US Victory in Vietnam

Deleted member 90949

the United States and most of the "free" world supported the Khmer Rouge
The United States supported a monarchist organization founded by Sihanouk called FUNCINPEC that was allied with the Khmer Rouge from 1982 to 1993. The idea of direct support is completely false. The KR's main patron was North Vietnam until 1975 and then China from 1978.
 
The United States supported a monarchist organization founded by Sihanouk called FUNCINPEC that was allied with the Khmer Rouge from 1982 to 1993. The idea of direct support is completely false. The KR's main patron was North Vietnam until 1975 and then China from 1978.
This article addresses the United State's political, financial, and military support to Khmer Rouge Insurgents.
 
I think you bring up a very interesting point. I'll put a disclaimer that I am Vietnamese, so this may cloud my judgement.
I'm not sure if calling the government Vietnam put in place a colonial regime is accurate. No doubt, the actions of the newly installed Cambodian regime was placed under heavy scrutiny by the Vietnamese communist. However, I think this is no different than what the Soviets did to other nations in the Warsaw Pact. At best, you can say the Vietnamese attempted nation building similar to what the Americans did in Iraq. At worse, you can say it was a satellite state of Vietnam. I feel like calling it a colonial regime means that the Vietnamese were trying to exploit Cambodia for economical gains which isn't true. The war in Cambodia was costly and made the already dire economy in Vietnam worse. From my point of view, the Vietnamese wanted to put a friendly and stable regime to prevent the Khmer Rouge from returning to power and continue their attacks against the Vietnamese.

Now, I will try to explain this "colonial state" perception. To be honest, Vietnamese and Cambodian people have traditionally been enemies going back centuries. There is great distrust between our people. In fact, Southern Vietnam (Saigon and the Mekong Delta) originally belonged to the Khmer Empire and the Khmer people originally. Around the 11th century, the Vietnamese kings in the north decided to expand their lands through Nam Tien (Southern Advance). The Vietnamese moved south and conquered the Champa people and parts of the Khmer Empire. Along the process, we "Vietnamized" the region by bringing in Vietnamese settlers and often times massacring the local people. This is a dark event in history, but it happened in many other places around the world. In the 1800s, the Vietnam Empire under the Nguyen Dynasty invaded and conquered almost all of Cambodia. The Cambodian King sought help from Siam, but the Vietnamese also defeated the Siamese Empire. However, the Vietnamese decided to decide up Cambodia and give half of it to Siam to ensure future peace. The Cambodia/Khmer King decided to turn to France for assistance which was the first step of French colonization of all of Indochina. You can see why Cambodians distrust Vietnamese people, which leads to this colonial state idea.

There were many Vietnamese people who settled in Cambodia lands when the Vietnamese Empire existed. When the French took over, the migration of Vietnamese people to Cambodian lands continued. This led to a sizable Vietnamese population in Cambodia. The Vietnamese people who were already there in Cambodia (some are now many generation old) were treated as second-class citizens by newly independent Cambodia. Despite the ideological differences between the Khmer Republic (Lol Nol) and the Khmer Rouge (Pol Pot), they both believed in Khmer nationalism. Both were distrustful of the Vietnamese (the South Vietnamese for Lol Nol and the North Vietnamese for Pol Pot). Lol Nol actually massacred Vietnamese-Cambodian people during the Vietnam War and planned to invade South Vietnam to regain formerly Khmer lands. Pol Pot equally distrusted the communist Vietnamese and their cooperation soon ended before the fall of Saigon. Later, Pol Pot would also carry out violence against Vietnamese-Cambodians.

*Before posting this, I looked up the Wikipedia page on Vietnamese-Cambodians and found out there were some later Vietnamese migrants waves during the Vietnamese occupation. I guess this does give credit to the "colonial state" claim. However, I posted this anyways cause I've already talked about the history of Vietnamese and Cambodian people and I thought it would be cool for you guys to know.

I admit I'm no expert on the subject. And you're right from what I do know "vassal state" or "Satellite state" does sound a closer fit based on my knowledge. Just couldn't think of the words.

And admittedly the Vietnamese were in the rare position of being the unwilling conqueror. From what I understand the government at the time would have much preferred to not spend the money and resources on dealing with Cambodia.

