it was the inappropiate aspect of it also maybe the whole part joking about raping people
An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
Vince
Monthly Donor
Hot take: This entire war in Europe and Asia, D3, and all this world building with over a year of updates was just so B444 could have a Greek ship lord say he "wasnt expecting a Spanish Armada" joke line
My two cents for anyone who cares:
If the Zeng lose, it’s likely they’ll have a similar path as the Qing OTL after the Opium Wars/Russian invasion. Trying to turn inward and plug their ears leading to increasing international humiliation and internal unrest culminating in fractious collapse. If the Zeng win, a Korean protectorate will probably be established but long-term Chinese control over the area is unsustainable without some major change. Both these options aren’t great but one is still a bit better. What simply doesn’t change here is that for its entire existence, at this point both TTL and OTL, China has not had a pony major state competition. Jurchen or Mongol attacks from the north never spurred any growth or innovation, and if they succeeded the victors would just take over China instead of creating another empire to its north - and besides, there was never any technological competition between China and the steppe. China has, for all intents and purposes, existed in a competition vaccum for its whole history, and the centralization of Chinese governance means the only way any change is going to happen is with a fracturing of central power and civil war (this happened OTL during the Warring States period and again in the 1920s and 30s). The Zeng simply cannot adapt to this new reality; they have never needed to or even considered doing so.
Time and again, conflicts between numerically superior Chinese forces and late 18th-early 19th century European-style troops end in eventual European victory after much loss of life on the Chinese side. The addition of Korea’s mountains, bitterly cold winters, and Roman naval power (barring Spanish intervention) jeopardizing Zeng resupply, will make this a meat grinder of massive proportions if the Chinese decide to keep funneling in men and the Romans-Koreans-Japanese play their cards right. The only wild card here, of course, is the Spanish Armada.
If the Zeng lose, it’s likely they’ll have a similar path as the Qing OTL after the Opium Wars/Russian invasion. Trying to turn inward and plug their ears leading to increasing international humiliation and internal unrest culminating in fractious collapse. If the Zeng win, a Korean protectorate will probably be established but long-term Chinese control over the area is unsustainable without some major change. Both these options aren’t great but one is still a bit better. What simply doesn’t change here is that for its entire existence, at this point both TTL and OTL, China has not had a pony major state competition. Jurchen or Mongol attacks from the north never spurred any growth or innovation, and if they succeeded the victors would just take over China instead of creating another empire to its north - and besides, there was never any technological competition between China and the steppe. China has, for all intents and purposes, existed in a competition vaccum for its whole history, and the centralization of Chinese governance means the only way any change is going to happen is with a fracturing of central power and civil war (this happened OTL during the Warring States period and again in the 1920s and 30s). The Zeng simply cannot adapt to this new reality; they have never needed to or even considered doing so.
Time and again, conflicts between numerically superior Chinese forces and late 18th-early 19th century European-style troops end in eventual European victory after much loss of life on the Chinese side. The addition of Korea’s mountains, bitterly cold winters, and Roman naval power (barring Spanish intervention) jeopardizing Zeng resupply, will make this a meat grinder of massive proportions if the Chinese decide to keep funneling in men and the Romans-Koreans-Japanese play their cards right. The only wild card here, of course, is the Spanish Armada.
I see what you are talking about, but in the event of a loss, I don't think China will turn inwards again. Whether it will break again... who knows. It is possible, though I don't think it likely. China still needs silver, silver that comes from Mexico and is shipped through... Pyrgos. Now that China is hooked up to that silver supply, any attempt to cut that supply will result in bad things for China. They will want to keep that supply at any rate. But the Romans control Pyrgos. So China has two options to retain the supply: become so weak that Rome and Japan (and Korea too) can play havoc in China; or be strong enough that the Romans must think twice before engaging China. The barbarian world doesn't have the stigma of being racist hypocrital drug dealers that it had in OTL China after the Opium Wars.
