King Edward’s great matter
- Thread starter isabella
- Start date
The Duke of Milan is a much better match for Naples than any King of England, specially an unstable one AND in any case more useful to Naples...
Plus again Anne and her son died in May and Maximilian‘s invasion of England will happen about a month after that... so do you really think Richard will be able to start a serious search for a new bride? Plus remember who Max foiled him quite well as Richard believe who Henry Tudor is thinking to claim the English crown, marrying Cecily and has no idea who Maximilian was the one behind the attempted evasion of the Princes of the Tower and who the Tudors, Oxford, Margaret Beaufort (and others... try to guess who) are working for him or who he had ordered to Dorset of bring Edward of Warwick and Margaret of Clarence in Burgundy and to Elisabeth Woodville of remaining in the sanctuary with her other daughters...
Frederick is NOT contributing to Max’s invasion of England (and I am not sure if he know about it) so Hungary will not find any free path from that side
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krieger
Banned
If he (Frederick) isn't contributing for Max to invade England, how did he gathered men needed to even think about invading England? Doesn't Max need to gather is Austrian troops? Because IOTL, when he fought for Britanny, he made himself unable to succesfully fight in Hungary. Carrying out invasion of England now in Max's position is like telling to Corvinus: "Hey, you could grab all my ancestral territories and get away with it and I would be getting some crown, where I'd have to face a lot of pretenders with better right than my wife". Do you see Max doing something like this? And I disagree with duke of Milan being a better match than king, king is always king and what benefits exactly OTL Trastamaras of Naples had from marrying Isabella to Gian Galeazzo? And it's not decided that Margaret of Burgundy will hand Edward and Margaret to Maximilian, after all Edward of Clarence is her nephew and has the better claim than Elizabeth.
Max has troops from Burgundy plus the Edwardian Yorkist AND the Lancastrian forces of Oxford and the Tudors so he do not need any support from his father.
Second Frederick is the ruler of Austria and the Holy Roman Emperor while Max live mostly in Burgundy where he is regent for his son (together with Margaret) so Matthias will not attack Frederick. We are in 1484 not 1492 or 1493 when Frederick was dying or was dead and Max needed to concentrate his energy on Austria, right now his father has still the control and the rule of his own lands and still many years of life (while Max is not yet King of the Romans)
Third Margaret of York has no power independent from Maximilian who is the father of the ruling Duke of Burgundy (who is NOT her blood relative) and Dorset had given Warwick and his sister to his brother-in-law.
Fourth Edward of Warwick is a little boy whose claim is ruined by his father’s attainder AND Elizabeth is still the eldest daughter of the oldest brother in a country who allow female succession plus Maximilian has a decent Lancastrian claim (from John of Gaunt and Blanche of Lancaster) of his own and they have already a son with likely more to come (while Warwick will not have any heir for many years)
Fifth Milan in that age was likely the richest country in the world AND so better than a Kingdom. Plus the alliance with Milan was seen as much important for Naples considering everything had go on in that years between Naples and Milan (as Isabella‘s mother also was a Sforza). In any case better a rich and powerful neighbor with a lesser title or a far away King of dubious legitimacy (we have a Papal enquire about the validity of the wedding of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville here) AND enemies everywhere who will be of no help?
Explain me for what reason Max who has already more resource than Henry Tudor would need still more for being successful.
And if someone had not yet understood that Margaret is firmly in Maximilian’s camp (as they were always allied in Burgundy and she was the one who suggest to him of marrying Elizabeth)
her letters to Richard (where she NEVER said a word about Max’s plans to invade England) were a cover for MaximilIan’s correspondence with Buckingham, who instead of rebelling like OTL is working quite hard for Maximilian (as he is the one who organized the failed evasion of the Princes of the Tower, guaranteed who Elizabeth Woodville received her daughter‘s messages AND consigned Warwick and Margaret to Dorset) and is ready to betray Richard as soon Maximilian land in England, together with the Stanleys
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No. They were killed on Richard‘s order... and if Richard had waited just another couple of hours before sending that men to kill them, they would have not find them AND Edward and Richard would be in Burgundy already months ago (made well clear by Richard POV, alluded in the one about the end of 1483 and in that of Henry Tudor)
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Part 6 July 1484 Elizabeth of England
Mechelen, late July 1484
Elizabeth was reading the latest letter from her husband, alternating the reading with some worried glances in direction of her aunt, as she often had done in the last days, after she was informed of the death of her last brother, as she feared the effect who that news would have on Margaret’s health. Her aunt was strong but the last years had been very hard for all of them, as they had all lost many loved people and Margaret more than anyone else and she feared to leave her almost alone, as would happen soon now: Maximilian had asked her to depart as soon was possible and reach him in London, where she would be crowned as Queen of England, as the council had accepted her a Queen and while Bishop Stillington has refuted to change his version he was unable to give to Cardinal Bourchier and his investigators any proof of his allegations about the Talbot wedding, of which existed no trace outside the words of the Bishop. Cardinal Bourchier had told to the council Rome would need to declare the verdict, but he was unable to find any reason for which the wedding of the late King Edward and Dowager Queen Elizabeth would be invalid AND he would be glad to crown Elizabeth and Maximilian as her consort.