But I was more trying to point out that the US "support" of the Khmer Rouge is more complicated then the general "The US Supported Pol Pot" schtick which seems to generally be the equivalent of saying the US was allied and supporting the Khmer Rouge during the Killing Fields. Which is inaccurate.
 
I admit I'm no expert on the subject. And you're right from what I do know "vassal state" or "Satellite state" does sound a closer fit based on my knowledge. Just couldn't think of the words.

And admittedly the Vietnamese were in the rare position of being the unwilling conqueror. From what I understand the government at the time would have much preferred to not spend the money and resources on dealing with Cambodia.

But I was more trying to point out that the US "support" of the Khmer Rouge is more complicated then the general "The US Supported Pol Pot" schtick which seems to generally be the equivalent of saying the US was allied and supporting the Khmer Rouge during the Killing Fields. Which is inaccurate.
Ah I see what you mean. This must be what Metropolis45 is intending to say to. I completely agree with you guys then. It isn't my intention to push this hur dur US genocidal regime supports Pol Pot view. Sorry if it came of that way. I agree with you guys that the US support in this conflict was more complicated than that. I should also admit that I'm not an expert on this subject, since primarily I focus on the history of South Vietnam rather than Vietnamese history as a whole.
 
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Deleted member 90949

This article addresses the United State's political, financial, and military support to Khmer Rouge Insurgents.
This article cites the Jonathan Winer letter with regard to financial support. According to Kenton Clymer, Winer claimed that he got his figure from the CRS. When the CRS denied this claim, Winer recanted.

It also claims that the US recognized the Khmer Rouge government in the UN, which is false. They recognized Sihanouk's FUNCINPEC government which, as stated earlier, was allied with the Khmer Rouge from 1982 to 1993.

This is an ad hominen admittedly, but the article is written by John Pilger, who has paid libel damages in the past. Pilger has a reputation of false claims, including claiming in his book Hidden Agendas that civilians died in the 'Highway of Death' during the Gulf War. This is despite no journalists ever claiming they saw civilian bodies and no photographs being published of such while there were hundreds of photos of dead soldiers. Furthermore the Washington Post journalist Nora Boustany interviewed an Iraqi Republican Guardsman that was present, and he never mentioned there being civilians with the retreating soldiers. He cites a Kate Adie of the BBC, even though Adie never claimed she saw civilian bodies. Pilger is simply not a reliable source.
 
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This article cites the Jonathan Winer letter with regard to financial support. According to Kenton Clymer, Winer claimed that he got his figure from the CRS. When the CRS denied this claim, Winer recanted.

It also claims that the US recognized the Khmer Rouge government in the UN, which is false. They recognized Sihanouk's FUNCINPEC government which, as stated earlier, was allied with the Khmer Rouge from 1982 to 1993.

This is an ad hominen admittedly, but the article is written by John Pilger, who has paid libel damages in the past. Pilger has a reputation of false claims, including claiming in his book Hidden Agendas that civilians died in the 'Highway of Death' during the Gulf War. This is despite no journalists ever claiming they saw civilian bodies and no photographs being published of such while there were hundreds of photos of dead soldiers. Furthermore the Washington Post journalist Nora Boustany interviewed an Iraqi Republican Guardsman that was present, and he never mentioned there being civilians with the retreating soldiers. He cites a Kate Adie of the BBC, even though Adie never claimed she saw civilian bodies. Pilger is simply not a reliable source.
Thanks Metropolis, that was insightful. To be honest, I found this article on Wikipedia used as a source for US support for the Khmer Rouge in terms of material and food supply. As I said in a previous post, I only know tidbits of the Cambodian-Vietnamese War and I won't claim to be an expert on the subject.
 
It is a good idea to understand different sides beliefs and ways of thinking. But halfway through your statement as such it seemed you were changing tense to be stating your own personal beliefs namely "What right do we have to judge them in terms of human rights".

It is a valid question, don't you think? Vietnam is a collectivist society. American is not. There is a clear difference in thinking there that many here fail to grasp.
 
