What the title says. I wanted yo know the opinions of the experts. I was thinking in one of the armies of the Eastern front transferred to France. Thank you very much.
If Germany had had one army more in France by June 1944, could she have repelled the Normandy landings?
- Thread starter Juan de Mariana
- Start date
Deleted member 1487
Depends. How many men, how are they supplied given the Allied 'Transport Plan', what equipment, and where are they deployed? If all in the Normandy area near the beaches then perhaps, but there are so many variables, including what happens in the East as a result, that it's hard to discuss without a lot of detail and explanation.
Garrison
Donor
Why are they being moved? The Germans do not have the manpower to move armies from the East on a whim so there has to be a logical reason for them doing so. Without knowing what that reason is it's difficult to extrapolate the impact.
History Learner
Banned
From Lost in the Mud: The (Nearly) Forgotten Collapse of the German Army in the Western Ukraine, March and April 1944 by Gregory Liedtke, The Journal of Slavic Military Studies:
The need to reassign resources in the wake of the second stage of the Dnieper-Carpathian Operation also proved deleterious to the Germans’ prospects of successfully defending France. The withdrawal of two panzer and one infantry divisions, one heavy tank battalion, and two assault gun brigades meant that OB West (High Command of the German Army in the West, or Oberbefehlshaber West) was deprived of a total of 363 tanks, assault guns, and self-propelled anti-tank guns on 6 June 1944.72 Although the II. SS-Panzerkorps with the 9. SS-Panzer and 10. SS-Panzer Divisions were ordered back to France on 12 June, Allied air interdiction and damage to the French railway net delayed their arrival at the invasion front until 29 June. While their commitment at this point ended the British Operation Epsom (26–30 June), it also meant that German hopes for launching a concerted effort to wipe out the British portion of the Allied bridgehead were stillborn; henceforth these two divisions were fully preoccupied with simply trying to contain the Allied lodgement.73 One can only speculate as to the possible consequences had the II. SS-Panzerkorps already been stationed in France on 6 June. However, with its two divisions possessing most of their required number of motor vehicles and hence a high degree of mobility, and since all the other fully operational panzer divisions in France were committed almost immediately, it seems likely that the II. SS-Panzerkorps would also have been employed against the Allied landings at a very early stage. While the early deployment of an additional two panzer divisions with 245 tanks and assault guns may not have sufficed to wipe out any of the Allied beachheads, it would nonetheless have represented a major reinforcement.74 At the very least, the German containment of the landings would have congealed far sooner, and, in turn, German defense lines would have become even more formidable. Although the eventual outcome of the campaign would probably have remained the same, for the Allies, breeching these defences would have entailed significantly higher costs of time and blood. With the British and Canadian armies already experiencing dire shortages of trained infantry replacements during the campaign, and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill worried that fighting in Normandy was degenerating into positional warfare reminiscent of the Great War, the situation for the Allies could have been far worse.75
I think you would need to have this putative army - with a reasonable hunk of its TOE - moving into place right on the invasion beaches on June 4-5 (not after, and not before) to have any serious shot at repelling OVERLORD.
How you do that without the Allies spotting it and bombing the hell out of it en route is another question. The weather was terrible on those days, so I suppose there's that. *Why* the Germans would do so would also have to be answered.
How you do that without the Allies spotting it and bombing the hell out of it en route is another question. The weather was terrible on those days, so I suppose there's that. *Why* the Germans would do so would also have to be answered.
If the Germans had some actual planning.. Maybe.. It wasn't so much hey I need more men.. You need them in the right place and yiu need air cover. Hell evn 2 uboats in the area.. Anything..
Forget more men. You need assets to stop the largest maritime invasion in history.
Something the germnas didn't have at this point. As others have pointed out. You can stall with men.. But stop.. Eh.. That's gonna be a rough call.
Sure anything is possible, this is western Europe, meat grinders are the exception. That said no one expected the invasion to be painless.
If yiu can't disrupt what's at sea and the chain it's not gonna matter since the Germans are only so many onshore and have only so many bullets against an enemy that is not looking to take no as an answer.
I also agree with hey look we slowed down the people who might be nice to us in favor of giving the people you were out to exterminate more leverage for vengence.
