The World of Turtledove's In the Presence of Mine Enemies

[Eckener]

I definitely wanted you to have first crack at the names just want to be sure you were interested in all of them. I guess what Im wondering about is that based on events in the timeline it seems that at one point between WW2 and the present the Reich and Japan seem to have been .much closer with the Reich nuking Sydney for Japan in WW3 and allowing them to establish the base in San Diego (and take Alaska and Hawaii ?) Why was the Reich so generous with them unless they really were friends-as they were on the paper of the Axis pact OTL ?

Going back to OTL, and also in the book, Germany and Japan's alliance was always more of one of convenience and "spheres of influence." Germany and Japan really didn't aide one another in WWII. And in Nazi racial ideology, the Japanese were seen as inferior (which the book touches on). I always took Germany and Japan's Axis alliance as more of a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situation as opposed to genuine friendship.

Looking back, maybe the Reich wouldn't have nuked Sydney (maybe the Japanese did that on their own). Definitely flexible on that point.

The other example in media would, of course, be High Castle. I feel that in that series they really had Japan too far behind Germany technologically to make sense, but I think the tension between the Reich and Imperial Japan that the show portrays isn't unimaginable.

And Turtledove basically alludes to a present Cold War-like situation of MAD existing between the two empires to explain why they both allowed the other to exist (or probably more accurately, why the Germans ignored their own racial ideology when it came to Japan.

If anything, ITTL, the Japanese and the Germans have a cordial relationship all the way up through WWIII, and now with the United States gone and the two of them being the only real superpowers, tensions slowly rise and relations between the two empires cool.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Going back to OTL, and also in the book, Germany and Japan's alliance was always more of one of convenience and "spheres of influence." Germany and Japan really didn't aide one another in WWII. And in Nazi racial ideology, the Japanese were seen as inferior (which the book touches on). I always took Germany and Japan's Axis alliance as more of a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situation as opposed to genuine friendship.

Looking back, maybe the Reich wouldn't have nuked Sydney (maybe the Japanese did that on their own). Definitely flexible on that point.

The other example in media would, of course, be High Castle. I feel that in that series they really had Japan too far behind Germany technologically to make sense, but I think the tension between the Reich and Imperial Japan that the show portrays isn't unimaginable.

And Turtledove basically alludes to a present Cold War-like situation of MAD existing between the two empires to explain why they both allowed the other to exist (or probably more accurately, why the Germans ignored their own racial ideology when it came to Japan.

If anything, ITTL, the Japanese and the Germans have a cordial relationship all the way up through WWIII, and now with the United States gone and the two of them being the only real superpowers, tensions slowly rise a relations between the two empires cool.

Wasn't there an attempt to make the Japanese honorary Aryans ? Any interest in electoral maps depicting the elections of 1932, 1936, 1940, 1944, 1948, 1952, 1956, 1960, 1964 and 1968 ? Also given the different WW2 outcome were Alaska and Hawaii ever actually American states?

 

[Eckener]

Wasn't there an attempt to make the Japanese honorary Aryans ? Any interest in electoral maps depicting the elections of 1932, 1936, 1940, 1944, 1948, 1952, 1956, 1960, 1964 and 1968 ? Also given the different WW2 outcome were Alaska and Hawaii ever actually American states?

An attempt OTL, or in the book? I'm not sure eitherway, tbh. I'll have to look into it.

Any interest...as in me making them? I probably won't have the time tbh, but if others are interested in making them I'd be cool with that.

I'm not sure about Alaska or Hawaii. I think you could make the case that they *probably* both would become states prior to 1971, but its also conceivable that they didn't. If I had to pick only one to get statehood by then, it would probably be Hawaii, seen as an important forward base against the threat from the Japanese Empire.

 

[Zoidberg12]

@Zoidberg12 , these lists look great!

The only thing for sure that I think may be missing is Hawaii, which was given to Japan after WWIII.

I would say that the USA would also be listed as "Occupied and Self-Governing" or some other similar title. Also, Canada has been "dissolved" and integrated into the United States.

Also, I don't think that India would be made a Reichskommissariat. Indians got credit as Aryans. Now, India would be a mess for sure, but I think it would be something other than an RK.

