Queen of Five Thousand Days

[vandevere]

that ship already sailed sadly as @kaiidth mentioned, the money, the autonomy, things a Henry VIII so full of himself would not leave behind, if anything this embold the protestanst, as sow the weakness of catholics with a semi real miracle.

But Henry always was a Catholic, even with the Church of England Henrician trappings. Assuming the Pope does forgive and forget, if he really wants Henry back in the fold again, some sort of concessions will have to be on the table; and allowing Henry to...reform...corrupt monasteries and abbeys might be the way to do it...

Also, bear in mind, with all those healthy children, there will be no need for an Act of Succession. Ergo, Bishop John Fisher, and Thomas More will both have longer lives, as will Cardinal Wolsey. With the above mentioned alive and well, I don't think Thomas Cromwell will ascend to the heights as he did in otl, but the plus side to that is that he too will have a longer life...

 

[Nivek]

But Henry always was a Catholic, even with the Church of England Henrician trappings. Assuming the Pope does forgive and forget, if he really wants Henry back in the fold again, some sort of concessions will have to be on the table; and allowing Henry to...reform...corrupt monasteries and abbeys might be the way to do it...

Also, bear in mind, with all those healthy children, there will be no need for an Act of Succession. Ergo, Bishop John Fisher, and Thomas More will both have longer lives, as will Cardinal Wolsey. With the above mentioned alive and well, I don't think Thomas Cromwell will ascend to the heights as he did in otl, but the plus side to that is that he too will have a longer life...

Again the ship sailed, i think you ignored how in love was Henry VIII with his newfound power and he would not renounce to them, specially as he knew will bring more conflict to the future, and people mentioned anne was very pro reform too, so sadly leave that wish behind

 

[HortenseMancini]

Hey everyone! I'm hitting a bit of a wall and am looking for some thoughts. On the religious issue, at this point Henry hasn't Head of the Church of England, and with the miracle babies, I'm seeing the Pope approvingly the annulment and marriage.

But, I can't see Henry not taking some concessions. So, I'm planning on having England stay Catholic but with some sort of extra allowances. But I'm having trouble thinking what privileges Henry is going to try and wrest from the Pope. I could see some sort of grant to clean out corrupt abbeys and the like, but other than that I'm stuck.

Thoughts?

@FalconHonour @vandevere @kaiidth @isabella @curlyhairedhippie

Hmm...I don't think Henry will reconcile with the Church at this point. The only person who might have the ability to guide the King in that direction is Thomas More but I doubt More would be able to make his voice louder than Anne and Cromwell, both of whom would surely want a split from the Catholic Church.

 

[HortenseMancini]

But Henry always was a Catholic, even with the Church of England Henrician trappings. Assuming the Pope does forgive and forget, if he really wants Henry back in the fold again, some sort of concessions will have to be on the table; and allowing Henry to...reform...corrupt monasteries and abbeys might be the way to do it...

Also, bear in mind, with all those healthy children, there will be no need for an Act of Succession. Ergo, Bishop John Fisher, and Thomas More will both have longer lives, as will Cardinal Wolsey. With the above mentioned alive and well, I don't think Thomas Cromwell will ascend to the heights as he did in otl, but the plus side to that is that he too will have a longer life...

All very true. Perhaps Henry doesn't officially break but I could see him making a deal with the Church similar to the Concordat of Bologna. His kids with Anne, on the other hand, are sure to be strict Protestants...

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

The question is, then: will be Henry ready to turn back the religious question to the starting point? The Pope will demand that and no less.

 

[vandevere]

All very true. Perhaps Henry doesn't officially break but I could see him making a deal with the Church similar to the Concordat of Bologna. His kids with Anne, on the other hand, are sure to be strict Protestants...

That might just do it. Even though still Catholic, it would also very much be a Church of England too. Could work very nicely indeed...

Edit: The Pope has already done it for Francis, so why not Henry too?

 

[Peppe]

That might just do it. Even though still Catholic, it would also very much be a Church of England too. Could work very nicely indeed...

Edit: The Pope has already done it for Francis, so why not Henry too?

