...Those Marvelous Tin Fish: The Great Torpedo Scandal Avoided

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Especially with the new click to expand feature.
“Another Splendid Mess You Got Us Into, Teddy!”

Ever Wonder How Teddy Roosevelt Kicked Off WW I?

Prologue:


As Europe entered its Post Napoleonic Peace due in large part to the Congress of Vienna, things started to turn increasingly ugly in the western hemisphere. The Empire that was Spain underwent a rapid and extremely brutal period of decolonization that makes the post-World War II Africa and East Asia Wars of National Liberation look reasonably mild and civilized. The South American and Central American “republics” like to portray these uprisings and revolutions as throwing off the yoke of foreign tyranny that came from Madrid with home rule. In reality, these uprisings were more or less revolts by the colonial aristocracies, prettied up with the façade of Jeffersonian democracy, borrowed mainly for the purpose as lying propaganda to fool the great masses of the oppressed peoples, to replace foreign tyrants with new domestic ones in reality. The local upper crust, not pure Spanish by blood, chased out and replaced the foreign Spanish with themselves as rulers. The peons, if anyone would bother to ask, as the Dominican and Jesuit friars did and recorded, would have answered: “New bosses (Jefes) are worse than the old bosses. At least with the old bosses, every one of us is despised because of our impure blood. Our new patrons think they smell like roses when they come from the same mongrels we do.”

In the midst of this warfare, fueled in parts by “idealism”, racism, prejudice and the recognition that whoever the banditos were, who took over the land from Spain, could keep all the loot for themselves instead of see it loaded up in ships and sent off to Madrid’s treasuries; a few colonies, mostly in the Caribbean Sea remained loyal. One of these colonies was Cuba.

Then There Is The United States Of America.

The post Napoleonic Period was one in which the Americans, who had been hammered hard in the Napoleonic Wars and escaped national disaster by the skins of their diplomatic teeth. The Treaty of Ghent (1814) was more another exercise by Great Britain to tidy up her business affairs while she was involved in the packing off of that Corsican upstart, an affair that was not yet completely concluded. It changed nothing much in North America, except burdened the Americans with a huge war debt and delayed Britain’s planned takeover of South American commerce by a couple of years. The War of 1812 was a mere bagatelle, a minor distraction on the road to taking over everything not nailed down outside Europe to Robert Jenkinson, 2nd Earl of Liverpool, the British prime minister of the day. This right bastard [Peterloo Massacre of 1819, I refer one to the Corn Laws and the repression of the Parliamentary reform movement, the relative lack of suffrage in Northern England. McP.] wanted to clear decks, so to speak. This was understood by the Americans at Ghent who cut the best deal they could with his government to get themselves out of the jam their own incompetence had dumped them when they foolishly declared war in the first place.


South America was rich and anyone in Washington and London, could see that whereas Spain was in ruins from the Peninsula Campaign and the Madrid government, allegedly pro-British, was quite weak and enfeebled and thus unable to assert its authority in country much less to colonies overseas. This exposed the Americas south of North America to exploitation and commercial conquest. Britain saw opportunity. America saw a breathing spell to recover from a ruinous war. South America was easier pickings than two wars on the North American continent showed to be to London.

Of course history has a way of making fools of men who perceive local temporary advantage and assume it is permanent. The British would find the new South American politics they encountered befuddling and the continent harder to pillage than their businessmen ever imagined. The Americans meanwhile increased in population and swarmed west and grew strong at a faster and much more alarming rate than predicted, so that by 1848, the admiralty in London told The Right Honourable Lord John Russell FRS, the prime minister of the day, that if war came with the Polk Administration, there were no guarantees. Canada could go. The Americans would be badly damaged, but the British Empire in the New World was at great hazard. Fortunately the Americans looked south.


Why Look South?

