I wonder how OTL equivalent of Manila will look like. Probably one of those Chinese communities. Pre-colonial Filipinos were already trading with Chinese merchants since then.
Map Thread XIX
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Skallagrim
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I love the idea, and it's a great first post.
My only point of criticism -- since you asked -- is that the very premise would mean that the name wouldn't be "Yue". That's modern Chinese. Note that the word is cognate to "Viet" (as in "Vietnam"), and indeed the peoples we now often call "Yue" were/are closely related to the Vietnamese. In Cantonese, the word is still pronounced differently (often rendered "Yuht" or "Yuet" in transliteration), and in Middle Chinese, what is now "Yue" was instead rendered "Wuat".
I personally think"Viet" or "Wiet" would be plausible, but you could also contrive something like "Wuet".
Great, it's always so nice to see an ancient East Asia map.
So, do you think their naval traditions could mean expansion through there? My first thought would be into Maritime South East Asia, maybe afterwards securing trade links with India
I need to see the maritime relations in this century in South East Asia for me to have a good answer, since the Filipinos were indianized at this point.
I think they'd do well for themselves considering the fact that they control the sea routes to and from Northern East Asia
What does this mean for their culture though? Contact with Hinduistic India is something I haven't consider yet.
I only called them because that's what they were known as and they didn't have any written language for us to know what they called themselves.
I dabbled with the idea of calling them Viet, but that would imply that they are vietnamese which I don't think is the case according to what I've read and been said to me.
Now calling them by their middle chinese name, that is better I think since that's what it sounded like at the time!
I think you could dodge the name bullet by saying the map is from an outside point of view, just like "Hungary" isn't what the Magyar nation calls itself (or, closer to home, China doesn't call itself China either)
Depending on the time frame I could see Buddhism being an Indian import that sticks, since it did quite well in China iotl. Although it would probably be very very different from Chinese Buddhism
South Asia (yes, that's a Hindu empire) in 1821 for a timeline I've been kicking around with a divergence around the 1740s/50s:
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Operation Resilience was a pyrrhic victory at best. While the Allied forces were able to advance, they didn't reach their main objective of the Vistula. Much of the frontline in Zapadoslavia switched between Allied and Soviet control for the next year. Commonwealth forces move to Finland to contest Soviet air supremacy and prepare a landing in Estonia. As for the Axis, they pulled of a daring landing in Crimea at the start of 1952, which was met with limited success. The Axis also managed to push to Moldavia. The Estonian landings would happen in mid-1952 with the Allies stuck in the coast with no way advancing inland.
By this time, the Manchester Project was in its final phase. A nuke was detonated off the coast of Scotland known as the North Sea Test, which was a success. Immediately production of these nukes began. As for the Soviets, their nuclear projects were overthrown in favor of stronger armored forces. Stalin's increasing paranoia resulted in a purge of Soviet scientists, dismissing them as Jewish spies.
Two well-respected Soviet Field Marshals (Zhukov and Rokossovsky), who commanded the Ukrainian and Polish fronts, along with a handful of generals in the Caucasian and Pacific fronts, as well as a few officials in the NKVD, wanted the war to end. The war caused millions of deaths on both sides, with the Soviet Union on the brink of collapse. All they needed was a trigger.
On the 3rd of September, one plane each took off from Helsinki and Sevastapol, dropping nuclear bombs in Pskov and Stalingrad. A later one would be dropped on Smolensk on the 10th. When news of this reached Moscow, Stalin had a stroke he would never recover from. He was officially declared dead three days later. Immediately the Party took control of the situation, with a troika between Malenkov, Khrushchev, and Beria. Molotov was notably absent, as he and his political allies staged a coup on the 7th. The bulk of the Red Army rebelled along with them. And thus the Generals' coup began.
To make it short, the Baltic Front collapsed but still remained under Party control by Timoshenko. Sporadic revolts began across the USSR, with conflict arising within the NKVD. Whilst all this was happening, dissident farmers, workers, and wounded soldiers created the Ruthenian Democratic Forces and hampered the efforts of both government and rebel forces alike. The Allies and Axis took this time to do an all-out offensive across the front. For the first time in three years, there was light at the end of the tunnel.