Responding with a smile to an interrogative glance from her aunt, who had caught her, Elizabeth deposed the letter and told her aunt who they had much work to do.
Margaret’s answer surprised her as her aunt told her who sure they had much work to do and to stop to worry for her: she had Burgundy to rule for little Philip and they would be fine and while Richard’s death saddened her, like George he was the author of his own misfortunes and falling in battle was the best end her brother could have at this point. Elizabeth thought who then in the end Tudor’s killing blow had been a mercy, and strange who that came from Meg’s husband-to-be... Well sometimes Fortune liked to play with the lives on the men but had always favored Maximilian in the end. She had once loved uncle Richard but only hate for him remained in her heart after hearing the death of her beloved brothers, at the point who she had been unable to feel sorry for the death of Anne Neville and Edward of Middleham and was only glad for Richard’... Well she sweared to herself once more Meg and Ned would never pay for the crimes of their closest relative and would be ALWAYS member of her close family...
Now she had work to do and she would not use her state, as she was almost sure of being again pregnant, as excuse for not doing her part: was time to send her stepdaughter, little Marguerite, in France so the baggage of the little girls needed to be done and she needed to control who they were adequate to the girl’s rank as France’s Queen-to-be while she and her followings (who included her own son, her sister-in-law, Cecily with her children, plus her cousins Meg, Ned and Annie) needed to sail shortly after Marguerite‘s departure, as she had tried to explain to Philip... her stepson‘s reaction had almost made laugh, both her and her aunt, specially when the boy relaxed once hearing “grandmother Margaret”‘s promise who she would never leave him...
Time to get ready for returning in England and being reunited with Maximilian and her mother and sisters, but for now she had also to work on her German and Latin as she hoped who Maximilian would not be disappointed by her progress...
Elizabeth was reading the latest letter from her husband, alternating the reading with some worried glances in direction of her aunt, as she often had done in the last days, after she was informed of the death of her last brother, as she feared the effect who that news would have on Margaret’s health. Her aunt was strong but the last years had been very hard for all of them, as they had all lost many loved people and Margaret more than anyone else and she feared to leave her almost alone, as would happen soon now: Maximilian had asked her to depart as soon was possible and reach him in London, where she would be crowned as Queen of England, as the council had accepted her a Queen and while Bishop Stillington has refuted to change his version he was unable to give to Cardinal Bourchier and his investigators any proof of his allegations about the Talbot wedding, of which existed no trace outside the words of the Bishop. Cardinal Bourchier had told to the council Rome would need to declare the verdict, but he was unable to find any reason for which the wedding of the late King Edward and Dowager Queen Elizabeth would be invalid AND he would be glad to crown Elizabeth and Maximilian as her consort.
Responding with a smile to an interrogative glance from her aunt, who had caught her, Elizabeth deposed the letter and told her aunt who they had much work to do.
Margaret’s answer surprised her as her aunt told her who sure they had much work to do and to stop to worry for her: she had Burgundy to rule for little Philip and they would be fine and while Richard’s death saddened her, like George he was the author of his own misfortunes and falling in battle was the best end her brother could have at this point. Elizabeth thought who then in the end Tudor’s killing blow had been a mercy, and strange who that came from Meg’s husband-to-be... Well sometimes Fortune liked to play with the lives on the men but had always favored Maximilian in the end. She had once loved uncle Richard but only hate for him remained in her heart after hearing the death of her beloved brothers, at the point who she had been unable to feel sorry for the death of Anne Neville and Edward of Middleham and was only glad for Richard’... Well she sweared to herself once more Meg and Ned would never pay for the crimes of their closest relative and would be ALWAYS member of her close family...