There was a great schism in the American social contract. You could see it in the American Congress, specifically the U.S. Senate. To proportional representation modern Europeans, the “federalism” of the American republic is a stumbling block to their comprehension of US history. They do not understand bicameralism or why “states” are issued 2 senators apiece as opposed to a unicameral parliament and representatives based on districts or chunks of population as the US House of Representatives is. The more astute European students of American history assume it was sectional politics, and racism: that somehow the slave owning classes in the southern states demanded it to prevent a national popular vote in some future Congress from outlawing their “peculiar institution”

That is not exactly what happened. Powerful states at the national founding, like Virginia and New York, which had large populations, wanted unicameralism and proportional representation. It was small states like Rhode Island and Delaware and South Carolina with small populations and who knew they would be swamped in the commercial competitive interests and backwash of the Virginias and New Yorks who insisted on the Senate. Later, Virginia and the southern United States would as a sectional block would play the Senate like a pipe organ to keep “balance of power” in the US Congress to block an increasingly anti-slavery and industrial, banking, mercantile northern United States from overwhelming them politically and economically and in sheer population. Slaves were the major issue, but who owned the wealth was a part of it, too. In 1848 the capital in human slaves was 9 billion US dollars. The US industrial plant and mercantile trade was worth just shy of 11 billion US dollars. Tipping point. The American south needed to redress that imbalance. Canada was obviously not the place to do it. There was Mexico however. As early as 1834, the Jackson Administration was already thinking ahead to when there would need to be new states and new Senators to keep the US Congress stable. The Republic of Texas was the result. It was supposed to be absorbed quickly and broken up into four or five states which would join the southern American voting block. Ten senators would redress the Senate balance of power nicely. Texas did not cooperate. All or nothing to join up with the United States, they said. This caused a 12 year delay while all the parties involved tried to figure out their Plan Bs. There was also Mexico, still smarting from the Texas Revolution of 1835 and which had not given up all hope of regaining their lost state. They said they would fight if the Americans annexed Texas. It was 1837 and the professional American army, a tough hard-bitten outfit, not filled with fools, told the Martin Van Buren Administration, that it could not be done, not without serious risk of a major defeat. The US NAVY was willing to try Mexico, but van Buren told everyone in it to go pound sand while he thought about it.

What was that conniving son of a _____ actually thinking? Plan C, which is Cuba. This time the USN, not filled with fools either, told MvB the naval facts of life, circa 1836; i.e. the United Kingdom would be very annoyed if the United States grabbed Spain’s colony. Jamaica was right next door and the British would assume it was next on the American’s menu. This promptly put both “projects” on hold for 12 years.

Succeeding US presidents keep a close eye on European events. They look for any reasonable opening, an opportunity to solve their Texas, US Senate and economic problems all at one full swoop at Mexico’s expense. They see 2 roadblocks, Britain and France. Spain does not enter the calculations, yet, because Cuba, has always been and is Plan C.

Politician and soon to be President James K. Polk sees things going south (Bad pun. McP.) in Europe, starting in 1847. The Austro-Hungarian empire is up to its ears in Hungarians and Italians. The French tie themselves up trying to save the Austrians and putting down their own 1848 types. The North German Confederation has a case of the 1848 revolutionitis, too The British seem busy stamping out brush fire wars in India and become alarmed as the Balkan Peninsula also catches the 1848 revolution fever. Russia is being naughty, too. She, Britain, is cosseted

Spain is in the middle of its Carlist War. It is not a good time to be a pan-pacifist in Europe as little problems keep Paris and London and anyone else who matters, busy. Nobody will look too hard at the Americans with all these troubles closer to their homes.

Time To RAM That Texas Annexation Bill Through Congress And Tell The British 54-40 Or Fight!

Boy, the professional US Army becomes upset. They do not want a Mexican War just yet. They actually hope for 185---never. They get one, anyway. Somehow, because they actually find a decrepit military super-genius in their ranks, named Winfield Scott, they manage to pull off an astounding victory from the stalemated war they predicted should be the expected result. That victory makes even the Duke of Wellington, the first soldier of the age, take notice:



Mexico-Screwed.png


The British promptly settle the Maine and Oregon Boundary questions though “The Pig War” is still in their future with the Americans. I think Winfield Scott may have a “small” influence there.


Anyway, it occurs to Washington, and Mister President James K. Polk, that having bitten off territories four times the size of France, having permanently ticked off Mexico and really annoyed Great Britain, too; that Plan C should be shelved for the time being and maybe the United States should just digest her conquests and make slave and free states on a one for one basis and solve that other problem in the US Senate. So hopes President James K. Polk, who once he fulfills (most of) his campaign promises, unusually for an American president, has the sense to get out of Dodge (Washington) while his reputation is sky high, just one horse ahead of the lynching posse that is out to get him for screwing everything in the country up with his "stupid" war.




What About Plan C?