As for the competition vacuum, it was certainly true before Shah Rukh. Now though, China is inextricably woven into the international fabric. Chinese armies directly faught Roman tagmata in those hallowed fields of Taji... and lost. Rome and China have consistently been adversaries since Shah Rukh marched west. And now Romania is at China's doorstep. Plus Japan and Korea are rising powers that command some respect. China is not alone in its greatness and they've known it since the emissaries of the Han. They can and will learn. The Zeng have become masters of China by emulation after all.
If China turns inwards how much does that screw the Ottomans? Ottoman trade with China is helping refill an empty Ottoman treasury. We read about how Chinese trade and subsidies are mostly responsible for Ottoman defenses in Mosul after all. Take that away and the Ottomans could be in even more trouble in the middle part of this century and beyond until they find a source of income to replace it.
Evilprodigy
Donor
You guys are treating China as if it's something from the 18th or 19th century. This is the 17th.
This war is far more similar to the Japanese Invasion of Korea in the 1590s, the Sino-Dutch conflicts in the 1620s and 30s, the Sino-Russian border conflicts of the mid-late 17th century, and the conquest of Taiwan in the 1660s (kicking out the dutch) and 1680s (conquering the natives). And during that time there was an entire change of dynasty too.
Stop thinking about the Opium Wars, those conflicts are two centuries removed, or the fall of the Qing.
This is much MUCH more analogous to the rise of the Qing than anything else. China was only recently unified under Zeng control in the 1610s after HEAVY losses.
China right now, especially given what B444 said in the update about the Chinese consciousness about foreign invasion, is in an expansionist and rising period not a complacent inward looking one. This war will most likely see in China, win or lose, an end (or at least limit to) this dynasty's expansionist phase given the cyclical nature of Chinese history. But no way in hell is it going to lead to a dynastic collapse or period of warlordism, it was just unified and hasn't had the time to grow inwardly corrupt. That and the swaths of dead people area reminder to the national consciousness in China that civil war is bad. Egos that have forgotten such a thing have not yet risen in this short period of time.
This war is far more similar to the Japanese Invasion of Korea in the 1590s, the Sino-Dutch conflicts in the 1620s and 30s, the Sino-Russian border conflicts of the mid-late 17th century, and the conquest of Taiwan in the 1660s (kicking out the dutch) and 1680s (conquering the natives). And during that time there was an entire change of dynasty too.
Stop thinking about the Opium Wars, those conflicts are two centuries removed, or the fall of the Qing.
This is much MUCH more analogous to the rise of the Qing than anything else. China was only recently unified under Zeng control in the 1610s after HEAVY losses.
China right now, especially given what B444 said in the update about the Chinese consciousness about foreign invasion, is in an expansionist and rising period not a complacent inward looking one. This war will most likely see in China, win or lose, an end (or at least limit to) this dynasty's expansionist phase given the cyclical nature of Chinese history. But no way in hell is it going to lead to a dynastic collapse or period of warlordism, it was just unified and hasn't had the time to grow inwardly corrupt. That and the swaths of dead people area reminder to the national consciousness in China that civil war is bad. Egos that have forgotten such a thing have not yet risen in this short period of time.
True, but there may be characters who simply don't care about past suffering so long as they get their own sweet fiefdom. Plus the Zeng will put everything they have into this war once it becomes known that Romania has a stake in Korea's side. The opportunity of settling scores and securing the supply of Mexican silver is simply too great. If they lose too much in this war, then even if the Zeng are able to retain Korea, they will be terminally weakened. China certainly won't collapse like a house of cards, but this Great Eastern War could be one cause for the future collapse of China.
Evilprodigy
Donor
There is a possibility for a selfish person to rise and cause problems but it is less likely in this period of a Chinese dynasty for that to happen. I doubt that the Zeng are going to go full total war just because a single Rhoman katepanate is sending ships. This is not armies of Rhomans marching into China, it's a bunch of barbarians on boats. Japan is the only thing that would get the Zeng to act differently due to their large army that will directly fight the Chinese. The Rhomans are an afterthought here and are not the main characters of an East Asian story.
Any collapse of China would be at least a century now, long enough time that this war won't matter in the grand scheme of things. The Zeng want Mexican silver but they have no desire to use something other than Pyrgos for it. To 'secure' the supply of silver doesn't mean conquering, it means keeping the trade flowing and China is more than happy ITTL and OTL to use Staple Ports to feed that desire even from countries that have warred with it in the past.