Thanks for reminding me about Hawaii. I edited my post and added it in.

I'm pretty sure the book mentions the USA and Canada being ruled as separate entities, but I could be wrong about that.

I'm not sure under what kind of administration India would be under. Maybe India is a special kind of Reichskommisariat different from the others.

 

[Zoidberg12]

I think we need more lists of leaders. I'll start with the three main Latin European empires of this world; Italy, Spain and Portugal. I'll do a list for the leaders of Italy first.

List of Monarchs of Italy

Victor Emmanuel II (House of Savoy) (1861-1878)
Umberto I (Savoy) (1878-1900)
Victor Emmanuel III (Savoy) (1900-1947)
Umberto II (Savoy) (1947-1983)
Victor Emmanuel IV (Savoy) (1983- )

List of Duces of Italy

Benito Mussolini (Partido Nationale Fascista) (1922-1958) [1]
Italo Balbo (PNF) (1958-1966) [2]
Galeazzo Ciano (PNF) (1966-1972) [3]
Junio Valerio Borghese (PNF) (1972-1974) [4]
Giorgio Almirante (PNF) (1974-1988) [5]
Gino Birindelli (PNF) (1988-2003) [6]
Giancarlo Fini (PNF) (2003- )

[1] After WWII, he continued to maintain strong ties, both diplomatic and economic, with Germany. Died in Rome of a stroke on May 26, 1958, two months before his 75th birthday. His funeral was the largest in Rome up to that point and since.
[2] Balbo's eight year rule was mostly a continuation of his predecessor's, but his rule also saw continued funding for the Italian colonial empire, and continued good relations with Germany as well as unsuccessful attempts to improve relations with the United States, Canada and the North American Treaty Organization. Died of cancer on October 15, 1966 aged seventy.
[3] Ciano was more skeptical of German hegemony and desired for Italy to become a world power separate from the German sphere, much to the chagrin of Berlin. Ciano, like Balbo, tried to improve relations with the United States, Canada and the North American Treaty Organization, albeit unsuccessfully. Ciano's plans for a "Latin Alliance" with Spain and Portugal to counterbalance German hegemony were also unsuccessful. Due to tense relations between Berlin and Rome, Italy stayed out of WWIII. Ciano died on September 24, 1972 of a heart attack at the age of 69, although many suspect he was poisoned either by German agents of his own domestic rivals.
[4] Unlike his predecessor, the Black Prince was more pro-German and he made sure Italy was a de-facto member of the German Alliance through a number of treaties. Nevertheless, his rule lasted for less than two years and he died in 1974.
[5] While not an outright Germanophile, Almirante kept good relations with Germany which would serve as the precedent for his successors. He also purged the National-Syndicalist and anti-monarchist factions of the PNF.
[6] Died of natural causes on November 24, 2003, aged 92.

 

[Rognvald]

Well. Here's half the list. It's bedtime now. Haha!

1. George Romney - Similar career to OTL. Was appointed as Secretary of the Interior under President Humphrey in his second term, starting in 1969. Was home in Michigan during the attacks, and claimed to be the highest ranking surviving member of the administration, and this styled himself “Acting President.” He would work with surviving parts of the Army and Airforce that did not side with Thurmond, and would lead the resistance that did not fully surrender until 1973. Romney himself was captured in December of 1972, and was executed on December 15. His son Mitt was at university in Utah at the time of the invasion. He survived the war itself, but is rounded up in 1974 when the new regime, at the behest of the Nazis, went after the LDS Church. Mitt would die in the Dry Gulch Camp in Georgia in 1976.

Was reading through your lists when I saw this part. I agree with your interpretations for the most, except for the idea the Nazis would order their puppet regime to go after the LDS Church. The 14,000-odd Mormons in Germany were never targeted by the Reich- many actively collaborated, save for a few notable exemptions of resistance. Mormon doctrine heavily emphasizes cooperation with state government, and they bent over backwards for Nazi dictates. They didn’t use “Israel” or “Jews” as a term, even avoiding singing hymns that mentioned them.