Cuba has never left the interest of southern Americans looking for new “slave” states and more senators, nor has it escaped the notice of northern American business interests who see a great source of sugar and certain other crops that America needs for her burgeoning industries as raw materials. But how to get at Cuba after the dangerous Mexican American War which was a lot closer run thing than most people not in the know realize? Look at what almost happened to Zachary Taylor’s army in northern Mexico? It was a miracle that the Mexicans had not destroyed that army and handed the Americans a catastrophic defeat.

Their thoughts turned to a previous model of American expansion, the Louisiana Purchase, when a war plagued and cash strapped Napoleon, after Haiti threw the French out in 1804.^1, forced him to make the best deal he could with the Americans for Louisiana^2


^1 The History of Haiti, Revolution and Independence

^2 Louisiana Purchase - HISTORY

Spain would be a tougher nut to crack. It was 1854, six years after the Mexican American War. Another window of opportunity was open as Britain and France were snowed underneath Russians in the Crimean War.^3

^3 Crimean War - HISTORY

Now emboldened by their successful seizure of land from Mexico in 1848 and with the major European powers at each others’ throats, America’s leaders soon turn their attention to Spain’s “Ever Faithful Isle.” The US initial attempts to acquire the island reached its climax in 1854. In October of that year, three expansionists, all toadies and appointees of President Franklin Pierce, who serve as United States ambassadors in Europe (Pierre Soulé in Spain, John Mason in France, and James Buchanan in Britain) meet secretly in Ostend, Belgium, to plan the annexation of Cuba, under orders of Secretary of State William Marcy. The “Ostend Manifesto” that they draft states that the United States should purchase the island for no more than $120 million as an Action Grande Majeur (Major international act. McP.). The offer would be made as an assistance to a Spanish government in deep trouble financially and would be presented as the act of a friendly power. The insult the United States would receive when the Madrid government refuses, would be the war excuse the United States uses as justification in seizing it by force; if Spain refuses to sell.

The Isabelline government of Spain, to the Americans’ surprise was ready to sell! What scuttled the deal? Three things torpedoed America’s first chance at Cuba. First was the Spanish Revolution of 1854 which threw out the Spanish conservatives who were to be American bribed and installed the “progressives”

Second was this mess.



Needless to say, Franklin Pierce was nowhere near as subtle or as smart as Thomas Jefferson. He proved to be feckless, gutless and a chicaner, so when the news came out that he attempted to buy Cuba he backpedaled post haste. Apparently he could not keep his big mouth shut while his ambassadors schemed in Belgium.

The northern American newspapers soon ferreted out the Ostend Manifesto as a result of President Pierce not keeping his part of the Black Warrior Affair quiet and through their news articles it soon raised fierce domestic American opposition in the northern United States to allow a cabal of southern American sympathizers, all of them, ambassadors firmly connected with the southern American scheme to acquire Cuba as a slave state or maybe 3 (6 senators), to pursue the scheme to success.

The progressive biennium (Bienio progresista) (1854-1856).in Spain was the final coffin nail for the 1854 attempt to purchase Cuba.


========================================

Stay tuned "Next Time" for how the United States Civil War and a little thing called the SS Virginius Affair leads to the Spanish American War!


P.S. For those who wonder where this is going, well... after the USS Charleston (C-2) rams and sinks the protected cruiser SMS Kaiserin Augusta and drowns Rear Admiral Otto von Diederichs, it gets a little exciting... especially after 1900.
 

McPherson

Banned
Why exactly are you throwing so many oddballs into the mix anyway? As cool as some of them are, there's also a damned good reason a lot of them didn't enter service. Some had too many teething problems for the time that couldn't be worked out, some may have been better but had higher maintenance and logistics issues, like that large two engined fighter you saddled carriers with instead of wildcats.

Then other stuff wasn't ready in time and just didn't have a need.

1. You have a right to ask.
2. I choose to alter the history to see what happens.
3. I usually EXPLAIN why the hardware or operation was rejected or did not work and give the what-if that makes it work.
4. Examples of RTL aircraft that should have been too difficult to make work that actually were forced through.

1. The B-29.
2. The A-26
3. The P-38
4. The F4U

Examples of RTL tech that were actually too difficult, but were "forced through".

