b. 11 February 1466 – 11 February 1503)

1a) Arthur, Prince of Wales (d. 20 September 1486 – b. 2 April 1502) m. Catherine of Aragon (b. 16 December 1485 - d. ???)​

2a) Margaret (b. 28 November 1489 – d. ???)​

3a) Elizabeth (b. 28 June 1491 – d. ???)​

4a) Cecily (b. 2 July 1492 – d. 14 September 1495)​

5a) Mary (b. 18 March 1496 – d. ???)​

6a) Edmund (b. 21 February 1499 – d. 19 June 1500)​

7a) Katherine (d. 2 February 1503 – b. 10 February 1503)​

So the only thing I've changed is Henry being born as Elizabeth, which necessitated the Elizabeth who was born a year later being called Cecily. Assuming everything else remains very roughly like OTL history until Elizabeth of York's death in childbirth with Katherine, does this delay the Margaret-James match? Does Elizabeth take her sister's place in the match instead? Does Henry remarry?

I was going to plot out a couple generations but I realized I had no idea how this would go.

 

[isabella]

I've never seen a timeline for Henry VIII born a girl, thought it could be a fun lineage.

Henry VII (28 January 1457 – 21 April 1509) m. a) Elizabeth of York (b. 11 February 1466 – 11 February 1503)

1a) Arthur, Prince of Wales (d. 20 September 1486 – b. 2 April 1502) m. Catherine of Aragon (b. 16 December 1485 - d. ???)​

2a) Margaret (b. 28 November 1489 – d. ???)​

3a) Elizabeth (b. 28 June 1491 – d. ???)​

4a) Cecily (b. 2 July 1492 – d. 14 September 1495)​

5a) Mary (b. 18 March 1496 – d. ???)​

(6a) Edmund (b. 21 February 1499 – d. 19 June 1500)​

7a) Katherine (d. 2 February 1503 – b. 10 February 1503)​

So the only thing I've changed is Henry being born as Elizabeth, which necessitated the Elizabeth who was born a year later being called Cecily. Assuming everything else remains very roughly like OTL history until Elizabeth of York's death in childbirth with Katherine, does this delay the Margaret-James match? Does Elizabeth take her sister's place in the match instead? Does Henry remarry?

I was going to plot out a couple generations but I realized I had no idea how this would go.

Henry VII would remarry, most likely to Catherine of Aragon, and Margaret will marry James IV of Scotland as, unlike his son, Henry VII do not feared at all the chance who James and Margaret ended inheriting England AND marrying Margaret, heiress presumptive, to anyone else would be a worse choice.
Mary would be engaged and then married to OTL Charles V (as nobody would break her engagement here) and Elizabeth will most likely end either in Denmark or France (as third wife of Louis XII)

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Descendants of HRE, Maximilian I, under construction.

Maximilian I (1459-1519) Holy Roman Emperor, m. a) Mary of Burgundy (1457-1482) b) Anne of Brittany (annuled) c) Bianca Maria Sforza (1472-1511)

1a) Philip (1478-1514) Duke of Burgundy 1482, King of England iure uxoris 1512, m. a) Joanna of Castile (1479-1505) b) Elizabeth of England* (1492-)

1a) Eleanor (1498- ) m. a) Louis XII of France? b) John III of Portugal?​

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2a) Charles (1500-1502)​

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3a) Isabella (1501-) m. Christian II King of Denmark​

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4a) Charles (1503)​

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5a) Mary (1505-) m. Philip III of Savoy​

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6b) Charles (1509-1512)​

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7b) Henry IX (1511-) King of England, m. Mary of Scotland** (1516-)​

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8b) Margaret (1513-) m. Alexander IV** (1514-) King of Scotland​

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2a) Margaret (1480-1530) m. John (1478-1497)

1) John III (1498- ) King of Spain​

3a) Eleanor (1481-) m. Philibert II, Duke of Savoy (1480-)

1) Philip III (1503-) Duke of Savoy, m. Mary of Austria (1505-)​

4c) Ernest (1495-1505)

5c) Bianca (1497-1502)

6c) Kunigunde (1499-) m. Sigismund I (1467-1548) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland

7c) Rudolf II (1501-) Holy Roman Emperor 1519, m. Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (1503-)

8c) Catherine (1504-) m. Louis II (1506-) King of Bohemia and Hungary

* Daughter of Henry VII, IOTL died young. ITTL Elizabeth lives and marries Philip as his second wife, meanwhile Margaret Tudor dies in childbirth in Scotland, Henry VIII OTOH fell from horse during deer hunting and died in 1512, thus throne of England goes to Elizabeth Tudor and Philip Habsburg

** Children of John Stewart (who is ITTL King of Scotland after death of James IV) and Anne de La Tour d'Auvergne

 

[isabella]

Descendants of HRE, Maximilian I, under construction.

Maximilian I (1459-1519) Holy Roman Emperor, m. a) Mary of Burgundy (1457-1482) b) Anne of Brittany (annuled) c) Bianca Maria Sforza (1472-1511)

1a) Philip (1478-1514) Duke of Burgundy 1482, King of England iure uxoris 1512, m. a) Joanna of Castile (1479-1505) b) Elizabeth of England* (1492-)

1a) Eleanor (1498- ) m. a) Louis XII of France? b) John III of Portugal?​

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2a) Charles (1500-1502)​

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3a) Isabella (1501-) m. Christian II King of Denmark​

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4a) Charles (1503)​

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5a) Mary (1505-) m. Philip III of Savoy​

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6b) Charles (1509-1512)​

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7b) Henry IX (1511-) King of England, m. Mary of Scotland** (1516-)​

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8b) Margaret (1513-) m. Alexander IV** (1514-) King of Scotland​

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2a) Margaret (1480-1530) m. John (1478-1497)

1) John III (1498- ) King of Spain​

3a) Eleanor (1481-) m. Philibert II, Duke of Savoy (1480-)

1) Philip III (1503-) Duke of Savoy, m. Mary of Austria (1505-)​

4c) Ernest (1495-1505)

5c) Bianca (1497-1502)

6c) Kunigunde (1499-) m. Sigismund I (1467-1548) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland

7c) Rudolf II (1501-) Holy Roman Emperor 1519, m. Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (1503-)

8c) Catherine (1504-) m. Louis II (1506-) King of Bohemia and Hungary

* Daughter of Henry VII, IOTL died young. ITTL Elizabeth lives and marries Philip as his second wife, meanwhile Margaret Tudor dies in childbirth in Scotland, Henry VIII OTOH fell from horse during deer hunting and died in 1512, thus throne of England goes to Elizabeth Tudor and Philip Habsburg

** Children of John Stewart (who is ITTL King of Scotland after death of James IV) and Anne de La Tour d'Auvergne

What you think about Antoine of Lorraine for Eleanor?