While Henry could return to the fold (I don't think so, because he probably is already liking the feeling of being the supreme head of the Church in England), I think if his children were protestants (which they'll probably be, with Anne and Crammer being involved in their religious education), they'll probably decide to break with the Church permanently (and maybe even more to have the church in England to be closer to Sweden or Denmark in belief and practices) and if they don't becuase of sheer principle, their descendants would probably do so with the TLs counterreformation, since the Papacy would probably try and force the Church of England to return to more "mainstream" Catholicism

 

[Nivek]

While Henry could return to the fold (I don't think so, because he probably is already liking the feeling of being the supreme head of the Church in England), I think if his children were protestants (which they'll probably be, with Anne and Crammer being involved in their religious education), they'll probably decide to break with the Church permanently (and maybe even more to have the church in England to be closer to Sweden or Denmark in belief and practices) and if they don't becuase of sheer principle, their descendants would probably do so with the TLs counterreformation, since the Papacy would probably try and force the Church of England to return to more "mainstream" Catholicism

Yeah as say before that ship sailed and this is a very well line of thought how the church of england itself would evolved

 

[Cate13]

So, if he would get the Pope on his side again and said Pope would also be desperate for Henry to not truly start his own Version of Henrician Catholicism, then the Pope and the lower Churchmen should find a way to fill Henry's treasury with a different way than what the King did in OTL.

There's definitely going to be some kind of monetary compensation, Henry has a really strong bargaining position with the 'miracle' and everyone knows it.

But Henry always was a Catholic, even with the Church of England Henrician trappings. Assuming the Pope does forgive and forget, if he really wants Henry back in the fold again, some sort of concessions will have to be on the table; and allowing Henry to...reform...corrupt monasteries and abbeys might be the way to do it...

That's where I keep leaning, official permission to reform monasteries and abbeys, which ends up being tacit permission to confiscate the land as needed.

All very true. Perhaps Henry doesn't officially break but I could see him making a deal with the Church similar to the Concordat of Bologna. His kids with Anne, on the other hand, are sure to be strict Protestants...

I had totally forgotten about Concordat of Bologna. Thank you so much for the reminder. It will be a great blueprint for how this will go.

The question is, then: will be Henry ready to turn back the religious question to the starting point? The Pope will demand that and no less.

I think the Pope isn't holding a lot of cards, and so can't actually demand much. With the 'miracle' Henry looks like he was right, and pushing to hard back makes the pope look wrong.

that ship already sailed sadly as @kaiidth mentioned, the money, the autonomy, things a Henry VIII so full of himself would not leave behind, if anything this embold the protestanst, as sow the weakness of catholics with a semi real miracle.

Again the ship sailed, i think you ignored how in love was Henry VIII with his newfound power and he would not renounce to them, specially as he knew will bring more conflict to the future, and people mentioned anne was very pro reform too, so sadly leave that wish behind

Yeah as say before that ship sailed and this is a very well line of thought how the church of england itself would evolved

But the ship hasn't yet sailed. Henry hasn't made himself Head of the Church of England yet (that happens late next year) and I'm pretty sure he hasn't yet started cleaning out the abbeys and monasteries that made him so much money.

I may be overthinking this, but why would Henry remake ties with the Church? In OTL he annuled his marriage to Anne and Katheirne was alreadyd dead and he still remained separated from them, while he isn't the Supreme Head of the Church of England, wouldn't be more with Henry's character to simply mantain that the Church of England is separated from the Papacy so he can have all the power over it?

EDIT: Also, how would the Pope aprove of the annulment, woudln't the Emperor go against it since it's a matter of family pride not only of religion for him?

OTL Henry really prided himself on being a good catholic. And if he stays Catholic he gets the Pope agreeing that He, Henry was right, and the Pope was wrong. Anne had reformist leanings, but OTL she lost her head before we really learned if she wanted the Catholic Church to shape up or to leave the it behind.

And at this point I have the Emperor cutting his losses, he knows no one is going to put Mary on the throne of England, she herself acknowledged her illegitimacy.