Is that a still united Maratha Empire/Confederacy?
Yep. The Panipat equivalent here goes in favor of the Maratha although they've been too busy to attempt projecting past Peshawar in the northwest thus far.
Something I worked on today, an map and infographic of an alternate NATO alliance:
Made using mapchart.net, Google docs slides, and easel.ly infographic maker.
Posted on my DeviantArt: https://www.deviantart.com/godemperorgillan/art/Alternate-NATO-members-843679376
Posted on my DeviantArt: https://www.deviantart.com/godemperorgillan/art/Alternate-NATO-members-843679376
Also, I've just noticed that Trinidad and Tobago isn't labelled on the map.
Has a South American state gone communist, or did the US otherwise strong arm those caribbean countries into the alliance? Cause T&T, DR, and Jamaica would need convincing reasons to join a military alliance dominated by Western powers
This is an amazing concept, I have something of a soft spot for these non-han early Chinese polities, though I only recently did any significant research on them, I've always kind of vaguely found them cool. Would you mind if I did a cover of sorts of this map, like, my own take on a Yue empire?
As for feedback, like I said, I've been doing some research on the Yue recently, and while there's not as much information as I would like, ancient Chinese sources do give a glimpse at how they lived (wet rice farming, facial and possibly body tattoos, very early water buffalo domestication, houses on stilts) and even a few hints at their language through a phonetic/transliterated text. Pretty much all of my feedback/questions are about language and it's totally fine if you don't have any response to this because I'm really just kind of rambling here.
Something I think you might find useful is the Yue word for great, mighty, big, or large is transliterated into Chinese as Zhou (though this could be imperfect, so whether you interpret it as more akin to Cho or more akin to Jo is up to you but I personally find Jo more likely, as the Chinese have a ch sound).
I bring this up because many East Asian states and dynasties use Great as a sort of prefix so like, great Qing (Da-Qing), so it is possible that the Yue ITTL will use a similar method.
They might use the ethnonym to refer to the empire as Great Yue (Jo Wuat) to emphasize the unification of the various Yue states.
Alternatively, fitting more with OTL East Asia and the pre-modern ruler-oriented idea of a state rather than the modern nation state, they may use Great and then a dynastic name, so, using the sinicization of an OTL Yue dynastic name, maybe Great Luo (or si as both are used by Chinese sources according to wiki, though neither is mentioned in the academic papers I read, wikipedia does cite a paper in Chinese for this. I personally prefer Luo), so the Empire may be referred to as Jo Luo or Jo Si in this early period before its first dynastic change.
As for writing (like what you use on the flag), consider that the Yue/Wuat script and Chinese writing in general ITTL will likely be different. The POD is in a period where Oracle Bone script is still used, though Seal script or something very similar may still be developed. From there, though, the sort of "cursivization" or "strokiness" (sorry, don't have a fancy term, but like, adjustment to writing with ink rather than carving) could result in a script very different from OTLs Clerical, which looks a lot like modern Chinese.
Also, in terms of writing, I wonder how the Wuat would adopt the Chinese system. They could go about it like Korea and Japan did IOTL and use the symbols for there own words (at least I think that's how they did it), but there is another possibility. Some Yue texts and folk songs translated by early Chinese writers were transliterated and separately translated, so a character that means one thing in Chinese would be used to write a different Yue word that sounds similar, like the example I mentioned earlier where "Great" or "Large" is not written as Da but rather as Zhou (that character does not mean great or large in Chinese, but sounds like the Yue word).
Also, in terms of naming, maybe look at the Tai languages of Southern China and Northern Viet Nam, which are believed to be the closest surviving relatives of the Yue language (assuming you agree with theorized Austroasiatic classification (as I do) as opposed to the Austronesian one).
Sorry for the long rambling post. I have a bad habit of going on and on like this.
[edit: tso is also a possible transiletration for Zhou]
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Lovely map. However, back then the British did not claim Rockall and you left out Hong Kong. And don’t Mandates get their own colors or borders? Can’t quite recall. The British use so many to usually confuse the issue. For instance, not sure how officially in their orbit Nepal was and if you should perhaps add it here.
Trying to avoid the pinks and purples so common in the Americas on this map? Could always go for eagle brown or cactus green.
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