1. 2 channel MAD for the Japanese.
2. Helicopters for the Americans.
3. Tank manufacture for the Australians.
4. Sonobuoys.
5. FIDO
6. Acoustic mines
7. High frequency sonar based on Ammonium dihydrogen phosphate. (Mines, sonobuoys and submarine chasing torpedoes all are impossible without that US tech.)

Compared to that RTL list, the stuff I've altered here is CHILD's play. Even the Lockheed jet and the Japanese crash aircraft carrier build program is more doable than the B-29 and the atomic bomb.

Therefore I stand by and defend my choices.

McP.
 
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McPherson

Banned
NO ICE CREAM FOR YOU, GUYS!

As we join LCDR Oscar E Moosbreger, we find him standing on the strong-back of the USS Moondragon. It is 15 November 1942. Some changes have come to the submarine. After two months layover at Whyalla in drydock, the Australians of the BHP Steel and Shipbuilding Company are just finishing their “magic” according to the prescription set forth by the Allied Intelligence Projects Section, (AIPs) for this new project. The 10.2 cm gun is gone and in its place is a cigar shaped contraption, that looks like some kook's idea of a Emil Kulik salvage bell.

As one might remember when we left him last, LCDR Moosbreger fully expected to face a review board and a possible courts martial for his less than stellar stalk and dispatch of the already crippled HIJMS Kaga. During that badly bungled evolution, the forward torpedo room of the USS Moondragon had flooded and he almost lost the boat. At the time, nobody in the compartment had been able to determine the mechanical casualty that led to the unshipping of the balance seals of the outer doors. At least not until the USS Moondragon returned to Brisbane and LT(s.g.) Robert “Whitey” Whitman (notice how all of these guys earn sobriquets?) aboard the USS Holland had a look at the torpedo tubes. He happily announced:

Somebody replaced the ball gasket seats’ copper bushing facings with lead ones. That seems like Royal Navy practice brand work and will fail with our kind of stainless steel seals. It was probably the fault of the Brisbane boys dockside who repaired you last time after your Cebu screwup, Oscar . Not familiar with our stuff.

Of course LTCDR Moosbreger is clueless enough to ask "Whitey" about the inner door seals. “Whitey” tells him happily enough;

That was your crew’s fault. They pre-loaded the Mark 20s into the tubes one eighty turn upside down and the torpedo body cam studs scratched the seal collars when you idiots comealonged the fish into the tube. Of course the inner doors will fail when you do that thing. Don’t you people read the circulars Bu-Ord puts out?

It took two cases of whiskey and a future favor promised to get “Whitey” Whitman to write up that the inner door seals had failed due to “normal combat effects and operations use”. Problem solved and courts martial averted for all concerned and lessons learned. Also a serious dent in the officer’s mess fund. No ice cream next patrol!

So a proper patch job is rushed at Brisbane thanks to the USS Holland and Whitey Whitman and the USS Moondragon receives orders to proceed to Whyalla, Australia. No reason is given to Moosbreger, not even a hint, which in MacArthur’s army-run Carpender navy is about normal stupid operating procedure. This is an instant clue that the AIPS are at it again with their monkey business. Moosbreger really wants to return to the regular USN. The AIPS can get you killed.

This assumption, Moosbreger makes, would be the second mistake Moosbreger makes, for the Allied Intelligence Projects Section has nothing to do with this new fiasco in the baking. They are just the expediters for this new foul-up. It is not even their concept of operation. This zany idea comes from the very top, from the fertile deranged minds of Monsieurs Churchill and Roosevelt; who have it in their “visions” of war-making to pull an “Italian Job” on the Japanese.

===============================================

Now what that entails is someone figuring out how to make a small submarine, like the Japanese one the Americans recover at Pearl Harbor, which ONI thinks might have torpedoed USS Oklahoma. Very embarrassing and much classified that little bit of information is. The upshot of the current idea is that someone resurrects the blueprints for an underwater submersible built by a New York City whack-job, named Emil Kulik, that dates all the way back to 1930 and uses that underwater salvage manned teleo-operated contraption as the start point for two separate projects for the United States and Royal Navies.

Mini-subs-1.png


One is of course, fated to be used on the RKMS Tirpitz, is British and relies on scuttling charge laid mines. The other takes more of a Japanese approach. Put a couple of torpedoes on the thing, creep into a naval anchorage, let the fish swim and escape in the confusion.

More or less that is the idea.(^^^)

As Spruance says about the Doolittle Stunt:

Is this good warmaking?