Actually, Nixon was able to do both in real life. He managed to convince both the Chinese and the Soviets to reduce their aid to the North Vietnamese to abide by the Paris Peace Accords. That was the whole point of his détente talks with the Soviets. And most of you already know how the US moved closer in relationship with the C.C.P during this period. The Soviets also didn't approve the North starting another offensive again in 1975 and didn't know/hear about any plans of the North Vietnamese to do so.

In fact, Nixon and Kissinger wanted to give US aid to the North Vietnamese after the Paris Accords to keep North Vietnam reliant on US aid so that they won't continue to attack the South. However, Congress passed a law that prevented giving aid to the North Vietnamese after seeing how they treated US P.O.Ws so this option was off the table. This is talked about in Black April: The Fall of South Vietnam by George Veith. If there was one Vietnam War book people should read, it is this one.

This fails dismally to talk about the real fUSSR's relationship with North Vietnam. The Soviet Ambassador to Hanoi wrote in his memoirs of being forced to cool his heels outside the Polit bureau's meetings in the corridor before being summoned in and given their shopping list for aid. The fUSSR did not direct the war, unlike the US's efforts in South Vietnam. China was even more distant, it was kept beyond the border basically by the Polit Bureau who didn't trust it at all. They allowed only a trickle of Chinese troops over to maintain the railway and that was it. China and the fUSSR were helping the North Vietnamese, not controlling them, despite what the CIA and Washington circles maintained.
 
This fails dismally to talk about the real fUSSR's relationship with North Vietnam. The Soviet Ambassador to Hanoi wrote in his memoirs of being forced to cool his heels outside the Polit bureau's meetings in the corridor before being summoned in and given their shopping list for aid. The fUSSR did not direct the war, unlike the US's efforts in South Vietnam. China was even more distant, it was kept beyond the border basically by the Polit Bureau who didn't trust it at all. They allowed only a trickle of Chinese troops over to maintain the railway and that was it. China and the fUSSR were helping the North Vietnamese, not controlling them, despite what the CIA and Washington circles maintained.
I doubt I have failed anywhere in here. You must have misinterpreted the point I was making. Earlier, someone asked if the United States placed political pressure upon the Soviet Union and China to dial back their support for the North Vietnamese. My only point here was that this happened. No where did I say the North was dictated by the Soviets and Communist Chinese.
 
No, while it might be deemed 'unlikely' it was no "extremely" so anymore than the US going to war over the Soviets or Chinese sinking American ships going to a Korean harbor. In fact that would be exactly the same because the "war" in Korea has never officially ended and the "war" in Vietnam was never officially declared to be such.

The US, China and USSR ALL 'feared' WW3 but that made them no less prepared to enter just such a self-immolation of a conflict just the same. Want to 'sink' the guiding light of the Revolution? Have it not respond to direct and obvious provication because that means it is weak, powerless and of no conseqence to the world. Harsh words WOULD come first followed by an escort of Soviet Warships with orders to engage and drive off if they can, sink if they must. Ball back in the US court.
If Vietnam had ever been declared or treated like a 'real' war the yes, the US could have declared a blockade and legally interdicted ships headed to North Vietnam ports. But doing so outside a declared war, (cough Cuban Missile Crisis cough) is in fact an ACT of war. Likewise is sinking unarmed merchantman.

Tough choice? Yep but that's why those in power and the military THINK THROUGH each and every possible scenerio and prepare, game and modify responses.

China was less afraid of WWIII than Russia. Under Mao it was crazy as a cut snake. Mao believed in the power of the people to survive any event. He was actively courting the more extreme elements in the Revolutionary world and playing them off against the fUSSR. The fUSSR was terrified of a nuclear war and with good reason. They were frightened that it would be the snuffing out of the Soviet state. The US was frightened but determined that it could survive a nuclear war.
Oddly enough you have the US "projecting" itself onto the USSR 'rather' thank looking at what they say.
"We will bury you"
"We are turning Missile out like sausges"
"Exporting the Revolution will always be the basis of the Revolution" and so on.

And you had the rhetoric of the candidates for President, the John Birch society, Curtis LeMay, etc. You had regular overflights of the fUSSR and the Eastern Bloc by the RAF and the USAF. You had exercises like ABLE ARCHER. The fUSSR wasn't blameless but neither was the West.