Hmm...I don't think Henry will reconcile with the Church at this point. The only person who might have the ability to guide the King in that direction is Thomas More but I doubt More would be able to make his voice louder than Anne and Cromwell, both of whom would surely want a split from the Catholic Church.

But without the Act of Succession Thomas More will have a little more room to maneuver, and we don't actually know that Anne was a Protestant, just a reformer.

While Henry could return to the fold (I don't think so, because he probably is already liking the feeling of being the supreme head of the Church in England), I think if his children were protestants (which they'll probably be, with Anne and Crammer being involved in their religious education), they'll probably decide to break with the Church permanently (and maybe even more to have the church in England to be closer to Sweden or Denmark in belief and practices) and if they don't becuase of sheer principle, their descendants would probably do so with the TLs counterreformation, since the Papacy would probably try and force the Church of England to return to more "mainstream" Catholicism

Even though I'm thinking England will be remaining nominally Catholic, I'm seeing enough of a separation that Protestants can flourish in England, with England going protestant in the next generation or so.

 

[Ogrebear]

Hopefully the ’reform of corrupt Abbeys’ is more of a clean up than the OTL purge- some places like Coventry deserve to keep their Abbey church, and a lot of the smaller places taken in the Dissolution where actually harmless as far as I can tell- though reform was probably needed, as it usually is over time with Humans involved.

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Even though I'm thinking England will be remaining nominally Catholic, I'm seeing enough of a separation that Protestants can flourish in England, with England going protestant in the next generation or so.

This is what I was going to bring up. Eventually the people have to be considered because there were enough who disliked the Catholic Church and that they would be heavily swayed by Henry's move and especially by the miracle. They can see basically that the Catholic church is corrupt at this point because it wasn't a certified Catholic Miracle, it was a miracle God did for someone who had basically dissed the church.

So, if Henry goes back to staunch Catholicism without any sort of acceptance of Protestants, he would have a rebellion on his hands and possibly even something as bad as the French Wars of religion.

Better for him to take care of his own soul and let there be more freedom for the Protestants, even if England does turn Protestant in another generation or two it's not his responsibility after he dies. He can even use the Protestants argument in his own favor, explaining that in remaining Catholic

he is acting on his own conscience instead of blindly following the pope. Which is part of what they insisted upon anyway.

Which allows also for the fun irony of Henry himself making a declaration of the importance of freedom of conscience.

 

[Cate13]

“Pope Paul inherited a rather prickly problem. What’s more there wasn’t an obvious solution. Charles V had slightly backed off, mostly because he wasn’t sure what to do either. In the end, Pope Paul went with a time-honored tradition: he threw his predecessor under the bus.

Early in 1534, Pope Paul would recognize the annulment of the marriage between Henry VIII and Katherine of Aragon and approve his marriage to Queen Anne.

As a result, Henry VIII was torn. On one hand, here was the Pope saying Henry was right and the previous pope was wrong. The whole of Europe would know. But on the other hand, Henry had gotten kind of used to not having to listen to anyone. So, he really didn’t want to make nice with the pope.

So, Henry VIII did what he did best, grandstanded and stalled.”

The Great Matter by Trina Carter​

“…assurances that the souls and futures of the people of England never again may be held hostage by a foreign prince. That no other force or power may intercede between…”

Fragment of one of the many letters exchanged between Henry VIII and Pope Paul​

“As letters flowed back and forth between Henry VIII and Pope Paul, Henry VIII reached out to other rulers throughout Europe seeking to create or strengthen diplomatic ties. His main goal was to find a foreign bride for his eldest son Henry FitzRoy. The two prospective brides were Catherine de Medici and Margaret of Austria.”

FitzRoy by Lawrence Dalton​

 

[FalconHonour]

Hehehe! The politics are thickening by the second and I love it!

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Didn't Spain and France both have a veto when it came to selecting the Pope? So, he has no assurance that the next Pope won't do a double reverse and once again refused to accept the annulment.

If political cartoons weren't invented yet in our timeline, they should be here. Only to imagine the comical illustrations by Protestants depicting the crazy politics and decisions by the papacy.

 

[Nivek]

Didn't Spain and France both have a veto when it came to selecting the Pope? So, he has no assurance that the next Pope won't do a double reverse and once again refused to accept the annulment.