I think a more fascinating take would be an examination of Mormon collaboration in the puppet United States. The Church would be almost vital in helping the American government determine the racial heritage of its citizens, with its extensive genealogical records. The emphasis on traditional family values, the priesthood ban for blacks (unlikely to be lifted in this period), and the leadership’s general anti-leftist slant at this juncture would make Mormonism a likely ally of the Reich. The Intermountain West may become a zone of guerilla warfare between pro-Nazi Mormons/Native Americans (given Hitler’s fascination with them) and anti-Nazi cowboys and leftist miners.

 

[MaxGerke01]

An attempt OTL, or in the book? I'm not sure eitherway, tbh. I'll have to look into it.

Any interest...as in me making them? I probably won't have the time tbh, but if others are interested in making them I'd be cool with that.

It was straight from the horse's mouth...… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_Aryan
Electoral maps would add alot to the timeline if someone would do them.

Was reading through your lists when I saw this part. I agree with your interpretations for the most, except for the idea the Nazis would order their puppet regime to go after the LDS Church. The 14,000-odd Mormons in Germany were never targeted by the Reich- many actively collaborated, save for a few notable exemptions of resistance. Mormon doctrine heavily emphasizes cooperation with state government, and they bent over backwards for Nazi dictates. They didn’t use “Israel” or “Jews” as a term, even avoiding singing hymns that mentioned them.

I think a more fascinating take would be an examination of Mormon collaboration in the puppet United States. The Church would be almost vital in helping the American government determine the racial heritage of its citizens, with its extensive genealogical records. The emphasis on traditional family values, the priesthood ban for blacks (unlikely to be lifted in this period), and the leadership’s general anti-leftist slant at this juncture would make Mormonism a likely ally of the Reich. The Intermountain West may become a zone of guerilla warfare between pro-Nazi Mormons/Native Americans (given Hitler’s fascination with them) and anti-Nazi cowboys and leftist miners.

I agree with what you say here about the official LDS church in the US especially in light of the unfortunate precedent of Mormons in Nazi Germany OTL. While many Mormons of conscience like George Romney may have opposed the new regime on a religious basis there are many who would have gone along with it especially if they were left alone if they did so. The official stance of the church could be collaborationist with notable exceptions who did not cooperate and were excommunicated by the church and targeted by Omaha....

 

[Pelranius]

It just occurred to me that one could improve the plausibility (relatively, of course) for the Man in the High Castle by setting it in ATL 1990s, after Nazi Germany crushed the US in the 1970s,

Of course, Amazon would then have to pay Turtledove to avoid any legal problems.

 

[Rognvald]

I agree with what you say here about the official LDS church in the US especially in light of the unfortunate precedent of Mormons in Nazi Germany OTL. While many Mormons of conscience like George Romney may have opposed the new regime on a religious basis there are many who would have gone along with it especially if they were left alone if they did so. The official stance of the church could be collaborationist with notable exceptions who did not cooperate and were excommunicated by the church and targeted by Omaha....

I might actually dig more into this concept, if you guys don’t mind me intruding on your thread? I have several ideas swimming around in my head now...

 

[MaxGerke01]

It just occurred to me that one could improve the plausibility (relatively, of course) for the Man in the High Castle by setting it in ATL 1990s, after Nazi Germany crushed the US in the 1970s,

Of course, Amazon would then have to pay Turtledove to avoid any legal problems.

Well TMINTHC like the similar plotted Star Trek episode City on the Edge of Forever was written in the 19060's so perhaps the idea of a Nazi victory against the US in the late 1940s was still considered plausible but by the time Turtledove wrote INTPOME in the early2000's this was seen as thoroughly implausible. I m not sure if Turtledove has the 1st AH that depicts the Nazis conquering the US after a WW3 although I know that the Proteus Operation by James P Hogan presents that as being on the verge of happening before some time travel corrects things and it was published in 1985.

I might actually dig more into this concept, if you guys don’t mind me intruding on your thread? I have several ideas swimming around in my head now...

Final approval would have to come from the OP as this is his tread.

 

[Zoidberg12]

List of Caudillos of Spain

Francisco Franco (Falange Española de las JONS) (1939-1975)
Luis Carrero Blanco (FE de las JONS) (1975-1986)
Jaime Milans del Bosch (FE de las JONS) (1986-1997) [1]
Antonio Tejero (FE de las JONS) (1997- )

[1] Largely sidelined and purged much of the Monarchist and Carlist members of the FE de las JONS, and thus firmly entrenched the Falangist and Francoist factions of the party and in the Spanish government.