The US was actually aware that we had an advantage through the early 70s over the Soviets but as Europe, not Asia was the priority the conflict in Vietnam was always treated as the 'sideshow' it was. When it became clear that it could not be won short of committing forces and resources that the US was unwilling to commit, (which would have involved commiting more forces and resources that were already dangerously low in Europe) the conflict ended.

Which terrified US Allies in the Pacific Region. It was why Australia and New Zealand went to war in South Vietnam. Australia had seen what a distraction Europe was in the West New Guinea affair and the Konfrontasi with Indonesia. Washington was too interested in Europe and was basically ignoring the Asia-Pacific.

The US forces were too focuses as well on the "war of the big battalions" and failed dismally to understand the needs and requirements of COIN warfare. It failed dismally to win "the hearts and minds" of the South Vietnamese people as a consequence.
As others have stated the goals in Vietnam were never clear or firm nor was US commitment to 'winning' even if that HAD been defined politically. We were, in the end, there to prop up the South in the hopes of it at least becoming another South Korea but that would have taken a government and population more commited to becominig such and the US was just never going to be able to impose that from the outside.

The US learned a lot of valuable lessons in Vietnam just as we did in Korea but almost none of them actually applied outside technical areas to the main focus of Europe. Probably the biggest issue of the aftermath of the Vietnam war has been that while the US military learned some lessons from Vietnam not so much the public and polticians... Which is arguably the worst outcome...

Randy

The US learnt a lot of valuable lessons. Perhaps the most important was "never fight a land war in Asia" in the Jungle. 😳
 
I doubt I have failed anywhere in here. You must have misinterpreted the point I was making. Earlier, someone asked if the United States placed political pressure upon the Soviet Union and China to dial back their support for the North Vietnamese. My only point here was that this happened. No where did I say the North was dictated by the Soviets and Communist Chinese.

I didn't say you did. I was making a separate point that flowed on from yours.
 

marathag

Banned
The fUSSR did not direct the war, unlike the US's efforts in South Vietnam
MACV and DC had a lot less control over the RVN Government and ARVN deployments than you want to believe.

Is it directing the War to 'give' all that Warsaw Pact military aid to the NVA?
 

marathag

Banned
Vietnam is a collectivist society. American is not.
Seems that there was quite a few in the South before 1975 with strong Religious beliefs from a multitude of different systems.
Many millions of them. That's not really collectivist behavior in many of them, esp. with the sects of Buddhism like Hoa Hao and the Animist beliefs of the Degar
 
MACV and DC had a lot less control over the RVN Government and ARVN deployments than you want to believe.

Is it directing the War to 'give' all that Warsaw Pact military aid to the NVA?

"Directing the war" is creating a complete "shadow government" in Saigon. It is directing where individual ARVN units were to be deployed. Neither happened in North Vietnam.
 
Seems that there was quite a few in the South before 1975 with strong Religious beliefs from a multitude of different systems.
Many millions of them. That's not really collectivist behavior in many of them, esp. with the sects of Buddhism like Hoa Hao and the Animist beliefs of the Degar

You are talking in absolutes. I am talking in relatives. Oh, and the Animists were a minority not a majority group in Vietnam.
 

marathag

Banned
You are talking in absolutes. I am talking in relatives. Oh, and the Animists were a minority not a majority group in Vietnam.
Seems like Rights of Minorities were not respected then. 'United' Vietnam seems to have only worked for the Majority, hmm?
 
Seems like Rights of Minorities were not respected then. 'United' Vietnam seems to have only worked for the Majority, hmm?

Rather like most countries do. I am unsure why you are focused on the minority and their rights all the time. The majority rules. Simples.
 
"Directing the war" is creating a complete "shadow government" in Saigon. It is directing where individual ARVN units were to be deployed. Neither happened in North Vietnam.
I'm sorry a shadow government? Can you elaborate on this claim of yours?
 

marathag

Banned
"Directing the war" is creating a complete "shadow government" in Saigon. It is directing where individual ARVN units were to be deployed. Neither happened in North Vietnam.

MACV and LBJ/Nixon could ask Theiu to do something, and sometime he would, other times not. The Embassy or MACV couldn't levy Taxes in the South, or Draft Soldiers
VC was the ones doing the shadow government stuff, taxing peasants and taking away boys to 'enlist'
 
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