Now she had work to do and she would not use her state, as she was almost sure of being again pregnant, as excuse for not doing her part: was time to send her stepdaughter, little Marguerite, in France so the baggage of the little girls needed to be done and she needed to control who they were adequate to the girl’s rank as France’s Queen-to-be while she and her followings (who included her own son, her sister-in-law, Cecily with her children, plus her cousins Meg, Ned and Annie) needed to sail shortly after Marguerite‘s departure, as she had tried to explain to Philip... her stepson‘s reaction had almost made laugh, both her and her aunt, specially when the boy relaxed once hearing “grandmother Margaret”‘s promise who she would never leave him...
Time to get ready for returning in England and being reunited with Maximilian and her mother and sisters, but for now she had also to work on her German and Latin as she hoped who Maximilian would not be disappointed by her progress...
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So Tudor went to England and did battle with Richard, in which battle Richard was killed?
These past few years surely haven’t been easy for the Plantagenets...hopefully things will calm down now that Elizabeth and Max are Queen and King.
I do not exactly where... likely in somewhere between Wales and London...
Max had pretty easy life as Buckingham, Oxford and Henry Tudor’s relatives had done a good job in preparing his invasion...
plus Richard had a lot of betrayals on the battlefield as Buckingham and Northumberland switched to the other side on the battlefield (as planned), Norfolk followed them a moment later with the surprise of everyone (he was highly pragmatic, reason for which he was able to keep his title and lands and get Anne St Leger, who is pennyless but also a paternal cousin of Elizabeth, as bride for his grandson), while the Stanleys and the Suffolks never arrived.
Richard was killed during the battle (I am not sure if Richard was trying to reach Maximilian, who was NOT near, when Henry Tudor reached and killed him... In any case Henry was searching him as wanted kill him)
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Things in England will be much calmer now...
Lincoln and his brothers here sweared fealty to their cousin Elizabeth, and more or less all the English lords accepted to be ruled by Maximilian. Elizabeth is the Yorkist heiress, Maximilian has (legitimate) Lancastrian blood and Warwick will be married outside England so the situation is stable, plus the Pope (not Sixtus but his successor who will be happy to do it) reaffirmed the validity of the wedding of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville and the legitimacy of their issue taking away all the remaining shadows from Stillington’s allegations
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krieger
Banned
Troops from Burgundy? There is nice thing called "great privilege" introduced by Mary and Burgundian estates might not necessarily choose to support Max in his bid for English crown, so I doubt in Burgundian full-fledged participation in Max's campaign. Lancastrians? What do they have out of supporting Max? There are shitton of persons with equal or even better Lancastrian claims than Max, so why do they need foreigner to rule them, when they could've do it all by themselves. And would Max let his father lose all of his ancestral lands to Hungarians? Because taking away soldiers form Austria (and Max would have to gather at least some of Austrians, because Burgundian estates wouldn't agree to participate in war in England) is essentialy like invitation for Matthias to raid what was not raided before. Margaret of York lived in Burgundy for years, when Max is not-so-popular foreginer, so their relationship is more equal. Would Margaret go for Max having custody over Edward and Margaret of Clarence? Max would dispose of Edward of Clarence, who is a threat to his own son's claim to England. I don't really see Edward of Clarence being married or even free as a ward of Max. Does England allow female succesion? Matilda never became ruling Queen and IOTL it was Henry Tudor, who became king, not his mother, Margaret Beaufort nor his wife, Elizabeth of York. While it's not as biased as France, I think England would have it's fair share of troubles with women ruling in their own right.
England allowed female succession, and the York claim was from the female line, and that of Lancaster also do not exclude it (they had got to great lengths for excluding only Philippa of Clarence). Matilda was unable to become ruling Queen mostly because the English lord do not wanted being ruled by her husband Geoffrey. Here Elizabeth of York is simply the most sensible option available. OTL Henry Tudor had gone to great lengths to crown himself as reigning King instead of ruling as consort of Elizabeth of York (who would have made stronger his reign) but Max, being both foreign and used to rule jure-uxoris (and with lands of his own to inherit and a likely Imperial crown in his future) has no trouble in crowning Elizabeth and rule with her.
The Burgundian estates agreed fo finance him as they had seen it as a good investment: a victory would give them again a friendly England and free them for Maximilian now without any need to wait Philip’s majority or Frederick’s death (both of them quite distant in time).
Margaret of York has no power over Maximilian, who has nothing to fear from Warwick by the way: Elizabeth had an higher claim on the English crown (as her legitimacy will be fully restored by the Pope very soon) than that of Warwick (who is also excluded from the line of succession in virtue of his father’s attainder) AND has the intention to keep the boy loyal. Plus Edward will be married outside England (to Anne of Brittany) and his English title will go to one of his nephews (a younger son of Henry Tudor, who ATL married Margaret of Clarence).