By d day the war was over.. It was a matter of how hard to fight to the end. Germany knew exactly where the most pain was going to come from hence why only in place armies where there.
I'm not one to say the Germans are looking to be easier on any one side, but the life death struggle was already put in place in the east and coming to roost at an alarming pace for the warmacht. No air cover. No navel assets.. Stop.. Eh.. No.. Slow down maybe..
Forget more men. You need assets to stop the largest maritime invasion in history.
Something the germnas didn't have at this point. As others have pointed out. You can stall with men.. But stop.. Eh.. That's gonna be a rough call.
Sure anything is possible, this is western Europe, meat grinders are the exception. That said no one expected the invasion to be painless.
If yiu can't disrupt what's at sea and the chain it's not gonna matter since the Germans are only so many onshore and have only so many bullets against an enemy that is not looking to take no as an answer.
I also agree with hey look we slowed down the people who might be nice to us in favor of giving the people you were out to exterminate more leverage for vengence.
By d day the war was over.. It was a matter of how hard to fight to the end. Germany knew exactly where the most pain was going to come from hence why only in place armies where there.
I'm not one to say the Germans are looking to be easier on any one side, but the life death struggle was already put in place in the east and coming to roost at an alarming pace for the warmacht. No air cover. No navel assets.. Stop.. Eh.. No.. Slow down maybe..
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Since Hitler would have simply ordered whatever troops, and tanks he had to stand, and hold the line till no orderly retreat was possible the breakout would have been delayed by only a few weeks.
This extra army has to not only be in France but in the right place at the right time and it has to be free to counter attack (logistically and politically). The Normandy landing sites were not that secure for a while, and even with wallie resources behind it was still a bottleneck for getting stuff onshore and into France. But It will still be costly for this extra German army as they'll be doing this in the face of allied air superiority and the landed forces digging in.
but:
1). What extra army is this? Any spare forces are going east
2). If Overlord is stalling but the German forces in France are committed against it, then Dragoon might get moved up and increased.
3). it's going to be hard to hide a whole new army in the immediate vicinity, it being in the right place at the right time also makes it easier to spot as a potential danger to Overlord and so Overlord might well be adjusted accordingly. On a related note it also means this army has somehow not fallen for all the various tricks and ruses that occurred OTL and had the Germans misdirected.
but:
1). What extra army is this? Any spare forces are going east
2). If Overlord is stalling but the German forces in France are committed against it, then Dragoon might get moved up and increased.
3). it's going to be hard to hide a whole new army in the immediate vicinity, it being in the right place at the right time also makes it easier to spot as a potential danger to Overlord and so Overlord might well be adjusted accordingly. On a related note it also means this army has somehow not fallen for all the various tricks and ruses that occurred OTL and had the Germans misdirected.
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History Learner
Banned
Probably far longer; the Normandy terrain is well suited, terrain wise, for holding in place. Allied planning originally conceived of a year to the Rhine, after all; I can definitely see several additional months as the most likely.
In many respects it does not matter if you have to go to the enemy or if they come to you. Eventually you have to destroy them one way or the other.
So unless we assume this army is in stealth bunkers and that Orverload lands on top of them then the truth is they are not stopping the invasion.
But in all practicality the army has to be in place before D-Day. And if they are they will get detected to one degree or another and if they are close enough to effect the invasion then the invasion would be planned to go in somewhere else.
In the 1940s it was almost impossible to put enough soldiers on the shore to repel an invasion on the beaches. You simply have to much shore to cover. The best you can do is slow them down then hope to hit them with your reserves and push them back off the continent. But that requires you to have more reserves that you can bring in faster then the invasion can bring in. And with the Wallies that is very hard to do. Not impossible but very hard. The Wallies have more available then Germany did but they could only move it so fast over the channel. Germany on the other hand was slowed by Allied air power And just not having the ability that the Wallies ultimately had.
So they have a very short window to crush the invasion.
But crushing an invasion in WW2 was not easy. Can you name one time that it happened? (Yes the raid by england but in truth that was a raid not an invasion and it was a really badly ran one at that). But basically during the war every invasion established its beachhead and was not stopped on the beaches.