True dat. A question though. What if the Romans divert the flow of silver to Japan? Tell them to make lots and lots of porcelain or whatever and "advise" Mexican galleons to buy stuff in Japan?
I’m rooting for a Stalemate here- I don’t want Korea annexed, but I’ve grown quite fond of the Zeng, and it’d be nice to have a China that isn’t balkanised, irrelevant or communist in a timeline.
Zeng driven back to the Yalu perhaps? Japan and Korea ally to contain China beyond the Yalu while Romania withdraws to solidify its hold on Island Asia and give a good slap-in-the-face to the Spanish, eventually getting too distracted by European troubles and the Mideast rematch to meddle too much in Far Eastern affairs.
Evilprodigy
Donor
That doesn't work. China wants silver because they accept it as currency rather than need it. Japan actually needs things imported, no mexican galleon would bring silver to Japan when they can turn a greater profit on other goods like spices or sandalwood.
Hong Kong and Macau for China OTL, Nagasaki for Japan OTL, Calais for England OTL, or ITTL for China: Pyrgos. They are ports that limit administrative costs associated with international trade tariffs and regulations by mandating that all trade of a good occur in the said port. Governments will then put their offices and clerks there to manage collections rather than do it across an entire country. It also helps limit foreign access to a country which could potentially be considered as a destabilizing force. These ports are often located in geographically distinct areas for such a reason, since smuggling is easy without geographic barriers. An Island like Hong Kong or Dejima, a peninsula like Macau, or a port over the water like Calais or Pyrgos work well for this.
Well, everyone accepts silver as currency. There's nothing special there. AFAIK though, China couldn't itself mine enough silver to keep its humoungous economy going, so the whole thing depended on high-value trade to carry on. High silver intake that is. So if the Romans could starve China of its single largest source of silver, then there goes the economy. Especially since Chinese taxes were usually paid in silver if I'm not completely wrong.
Then again, I could indeed be so wrong that it isn't even funny, so tell me more of your thoughts @Evilprodigy.
Evilprodigy
Donor
Yeah that is why Silver was a medium of exchange, everyone mined it and everyone used it. They didn't really NEED silver, per se, they just accepted it because that is how currency works everywhere at this point. Almost everywhere in the world bases its currency on something rare in order to make counterfeiting difficult. China isn't special for not having enough silver to meet demand, that's true of almost every country in the world.
As for taxes being paid in silver it is technically true but not really. "paid in silver" is just a crude way of saying "pay your taxes in cash." All money was made from silver in China and it was on the silver standard, just like everyone else, so even the occasional copper, gold, or alloyed coin just represents a certain value of silver. Hell, that's how all bimetallic currencies operate. The British Pound for example, despite being made of gold, represented a value of one tower pound of Silver because that was the standard all currency was pegged to.
The reason China became a black hole for silver was because it's the only they'd accept historically. They didn't want European trade goods, there just wasn't a demand for it. That's part of why Opium filled that niche, it was one of the first goods in demand in China that they couldn't make themselves and it was a hell of a whole lot cheaper for Europeans to get than silver AND you could put more of it in a ship since pound for pound refined Opium was more valuable than silver.
Chinese silver scarcity was also due to a hoarding culture prevalent in the country. The wealthy would just lock up their silver and not spend it, so the silver didn't circulate. Once silver arrived in the country it'd just go into some rich guy's vault. Rampant corruption of this sort was a serious problem in the later periods of most Chinese dynasties, a period which coincided with European trade activity in the Orient during the 18th and 19th centuries. The most egregious and famous example was an official named Heshen who served in the later 18th century for I think a bit over 20 years. He had in his hoard silver and gold and other goods valued at around 15 years of the revenue of the Qing government. It just sat there, in a hoard, not doing anything.
Ouch. That's some serious corruption.
Well thanks for the information. Never a day goes by without me learning something new! I sorta knew some of that, but this filled in the gaps.
So do you think that the Zeng will eventually tank, say by the 1850s around?