Lancstrians supported Max because they want go back at home, and he is their best chance to do it. Max’s claim that is better than the one of Henry Tufor AND he is the husband of the Yorkist heiress and father of her son (who has only few months so, while born in Vienna, will be an English King with both Yorkist and Lancastrian blood).
The only people with better Lancastrian claim than Max are his maternal relatives from Portugal aka the King of Portugal, his son, grandson and daughter and the children of his late brother (of which right now area alive only Manuel of Beja and his sisters, Eleanor married to heir of Portugal and the widowed Isabella of Braganza with her two children) and none of them would be seen as a better choice than Max (who again is married to the Yorkist heiress AND had all the intentions to rule there in her name). Frederick do not need Maximilian for keeping at bay Matthias Corvinus (and in any case will NOT ask Maximilian’s help if he can do without it AND he is not yet in that situation. Max also would do the same with his father).
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So is Maximilian ruling jure uxoris or will he be crowned in his own right by virtue of his Lancastrian ancestry?
Maximilian is ruling England jure uxoris who is the solution favored by everyone as Elizabeth’s claim is the strongest and Max himself, being foreign AND without any inferiority complex, has never be interested in claiming that crown for himself.
Ah, smart choice. English were never too fond of foreigners, even those related to the royal family.
Exactly. Plus Max has learned a lot both from his father and from his own dealing with Burgundian councils to know how get what he wished AND find who dealing with the English lords is easier than dealing with Burgundians or German princes so...
krieger
Banned
After death of Edward of Westminster, Yorks were his closest male-line relatives, and one could justify their claim by paternal kinship with deceased Henry VI. And Richard wanted to succeed to the throne, because Edward of Westminster was in fact bastard of Margaret of Anjou and Somerset or whomever else she slept with. Before, he was loyal to Lancastrians and so were his children. While female claim is not completely excluded as in France, lords would like male claiming the throne through female more that female herself claiming this throne. The fact, that Tudor was even able to bypass his mother and his wife, shows that. Crowning Elizabeth and ruling as her consort would made Tudor's grip weaker, after the death of Elizabeth he'd need to abdicate the throne and IOTL he planned to remarry and his sons without Yorkist ancestry would be as much heirs to the throne as Arthur and Henry were. Warwick is a male-line Plantagenet who also has Beaufort-Lancastrian blood through Cecily Neville will always be a trouble for Max, unless he brainwashes him into not having any ambition to claim England. And Britanny is still too close to England and Warwick could meddle from there, especially if Philip the Handsome and his half-brother, prince of Wales wouldn't get along (and considering how much of a jerk Philip was, it is no surprise if they weren't getting along, especially if Edward wasn't such a shithead like his older brother).
Mortimer/Yorks had already tried to get the Crown before and Richard’s loyalty to Henry VI was owed simply to the fact who while the King was childless he was by default the heir and starting a civil war instead of waiting his death was not a good idea, specially when he often had the de-facto rule of the Kingdom thanks to the mental health of the King.
Still Henry Tudor had made some choices in a direction but for whatever reason he has done it Maximilian do not need to make the same ones as he has different models and status.
Philip here will be less a jerk than OTL AND will be married to Anne of York as soon he is fourteen as the Burgundian Estates see another York match with much favor and that will trap him quite well... plus Philip will still die quite young (earlier than OTL), just after securing a great (ATL) heiress for his own son (and sort of avenging the grandfather he has never met).
Warwick and Margaret will stay loyal to Elizabeth (and grateful for being trusted by them as their family history would have justified Maximilian and Elizabeth, if they had done different choices with them)
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krieger
Banned
Did they? Edmund Mortimer reported a plot aimed to crown exactly him to Henry V, it doesn't seem like he wanted the crown for himself. And he died childlessly, and neither his father Roger or uncle Edmund claimed the crown for himself. And Richard had Edward of Westminster recognized prince of Wales, when he still believed Edward to be Henry's son. It doesn't seem like the actions of men wanting the crown for themselves. But why English lords agreed to such choices made by Tudor? The reasons behind this won't vanish, because it is Maximilian, who is married to Elizabeth of York. Interesting, do you think that with half-brother he'll be less spoiled than he was OTL? And maybe his wife not being Juana and not idolizing him, his ego would grow far less than IOTL.