List of Presidents of Portugal

Óscar Carmona (União Nacional) (1922-1951)
Francisco Craveiro Lopes (UN) (1951-1958)
Américo Tomás (UN) (1958-1980)
Marcelo Caetano (UN) (1980) [1]

List of Prime Ministers of Portugal

António de Oliveira Salazar (União Nacional) (1932-1968)
Marcelo Caetano (UN) (1968-1980) [1]

List of Caudilhos of Portugal

Marcelo Caetano (UN) (1980-1984) [1]
António de Spínola (UN) (1980-1996)
Francisco da Costa Gomes (UN) (1996-2001)
João Nuno de Oliveira Guterres (UN) (2001- )

[1] In 1980, Caetano combined the offices of President and Prime Minister into the single office of Caudilho. That same year, a new constitution was ratified that disbanded the Estado Novo/Second Portuguese Republic and established the Portuguese State, a fascist and integralist nation. While the new regime courted fascists/integralists, the regime sidelined and suppressed monarchists.

 

[Eckener]

Thanks for reminding me about Hawaii. I edited my post and added it in.

I'm pretty sure the book mentions the USA and Canada being ruled as separate entities, but I could be wrong about that.

I'm not sure under what kind of administration India would be under. Maybe India is a special kind of Reichskommisariat different from the others.

I think we've decided that USA and Canada were still listed separately. I'm not sure exactly what that looks like, but I can agree that we need to keep them separate in order to be true to the original source text.

As for India...I would assume something similar to what happened in Britain or France? Home-grown fascists in charge, subservient to Germany.

I think we need more lists of leaders. I'll start with the three main Latin European empires of this world; Italy, Spain and Portugal. I'll do a list for the leaders of Italy first.

...

Your lists look great to me! Ditto the ones on Spain & Portugal.

Was reading through your lists when I saw this part. I agree with your interpretations for the most, except for the idea the Nazis would order their puppet regime to go after the LDS Church. The 14,000-odd Mormons in Germany were never targeted by the Reich- many actively collaborated, save for a few notable exemptions of resistance. Mormon doctrine heavily emphasizes cooperation with state government, and they bent over backwards for Nazi dictates. They didn’t use “Israel” or “Jews” as a term, even avoiding singing hymns that mentioned them.

I think a more fascinating take would be an examination of Mormon collaboration in the puppet United States. The Church would be almost vital in helping the American government determine the racial heritage of its citizens, with its extensive genealogical records. The emphasis on traditional family values, the priesthood ban for blacks (unlikely to be lifted in this period), and the leadership’s general anti-leftist slant at this juncture would make Mormonism a likely ally of the Reich. The Intermountain West may become a zone of guerilla warfare between pro-Nazi Mormons/Native Americans (given Hitler’s fascination with them) and anti-Nazi cowboys and leftist miners.

So I actually didn't know that about the Mormons in Germany. Sounds like that needs to be revised, but I still think that the Romneys would be targeted as a political elite family that would not be supportive of the new regime.

It was straight from the horse's mouth...… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_Aryan
Electoral maps would add alot to the timeline if someone would do them.

So from that article, it's clear that this "honorary" status was usually done for political or economic expediency. While it wouldn't be revoked, the Germans would still consider themselves racially superior to the Japanese, and this was evident in Turtledove's book, where the characters mention several times the perceived inferiority of Japan, it's culture, and its technology.

I might actually dig more into this concept, if you guys don’t mind me intruding on your thread? I have several ideas swimming around in my head now...

Would love to see what you come up with!

 

[MaxGerke01]

I think we've decided that USA and Canada were still listed separately. I'm not sure exactly what that looks like, but I can agree that we need to keep them separate in order to be true to the original source text.

Apparently they are shown as being separate on a map in a German elementary school classroom. Wether or not they were actually separate in reality is a different issue. It makes sense to have the Germans treat them as a single country both from the perspectives of administrative efficiency and punitive measure. Both countries lost the war and lost their independence. Canada lost the monarchy and the US(and probably Canada) is losing at least millions in tribute to Germany every year so what reason does Germany have to deal with the two as separate countries other than as a cynical nod to a political reality that no longer exists ? The map could be a bit of propaganda...

