What German napkinwaffe was actually feasible?

[Captain Homicide]

During WW2 what German napkinwaffe and other German weaponry/technology that was built in small numbers or never built at all IOTL was actually feasible and would have been effective in practice (assuming Germany defeated the USSR and made peace with the WAllies)?

For example if Germany was in control of Europe from France to the Urals what planned aircraft would have been built and put into Luftwaffe service?

 

[Thoresby]

The Type XXI was absolutely feasible, the Type XXIV would have killed a number of German submariners but might have resulted in something viable in a few decades.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Panzer III/IV.
The tech was all there.
It would have only been useful if it replaced the Panzer III and Panzer IV before WW2 started.
StuGs, SP arty, SP flak, can use the chassis.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

During WW2 what German napkinwaffe and other German weaponry/technology that was built in small numbers or never built at all IOTL was actually feasible and would have been effective in practice (assuming Germany defeated the USSR and made peace with the WAllies)?

For example if Germany was in control of Europe from France to the Urals what planned aircraft would have been built and put into Luftwaffe service?

The Waffentrager seems to have been viable, which would have allowed for turning towed guns into self propelled artillery.
Some of the SAM designs were viable, though probably not as effective as needed, but better than AAA.
Late improvements to jet engine design seem viable even if from a post-war perspective they were technical dead-ends due engines designed around heat resistant metals Germany didn't have access to in 1945 were better. However if we're talking about Germany that won the war in the East and had access to the metals from those regions that they lacked IOTL 1945 then all the more powerful jet engines become viable. We could see the jet powered strategic bombers becoming viable. Same with the high powered piston engine designs like the Jumo 222E/F that needed those metals to be reliable, which could make the Me264 viable (it was a working prototype).

 

[tomo pauk]

Who defined what is napkinwaffe and what is not?

 

[Korlan]

The Type XXI was absolutely feasible

Given that the Germans completed more than 100 of those (even if most were scuttled without having been used in actual operations), and that this class served post-war in the navies of Germany, France, US, USSR and in the Royal Navy, the type XXI was not merely "feasible".

Who defined what is napkinwaffe and what is not?

AFAIK "Napkinwaffe" means "vague project that never went beyond the basic idea", and so anything that was actually trialled does not qualify

 

[BlackDragon98]

The Waffentrager seems to have been viable, which would have allowed for turning towed guns into self propelled artillery.
Some of the SAM designs were viable, though probably not as effective as needed, but better than AAA.
Late improvements to jet engine design seem viable even if from a post-war perspective they were technical dead-ends due engines designed around heat resistant metals Germany didn't have access to in 1945 were better. However if we're talking about Germany that won the war in the East and had access to the metals from those regions that they lacked IOTL 1945 then all the more powerful jet engines become viable. We could see the jet powered strategic bombers becoming viable. Same with the high powered piston engine designs like the Jumo 222E/F that needed those metals to be reliable, which could make the Me264 viable (it was a working prototype).

Fuck the Jumo 004 and BMW 003.
Germans should have made the Heinkel HeS 30 instead.
It was way better than both the Jumo 004 and BMW 003 and easier to construct.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Fuck the Jumo 004 and BMW 003.
Germans should have made the Heinkel HeS 30 instead.
It was way better than both the Jumo 004 and BMW 003 and easier to construct.

Agree to disagree specifically because Germany didn't have the resources to make the HeS 30. You might want to consider why Germany did what it did IOTL if it seems so patently obvious that the one design they didn't make was so much better than what they did.
Such as it not actually living up to it's supposed promise:

Heinkel HeS 30 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Of all of the designs Müller brought with him, the HeS 30 was simplest and easiest to build. Müller had already built a test engine while still at Junkers, however it was only able to run at about half its designed RPM, which limited compression and required a continuous supply of external compressed air. Junkers abandoned the design when Müller left, choosing to develop the Jumo team's simpler design instead. Müller promised Heinkel he could have the engine up and running on a testbed within one year of completing the move, a promise he was ultimately unable to keep.
....
In addition to problems with the move, the compressor turned out to provide more mass flow than initially suspected, forcing a redesign of the turbine.

It would never have been ready in time and depended on heat resistant materials Germany did not have enough of. That forced a redesign of the Jumo and BMW jet engines too, and the HeS 30 never even got to that stage, which would have compromised the design and prevented it from being ready until the war was already over.

 

[marathag]

why Germany did what it did IOTL if it seems so patently obvious that the one design they didn't make was so much better than what they did.

Politics. Heinkel got screwed over the 280 over that.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Politics. Heinkel got screwed over the 280 over that.