Even the dreaded Sea Lyon if it had happened would not have been stopped on the Beaches. It would have been cut to pieces trying to get to the beaches then a counter assault would have taken it out as Germany could not supply the invasion force with as few Ships/boats/rafts as the had much less what would be left after the AirForce and Navy had a crack at them.
So shoving an invasion off the beaches is not easy at the best of times and it was not the best of times for Germany. So unless Germany dumps the Army at the exact right spot at the exact right time and the Wallies are to drunk to notice it is not stopping the invasion. Just slowing it down a bit. And not as much as some may think. Yes the hedge rows suck and all that but by the end of the fighting in that area the army had a pretty good handle on how to fight in that mess. And once the tactics and equipment is figured out they ARE going to break out and more Germans will only slow them a bit. As they had figured out ways to minimize the terrain advantage.
So yes it will slow them but no it won’t stop them. And on the other hand it will speed up the Russians.
So unless we assume this army is in stealth bunkers and that Orverload lands on top of them then the truth is they are not stopping the invasion.
But in all practicality the army has to be in place before D-Day. And if they are they will get detected to one degree or another and if they are close enough to effect the invasion then the invasion would be planned to go in somewhere else.
In the 1940s it was almost impossible to put enough soldiers on the shore to repel an invasion on the beaches. You simply have to much shore to cover. The best you can do is slow them down then hope to hit them with your reserves and push them back off the continent. But that requires you to have more reserves that you can bring in faster then the invasion can bring in. And with the Wallies that is very hard to do. Not impossible but very hard. The Wallies have more available then Germany did but they could only move it so fast over the channel. Germany on the other hand was slowed by Allied air power And just not having the ability that the Wallies ultimately had.
So they have a very short window to crush the invasion.
But crushing an invasion in WW2 was not easy. Can you name one time that it happened? (Yes the raid by england but in truth that was a raid not an invasion and it was a really badly ran one at that). But basically during the war every invasion established its beachhead and was not stopped on the beaches.
Even the dreaded Sea Lyon if it had happened would not have been stopped on the Beaches. It would have been cut to pieces trying to get to the beaches then a counter assault would have taken it out as Germany could not supply the invasion force with as few Ships/boats/rafts as the had much less what would be left after the AirForce and Navy had a crack at them.
So shoving an invasion off the beaches is not easy at the best of times and it was not the best of times for Germany. So unless Germany dumps the Army at the exact right spot at the exact right time and the Wallies are to drunk to notice it is not stopping the invasion. Just slowing it down a bit. And not as much as some may think. Yes the hedge rows suck and all that but by the end of the fighting in that area the army had a pretty good handle on how to fight in that mess. And once the tactics and equipment is figured out they ARE going to break out and more Germans will only slow them a bit. As they had figured out ways to minimize the terrain advantage.
So yes it will slow them but no it won’t stop them. And on the other hand it will speed up the Russians.
An extra army would not be used to hold the defensive line for longer, it would be used to counterattack to drive the Allies into the sea.
OTL the Germans attacked with 21 Panzer on D-Day and failed; they tried to counterattack at the end of June during Epsom and failed. Counterattacking will result in higher losses as the Germans concentrate their forces they will be vulnerable to heavy bombers, tactical airforces, naval guns and Allied artillery.
yes that's why I said counter attack?
and I'm pretty sure I said that as well?
part of the problem is to be counter attacking force you need to be far enough away to actually be a counter attack force for anything other than the area immediately in front of you, but near enough to be able to concentrate and counter attack quickly
Wallie air superiority makes everything harder.
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marathag
Banned
12th SS Panzer got hammered on the 7th.
anytime an Armored Division popped up close to the beaches, they got hurt. Same for Lehr.
It isn't just that. Any army that is moved to Normandy is an army that isn't at the Eastern Front. Either way, the Germans are going to get hit badly, and they don't have many resources to move troops around either, or many troops, for that matter.
Thank you all very much for your answers. Sad that almost all were negative, but I expected it. What I had in mind was a coup taking place in Germany at the end of 1943 and the new Beck-Goerdeler government supporting the formation of a Russian Liberación Army under general Vlasov, coming to terms with the Ukrainian Insurgent Army and forming units in the Baltic states, and also shortening the Eastern front with withdrawals. I hoped that this would allow them to transfer one army from the Eastern front to France.