The answer is kind of obvious.

=================================================

SWPOA-7-Dec-1942.png

Okay, now let us assemble for the recipe for a disaster.

How-to-bake-a-happy-birthday-cake.png


Mix well and give it all to the USS Moondragon's crew to serve up on 7 December 1942.

South-China-Sea-3.png


=================================================

So: the allied plan is to essentially Pearl Harbor the Imperial Japanese Navy at their moorings and demoralize them, something awful, with what is essentially a propaganda operation which will also boost Allied morale in a war that still looks kind of grim for the “good guys”.

Must the reader be content to miss the uproar that is caused when USS Moondragon shows up at Whyalla and takes over the drydock that is previously occupied by a Bathurst class corvette to be (MMAS Pirie (J189) soon to become famous in 1943 as THE ship in the RAN that invents "the sit-down strike" after her commanding officer, LTCDR Charles Ferry Mills, an unduly harsh disciplinarian and strict class segregationist, who shows disdain for reservist and call to the colors men, holds up men's pay and mail, forces dress blues on shore leave and finally demonstrates he has a yellow streak two kilometers wide as he panics and hides during a RIKKO attack on a small two ship convoy transiting Oro Bay. The coxwain had to fight the ship while 7 men died at their battle station portside Oerlikon fighting off the Japanese Zero that almost blew them up because MILLs turned broadside-too instead of bows-on to present minimum aspect to the strafer.

Yeah, that son of a bitch coward had to be relieved and beached. One wonders if the RAN reservies might have fed him to the sharks; if he had not been dismissed; for he bungled the mail, held up men's pay, screwed up the Pirie's refit, ignored the due complaints process which the rates dutifully followed after Oro Bay, and the other shenanigans he pulled during the Townsville layover?

One might miss out on the fun as the whole crew of the USS Moondragon from captain to torpedoman third goes to the "school of the boat" on the care and feeding of the weird torpedo shaped cargo on the USS Moondragon's strongback. The modifications made to strip out draggy bits so she can be sleek underwater; the enlarged saddle tanks and keel stands applied to her sides and bilges; should one bother with those items? How about the new sneeze box and snort fitted, the very latest thing from the guys at Electric Boat, shipped all the way from Newport News? Or how about the refuel at sea drills with the USS ARGONAUT serving as a tanker?

Did one forget the extensive refresher course that LT(s.g.) Howard Cushman (weapons) and his entire division must pass on torpedoes? LTCDR Moosbreger makes sure that every Mark 20 loaded aboard is stenciled:

LOAD INTO THE TUBE THIS SIDE FACING UP, YOU IDIOTS. ^

What a navy!

====================================================================

SHALL WE HIT THEM FROM THE EAST?

Truk-000.png


Yeah, this happened.

How it happened is a tale...
 
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That was your crew’s fault. They pre-loaded the Mark 20s into the tubes one eighty turn upside down and the torpedo body cam studs scratched the seal collars when you idiots comealonged the fish into the tube. Of course the inner doors will fail when you do that thing. Don’t you people read the circulars Bu-Ord puts out?
I thought only the surface-launched torpedoes had body cam studs?

Anyway,
Now what that entails is someone figuring out how to make a small submarine, like the Japanese one the Americans recover at Pearl Harbor, which ONI thinks might have torpedoed USS Oklahoma. Very embarrassing and much classified that little bit of information is. The upshot of the current idea is that someone resurrects the blueprints for an underwater submersible built by a New York City whack-job, named Emil Kulik, that dates all the way back to 1930 and uses that underwater salvage manned teleo-operated contraption as the start point for two separate projects for the United States and Royal Navies.
So basically these 4:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorised_Submersible_Canoe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XE-class_submarine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot_manned_torpedo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welman_submarine
(The 3rd based mostly on Italian designs)

Apparently the main success of the XE, or any of these for that matter, was not sinking ships but cutting Japanese submarine cables in the Pacific, where they did exceptionally well.
 

McPherson

Banned
Guys... You missed a little detail... (Wake Island.)
I thought only the surface-launched torpedoes had body cam studs?

Anyway,

So basically these 4:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorised_Submersible_Canoe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XE-class_submarine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot_manned_torpedo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welman_submarine
(The 3rd based mostly on Italian designs)

Apparently the main success of the XE, or any of these for that matter, was not sinking ships but cutting Japanese submarine cables in the Pacific, where they did exceptionally well.