I have the book German Jet Engine and Gas Turbine Development, 1930-45 and it doesn't sound like the engine really ever proved it was viable and was more complex than the Jumo 004B. For it's size it seems to have had some advantages, but it had a number of drawback as well, so the people tasked with running the national jet engine program decided it wasn't worth the expense or trouble to make it viable, especially when everything was being redesigned around having to use non-strategic metals to make them production viable. Then Heinkel was tasked with scaling it up to make the HeS 011 class two engine and it never became production ready nor did it influence any post-war designs that I know of.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

A lot of the napkinwaffe would have required ASBs to be effective....
As in British sense of nappies, not American....

 

[Peabody-Martini]

You have to determine what the real goal for Napkinwaffe really was. For producing war winning advanced technology, the record is mixed at best. On the other hand, for keeping young Engineers and Scientists from getting conscripted and sent to the Eastern Front, it worked like a charm.

 

[jlckansas]

Money, treasure, time, how much of each. Look at the MiG 15, F86, SAAB Tunnan, all based on on some German swept wing designs. Postwar they got the designs and within a few years had something actually flying and flying well.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

The 8H63 and 10H64 were practical and would fill a useful niche at a reasonable cost, and arguably simplify logistics, IE the 8H63 was to replace 7.5cm AT guns and 7.5cm Infantry guns in Infantry regiments, using a shell with partial commonality with 8cm mortars. The 8H63 did see 250 made and limited combat use so it may not count, but the 10H64 was only prototyped

MG/MK-213 had potential as a practical weapon, and were developed into such post war by various countries

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The 8H63 and 10H64 were practical and would fill a useful niche at a reasonable cost, and arguably simplify logistics, IE the 8H63 was to replace 7.5cm AT guns and 7.5cm Infantry guns in Infantry regiments, using a shell with partial commonality with 8cm mortars. The 8H63 did see 250 made and limited combat use so it may not count, but the 10H64 was only prototyped

The long range 8cm PAW L105 might have actually worked as a SP weapon on the E-5 or Waffentrager chassis and been quite a bit more viable than the 88mm L71 on the same chassis.

MG/MK-213 had potential as a practical weapon, and were developed into such post war by various countries

That would have been highly useful.

 

[JanWellem]

With some more development the Horten Ho 229 might habe become a decent interceptor.

 

[thaddeus]

think the "small jet" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_109-005 planned for V-1 would have been a viable project? (is it napkinwaffe?)

 

[marathag]

With some more development the Horten Ho 229 might habe become a decent interceptor.

Jack Northrop found that jet flying wings without fly by wire and computers had stability issues

 

[M79]

Type XXIX was the successor to the Type XXI - modular, fast, and reportedly planned for anechoic tiles of some sort.

Jets/turboprops of vastly greater capability become plausible with the HeS 011 - even moreso with the BMW 028, Jumo 022, and similar.

Reports of A9 prototypes/true IRBMs and possibly even a Silbervogel being near completion surface now and then. Germany would likely have tried to put a satellite into orbit before decade's end if only for the prestige.

If it can be counted as napkinwaffe, Zuse and his Z4 (Z5?) also have an impact.

 

[Workable Goblin]

Reports of A9 prototypes/true IRBMs and possibly even a Silbervogel being near completion surface now and then.

Silbervogel was (literally) never going to fly, at least not more than once; like most pre-ICBM experts, Sänger and Bredt greatly underestimated the effects of reentry heating. Additionally, USAF-driven studies in the mid-1950s of the concept showed that while it offered greater range than a purely ballistic mode, it had difficult control problems related to the frequent transitions between aerodynamic and reaction controls, serious heating problems due to the frequent and sharp "reentries," and weight problems due both to the heating problems and the related physical stresses involved with the skip-glide method. Overall, the conclusion was that it was a waste of time and a ballistic or boost-glide method (essentially the same idea, but abandoning the "skips" in favor of a long, steady glide) would be superior. Since the physics would be the same, the Nazis would doubtlessly come to the same conclusion.

The A9 or other upgraded ballistic missiles were more feasible, though, and would be very likely to be developed for the same reasons that the Soviets focused on developing them over bombers: Germany is far away from the United States and has few allies near the latter to base bombers in, whereas the United States can probably find allies in Britain, Africa, and India against Germany. Therefore a ballistic missile is an attractive method of launching attacks or threatening to launch attacks against the United States. Of course, Germany does have a clearer field for developing a bomber capable of reaching the United States, so it probably won't be as invested in ballistic missiles as the Soviets were, but it's very likely to be an area of interest for them.