 

[athgtq16129]

List of Duces of Italy

Italo Balbo (PNF) (1958-1966) [2]

We must remember that in OTL Balbo was accidentally killed by friendly fire in 28 June 1940, the war had barely started and Italy was already messing everything up, whenever someone makes Balbo the next Duce in an Axis victory world, should that TL have some sort of POD to explain how Balbo is still alive? assuming that the war started normally, I myself don't really care about making any excuses for it.

Another interesting scenario is Corneliu Codreanu becoming the more extreme and charismatic Căpitanul/Conducător of Romania even though he died in 1938.

 

[Anarcho-Occultist]

So from that article, it's clear that this "honorary" status was usually done for political or economic expediency. While it wouldn't be revoked, the Germans would still consider themselves racially superior to the Japanese, and this was evident in Turtledove's book, where the characters mention several times the perceived inferiority of Japan, it's culture, and its technology.

Yeah and there are probably many groups who earned Honorary Aryan status only for it to be revoked as the main races considered 'enemies' were wiped out or subjugated. For instance, OTL the Nazis were pretty favorable towards the Arabs, but canonically in ITPOME the Arab population was ultimately deemed 'Semitic as the Jews' and ended up being targeted for genocide/enslavement.

 

[MaxGerke01]

So we all know the infamous case of Japanese Americans being interned in the US during WW2. It is less well known but some German and Italian Americans were also interned https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Italian_Americans
ITTL however since the US stayed out of WW2 this didn't happen but what was the overall experience of Japanese, German and Italian Americans up to WW3? How did they fare in the years after the war ?

 

[Zoidberg12]

We must remember that in OTL Balbo was accidentally killed by friendly fire in 28 June 1940, the war had barely started and Italy was already messing everything up, whenever someone makes Balbo the next Duce in an Axis victory world, should that TL have some sort of POD to explain how Balbo is still alive? assuming that the war started normally, I myself don't really care about making any excuses for it.

Another interesting scenario is Corneliu Codreanu becoming the more extreme and charismatic Căpitanul/Conducător of Romania even though he died in 1938.

Eckener did have FDR dying in 1932 as the POD of this world, so its more than possible that Codreanu and Balbo could be alive after 1938 and 1940 respectively.

I could also see Codreanu becoming leader of Romania after the death of Ioan Antonescu. In this world it is possible that Iron Guard were not purged from Antonescu's government in 1941. I could also see the Arrow Cross Party taking over Hungary after the death of Miklos Horthy.

 

[Eckener]

Apparently they are shown as being separate on a map in a German elementary school classroom. Whether or not they were actually separate in reality is a different issue. It makes sense to have the Germans treat them as a single country both from the perspectives of administrative efficiency and punitive measure. Both countries lost the war and lost their independence. Canada lost the monarchy and the US(and probably Canada) is losing at least millions in tribute to Germany every year so what reason does Germany have to deal with the two as separate countries other than as a cynical nod to a political reality that no longer exists? The map could be a bit of propaganda...

I think that, with the original source material showing Canada separate from the US, that's probably the reality on the ground. Some sort of knock-off BUF (Canadian Union of Fascists maybe?) in charge of the "Federation of Canada," maybe? Taking the narrative that the monarchy was part of what was wrong with Canada? IDK. Open for suggestions there.

So we all know the infamous case of Japanese Americans being interned in the US during WW2. It is less well known but some German and Italian Americans were also interned https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Italian_Americans
ITTL however since the US stayed out of WW2 this didn't happen but what was the overall experience of Japanese, German and Italian Americans up to WW3? How did they fare in the years after the war?

The internment of Japanese, German, and Italian - Americans all took place after the US got involved in WW2, so post-1941. ITTL, that would never have happened, and WWIII doesn't last long enough for anything like that to occur.
I think you would see those communities facing suspicion from some in the US, while others would see them as a way to build ties with those countries and keep America at peace.
That said...the Germans and Italians would probably have an easier time of things just because they're "white," while the Japanese would still be subject to Americans' well established anti-Asian racism.