If political cartoons weren't invented yet in our timeline, they should be here. Only to imagine the comical illustrations by Protestants depicting the crazy politics and decisions by the papacy.

They did but were more on the fine side as the print is not mainstream yet meaning those paints are beyond luxury goods

 

[Ogrebear]

Somehow reassuring that politics never really changes....

 

[Cate13]

Didn't Spain and France both have a veto when it came to selecting the Pope? So, he has no assurance that the next Pope won't do a double reverse and once again refused to accept the annulment.

I had not heard that. Ya learn something new every day. But even with that, Spain and France didn't get along so they'd probably vote opposite and cancel each other out.

If political cartoons weren't invented yet in our timeline, they should be here. Only to imagine the comical illustrations by Protestants depicting the crazy politics and decisions by the papacy.

I would love to see this, like so much!

 

[JanWellem]

... If political cartoons weren't invented yet in our timeline, they should be here. Only to imagine the comical illustrations by Protestants depicting the crazy politics and decisions by the papacy.

They did but were more on the fine side as the print is not mainstream yet meaning those paints are beyond luxury goods

Woodcut prints were not that expensive and thus quite popular and often less than flattering

The papel donkey of Rome by Lucas Cranach

I'm the pope

Martin Luther, the devil's bagpipe

 

[Cate13]

“You know how sometimes your friends will give you a gift and it’s really not what you wanted? The ‘No, Really, You Shouldn’t’ve” Gift? Well, Henry VIII was the best at giving those gifts.

Sometime in the middle of September 1533, Henry heard his good friend Charles Brandon, Duke of Suffolk was planning on marrying Katherine Willoughby, who was betrothed to Charles’s son, Henry’s nephew, Henry Brandon. Now, Henry VIII had mixed feelings about this. On one hand, if Henry Brandon was no longer betrothed, Henry VIII could use him in continental politics. But on the other hand, hadn’t they all just learned the danger of marrying a relatives’ bride?

So, Henry VIII decided to ‘fix’ the situation. He informed Charles Brandon that he would be marrying Queen Anne’s sister the widow Mary Carey. [1] Neither party was particularly happy with the decision. But what could they do?

Charles had only gotten this far in life by being Henry’s Yes-Man, he couldn’t exactly change strategies now. And Queen Anne was pretty happy with the idea—it tied a supporter of Katherine to her own family—and Thomas and George Boleyn both thought it was a good idea. So, Mary didn’t have anyone willing to go to bat for her.

Early in October of 1533, Charles Brandon and Mary Boleyn would marry. They didn’t have the happiest marriage: she would retire to Suffolk’s estates and rarely venture to court, he would stay in court with a string of mistresses. But on the flip side, their children were extremely attractive.”

The Tudors: A Real-Life Soup Opera by Diana Marks​

[1] The fact that Charles Brandon had married both the King’s sister Mary and the King’s sister-in-law Mary was one of those little ironies that only Henry enjoyed.



“The birth of the Tudor Infants appears to have put Henry VIII in something of a match making mood. Besides arranging the marriage of his brother-in-law to his sister-in-law, Henry VIII would arrange the marriage of his bastard son to Catherine de Medici. As part of the marriage agreement, Henry VIII made Henry FitzRoy King of Ireland.

As the marriage of Henry FitzRoy and Catherine de Medici was finalized, Henry VIII turned his attention to his other bastard daughter, the Lady Mary Tudor. This made Francis I rather nervous. Due to a dearth of appropriate princesses [1] Francis I wanted to arrange the marriage of the Dauphin and Mary Tudor, hoping that she would be legitimized now that she was in her father’s good graces.

So, he sent Prince Francis, Duke of Brittany to England. Purportedly just for a visit, but really to try and woo the Lady Mary. This caused everyone a lot of stress later.”

The Tudors: A Real-Life Soup Opera by Diana Marks​

[1] Francis didn’t want a Spanish princess after the whole hostage situation earlier and considered the German and Italian ladies of insufficient prominence.

 

[VVD0D95]

This is going to kick off isn’t it