Could the United Netherlands have survived 1830? What impact might it have had on Europe?
- Thread starter rfmcdonald
- Start date
But you still have the same share of Protestants in the electorate here.
The issue is more whatever qualifications you put on, say, additional votes, it'll apply to both Prots and Catholics in equal measure for the most part.
Oudenaarde was particulairy protestant many of it's people fled to holland otlmaybe they come back like some do today
There have been a few discussions about the UKN surviving in the past. Now it isn't easy but certainly not impossible either. There are a few things to consider:
Well the Netherlands did have a districtssystem until 1918 so there is room for gerrymandering. Not much though.
- King Willem I was certainly no fool but he was bloody stubborn indeed. Because of this he was the sole cause of the alliance between Belgian Liberals and Catholics. If he manages to keep either of the two groups on his side that has deffused the situation significantly.
- Crown Prince Willem (the later Willem II) could very well be called one of the country's biggest traitors. He bungled the military response to the Belgian Revolution mostly intentionally because he rather wanted to be King of Belgians than the King of the North. He was wounded at Waterloo, if he dies instead that makes his younger brother Frederick the next in line. Frederick was militarily at least as competent as his older brother (who, contrary to what lies circulate in British historiography, wasn't a slouch either) but unlikely to go native. Next to that he seems to be pretty diplomatic, solving a lot of family feuds during his long, long live. He could be the ideal candidate to heal the UKN.
- The Russian Czar had plans to support King William with his army, which would most assuredly dissuade the French from intervening, but then the Polish November Uprising started and that was that.
Well the Netherlands did have a districtssystem until 1918 so there is room for gerrymandering. Not much though.
I was thinking more divergent borders in the East Indies, but sure, maybe the Dutch Gold Coast survives.
Where would the United Netherlands fall, anyway, on a ranking of European powers? It would be richer than France, probably surpassed only by Great Britain, but it would be less populous. The greatest of the lesser powers?
The greatest European middle power.
At that time, the Kingdom of Bavaria, the largest middle power in the GC had a larger, but still comparable population size (1816: 3,6 million, 1865: 4,8 million).
Also, I might be wrong, but a POD in 1830 might not be too late to let Bavaria inherit Baden.
I think Nothing change, at that point Prussia is already co-leader of germany with Austria
So some thoughts on which paths could be taken with this.
as HJ tulp already wrote a lot of the trouble came from willem I and most of all that moron willem II.
instead of W II keeling over, maybe his liason with princess royal Charlotte results in him becoming prince-consort of the UK crown-princess/Queen.
He wouldn't be able to become king in the netherlands in this situation., so that would mean his brother Willem-Frederik would become king, WF was a very amiable person and very good with people.
so this could have 2 effects at the start britain does return south-africa & ceylon under these conditions, and maybe WF gets Cleves-Mark-Julich-Berg-Cologne as a wedding gift (WF married Wilhelmine von Preußen)
with Charlotte being married to willem the butterflies start flying already, her not marrying leopold of saxe-coburg, means he stays out of the picture, so no reason for him even be contemplated anywhere near otl belgium now.
So you would not only have the united netherlands, but also some added colonies.
edit: plus WF was a rather practical person, he likely would have ended the salic laws in luxemburg, so that later on it could continue to be dutch even with a female successor.
Nap III is the son of Louis-Napoleon, so in this route no probs with that
as HJ tulp already wrote a lot of the trouble came from willem I and most of all that moron willem II.
instead of W II keeling over, maybe his liason with princess royal Charlotte results in him becoming prince-consort of the UK crown-princess/Queen.
He wouldn't be able to become king in the netherlands in this situation., so that would mean his brother Willem-Frederik would become king, WF was a very amiable person and very good with people.
so this could have 2 effects at the start britain does return south-africa & ceylon under these conditions, and maybe WF gets Cleves-Mark-Julich-Berg-Cologne as a wedding gift (WF married Wilhelmine von Preußen)
with Charlotte being married to willem the butterflies start flying already, her not marrying leopold of saxe-coburg, means he stays out of the picture, so no reason for him even be contemplated anywhere near otl belgium now.
So you would not only have the united netherlands, but also some added colonies.
edit: plus WF was a rather practical person, he likely would have ended the salic laws in luxemburg, so that later on it could continue to be dutch even with a female successor.
of course a far out route could be Louis-Napoleon switching sides, and later staying as King of NL.
Nap III is the son of Louis-Napoleon, so in this route no probs with that
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With a 1830 POD he was kicked out alreadyof course a far out route could be Louis-Napoleon switching sides, and later staying as King of NL.
Nap III is the son of Louis-Napoleon, so in this route no probs with that
i didn't see a a 1830 pod, just how to get it to survive. if the united netherlands want to survive, you need changes earlier than that.
but the King Lodewijk I was a tongue-in-cheek remark though
The OTL 1815 constitution gave north and south equal seats in the 2nd chamber, so there's precedent.
A modern United Kingdom of the Netherlands containing Belgium and Luxembourg could today an equivalent of Switzerland - tax haven?
Of course discussions on the board have ruled out a ww1 due to the butterflys; but if for whatever reason a great European war did happen would / could UKN remain neutral?
Of course discussions on the board have ruled out a ww1 due to the butterflys; but if for whatever reason a great European war did happen would / could UKN remain neutral?
Osman Aga
Banned
It was not inevitable for Belgium to become independent. In 1830, the Russians were preparing to intervene until a Polish Rebellion broke out.
A united Netherlands butterflies away the Congo colony. It will likely go to another state (Denmark, Sweden, Spain, Italy? Hell, even Greece? Unlikely but still). Countries with either no colonies or not powerful enough.
The Netherlands is wealthier and more industrialized and orbits around Prussia/Germany. Due to the large presence of Catholics, the Dutch Authorities have to appease them. Odds are they may come closer to the Protestants to challenge the influencs of socialism. Wallonia will be the pain in the ass for the Dutch. Some places in Flanders remain Dutch speaking.
A united Netherlands butterflies away the Congo colony. It will likely go to another state (Denmark, Sweden, Spain, Italy? Hell, even Greece? Unlikely but still). Countries with either no colonies or not powerful enough.
The Netherlands is wealthier and more industrialized and orbits around Prussia/Germany. Due to the large presence of Catholics, the Dutch Authorities have to appease them. Odds are they may come closer to the Protestants to challenge the influencs of socialism. Wallonia will be the pain in the ass for the Dutch. Some places in Flanders remain Dutch speaking.