Eckener did have FDR dying in 1932 as the POD of this world, so its more than possible that Codreanu and Balbo could be alive after 1938 and 1940 respectively.

I could also see Codreanu becoming leader of Romania after the death of Ioan Antonescu. In this world it is possible that Iron Guard were not purged from Antonescu's government in 1941. I could also see the Arrow Cross Party taking over Hungary after the death of Miklos Horthy.

Exactly. The POD is 1932, so there is plenty of wiggle room with WWII itself. In the TL I wrote up, France falls earlier, and Dunkirk is a disaster. King George VI is killed in the Blitz at the end of September 1940. So that war is subtly different early on and becomes more different the longer it goes, so that by 1945 we see Moscow falling and the Russians in retreat, with the first atomic weapon used in the summer, with Hitler declaring victory in August.

Speaking of Russia....Turtledove is VERY vague about what happened to them and what their current status was as of 2010. There's some mention that they'd been "pushed back beyond the Urals," but that's about it. I briefly included a rump Russian government centered in Omsk surviving post-1945, but not much detail there. Thoughts?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Also, trying to map out where this sequel story will go. Here are some "big ideas" I've been pondering and would welcome some help fleshing them out before I get into writing the details:

- Heinrich & Lise: I'm going to have Heinrich transferred to the USA, to give us a better first-person POV to what happens. So, what DOES happen?

• The New Federalists are going to capture control of the Presidency. They are a "moderate" party ideologically. Not out and out fascist like the FJP, but not wanting to change things overnight back to true democracy (as opposed to the Liberty Party).
• The USA's new President is going to be outspoken about wanting to change America's status from "occupied" to "member of the Empire"
• This is going to rattle the Wehrmacht, which opposes a strong United States, whereas Buckliger is more open to discussing America's demands

- Alicia: She's going to make contact with the Jewish community in Switzerland, along with being the primary European POV

• Her meeting the Jewish community is still a little vague in my head...just a scene where she stumbles upon a Synagogue having Saturday services. I'm not sure exactly how this plays out, especially with regard to the security police. How heavily would they be trailing her?
• In Germany, there is the "grand reform bill" that is being debated.
  • 10 year term-limit on the position of the Fuhrer
  • Revives the Reichskanzler position separate from the Fuhrer, with a sort of "head of state/head of government" split between the two.
  • Opens up some level of greater speech and press expression
• Does the reform bill pass?
  • If so, what's the fallout?
  • If not, what's the fallout? I would imagine that would be more destabilizing, with people taking to the streets, so it seems less likely.
  • My gut says: the bill passes, but there are plenty of detractors. Once America starts causing issues after the 2020 election and the new non-fascist is in office in 2021, those detractors start to speak out.
• Following my gut... America takes one step too far in the eyes of Wehrmacht officials, and so the hardliners, working with the Army, force a coup to remove Buckliger and to clamp down on parts of the reform bill.
  • This causes a full-blown uprising in Germany, and at this point, the stronger constituent parts of the Empire rise up, ostensibly in support of Buckliger but really in support of their own independence.
  • The world comes to the brink of a fourth world war. Japan backs the reformists (helps take Germany down a peg or three in strength - though there are several in their own government that realize this could strengthen dissent within their own Empire). This forces the Wehrmacht coup leaders to the table.

So again, this is a rough sketch of where I am at currently, but very much open to changing things. Definitely wanting feedback here in order to tell a good story.

 

[traveller76]

Also, trying to map out where this sequel story will go. Here are some "big ideas" I've been pondering and would welcome some help fleshing them out before I get into writing the details:

- Heinrich & Lise: I'm going to have Heinrich transferred to the USA, to give us a better first-person POV to what happens. So, what DOES happen?

• The New Federalists are going to capture control of the Presidency. They are a "moderate" party ideologically. Not out and out fascist like the FJP, but not wanting to change things overnight back to true democracy (as opposed to the Liberty Party).
• The USA's new President is going to be outspoken about wanting to change America's status from "occupied" to "member of the Empire"
• This is going to rattle the Wehrmacht, which opposes a strong United States, whereas Buckliger is more open to discussing America's demands

I see the Wehrmacht staging parades and wargames in the US to remind them of who is boss. However, there may be younger officers and members of the government who look at the costs of garrisoning a 'friendly' state. The US tries to negotiate a withdrawal and neutrality agreement with Japan and the Reich.

- Alicia: She's going to make contact with the Jewish community in Switzerland, along with being the primary European POV

• Her meeting the Jewish community is still a little vague in my head...just a scene where she stumbles upon a Synagogue having Saturday services. I'm not sure exactly how this plays out, especially with regard to the security police. How heavily would they be trailing her?
• In Germany, there is the "grand reform bill" that is being debated.
  • 10 year term-limit on the position of the Fuhrer
  • Revives the Reichskanzler position separate from the Fuhrer, with a sort of "head of state/head of government" split between the two.
  • Opens up some level of greater speech and press expression
• Does the reform bill pass?
  • If so, what's the fallout?
  • If not, what's the fallout? I would imagine that would be more destabilizing, with people taking to the streets, so it seems less likely.
  • My gut says: the bill passes, but there are plenty of detractors. Once America starts causing issues after the 2020 election and the new non-fascist is in office in 2021, those detractors start to speak out.

Similar to INPME, both reforms and conservatives start to release classified materials to the newspapers and authorities about corruption and people working as 'agents of a foreign power'. Already there are rumbles in the security services and the military over whether to reform and to focus on Japan instead of 'whipped Americans'.

• Following my gut... America takes one step too far in the eyes of Wehrmacht officials, and so the hardliners, working with the Army, force a coup to remove Buckliger and to clamp down on parts of the reform bill.
  • This causes a full-blown uprising in Germany, and at this point, the stronger constituent parts of the Empire rise up, ostensibly in support of Buckliger but really in support of their own independence.
  • The world comes to the brink of a fourth world war. Japan backs the reformists (helps take Germany down a peg or three in strength - though there are several in their own government that realize this could strengthen dissent within their own Empire). This forces the Wehrmacht coup leaders to the table.

So again, this is a rough sketch of where I am at currently, but very much open to changing things. Definitely wanting feedback here in order to tell a good story.

The military attempts to stage a coup but plans are leaked by reform minded officers and soldiers. There are face offs and some minor fighting. Japan attempts to interfere but so files about official corruption begin to surface and similar reform demands and demonstrations occur.

 

[Eckener]

I see the Wehrmacht staging parades and wargames in the US to remind them of who is boss. However, there may be younger officers and members of the government who look at the costs of garrisoning a 'friendly' state. The US tries to negotiate a withdrawal and neutrality agreement with Japan and the Reich.

I think you will definitely see this tension, with "old guard" types, especially those that are old enough to have fought in America in the 1970s, will want to hold on with current levels and make such shows of force, possibly in direct contradictions to orders from Buckliger. Perhaps there was some sort of "VA Day" that is celebrated by the Reich in America, and Buckliger decides that is should no longer be commemorated, but some General near a major city insists. Stuff like that for drama.

And I could see some sort of position taken by the new American president after the election, though maybe not full withdrawal. I am thinking something more akin to current US military presence in Germany OTL. I *think* the US currently has around 40K troops in Germany. Obviously the Reich would have more troops in the US ITTL even under a major draw-down.

Similar to INPME, both reforms and conservatives start to release classified materials to the newspapers and authorities about corruption and people working as 'agents of a foreign power'. Already there are rumbles in the security services and the military over whether to reform and to focus on Japan instead of 'whipped Americans'.

I like this a lot. And I think you could see a debate between the Wehrmacht and the SS about the "greater threat" from Japan vs. an "aryan Brother" such as America, now that "America has been remade in the Reich's national socialist image," etc.

The military attempts to stage a coup but plans are leaked by reform-minded officers and soldiers. There are faceoffs and some minor fighting. Japan attempts to interfere but so files about official corruption begin to surface and similar reform demands and demonstrations occur.

Like this too. I think you'd see the coup attempted, but hamstrung because major portions of the armed forces refuse to support it. Maybe the Luftwaffe or the Kriegsmarine side with Buckliger over the Wehrmacht?
I don't think Japan would try to engage too directly. Some movement in North America to "support the legitimate government of the United States" if some of the units stationed there tried to strike at Omaha. Offers to "mediate" between the pro- and anti-reform forces. That sort of thing.