Comments: (My opinion is not gospel, YMMV.).

1. US heavy weight torpedoes had cam studs that operated to restrict orientation and "spin" in the tubes during launch and also trip-outs and cut features which passage through the tube would trip levers and release same and cut wired tie downs to remove arming safeties and initiate motor startup of the fish. This is WHY someone skinny dived the tube between shots on submarines to make sure the tube was clear of obstructions and debris. Nothing is worse than a wedged hot-run in the tube! Happened to several US boats (Which is why misaligning the fish is a BIG deal and was idiot proofed as much as possible.)

2. British mini-subs are never examined for WHY they are "problematic" in the popular histories.

British-mini-subs-3.png


3. When building these contraptions, the British had rushed development. Some of the faults were obvious, such as with making the pilot of the motorized canoe the actual physical pendulum control to point the nose up so he could surface and see which way he went. That wore the poor diver out. It never occurred to anyone in WWII to build an electric tow sled that would haul the poor diver in a passive swim condition (Less drag, Rupert! And he is fresh delivered to the work site at ranges up to 20 kilometers with the tech of the day.) or provide that sled with a touch/feel binnacle with a corrected magnetic compass steer input control that the diver could use underwater to even know which direction he was headed? Aforesaid sled could even dump a bottom charge under the warship which the larger clumsier "pigs", "Chariots" and X-craft could not do.

IOW, the boffins who dreamed these first efforts at SDVs (^^^) up, did not do their human factors diligence since they really had no operational experience to guide them as to what was workable and what was not.
 
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Must the reader be content to miss the uproar that is caused when USS Moondragon shows up at Whyalla and takes over the drydock that is previously occupied by a Bathurst class corvette to be (MMAS Pirie (J189) soon to become famous in 1943 as THE ship in the RAN that invents "the sit-down strike" after her commanding officer, LTCDR Charles Ferry Mills, an unduly harsh disciplinarian and strict class segregationist, who shows disdain for reservist and call to the colors men, holds up men's pay and mail, forces dress blues on shore leave and finally demonstrates he has a yellow streak two kilometers wide as he panics and hides during a RIKKO attack on a small two ship convoy transiting Oro Bay. The coxwain had to fight the ship while 7 men died at their battle station portside Oerlikon fighting off the Japanese Zero that almost blew them up because MILLs turned broadside-too instead of bows-on to present minimum aspect to the strafer.

Yeah, that son of a bitch coward had to be relieved and beached. One wonders if the RAN reservies might have fed him to the sharks; if he had not been dismissed; for he bungled the mail, held up men's pay, screwed up the Pirie's refit, ignored the due complaints process which the rates dutifully followed after Oro Bay, and the other shenanigans he pulled during the Townsville layover?

During a strafing attack, wouldn't it be BETTER to turn broadside, as then the lines of impacts from the cannon/machine guns only pass across the ship, rather than DOWN THE LENGTH of the ship? Or were they in a convoy and rammed and sank someone? Or are there other aspects that I don't recall?

Belushi TD
 

McPherson

Banned
During a strafing attack, wouldn't it be BETTER to turn broadside, as then the lines of impacts from the cannon/machine guns only pass across the ship, rather than DOWN THE LENGTH of the ship? Or were they in a convoy and rammed and sank someone? Or are there other aspects that I don't recall?

Belushi TD

The way the guns were lain out on the Bathurst class, one has be broadside to bring all side barrels to bear to cover sky-arcs. Besides the Japanese plane carried bombs. Broadside is best chance for an over or short. The RAN ship Pirie's captain was both a coward and incompetent. He mishandled her and turned yellow at the same time.
 
Sooooo..... If one has to turn broadside to bring all the barrels to bear, and broadside is the best chance for an over or a short, why is the guy yellow? I'm not getting something here. The ship did what it needed to, correct?

Thanks
Belushi TD
 
The way the guns were lain out on the Bathurst class, one has be broadside to bring all side barrels to bear to cover sky-arcs. Besides the Japanese plane carried bombs. Broadside is best chance for an over or short. The RAN ship Pirie's captain was both a coward and incompetent. He mishandled her and turned yellow at the same time.

Conversely when facing a strafing attack and thinking its a torpedo attack the better tactic is to present as narrow a target as possible

This happened to the Japanese when facing low level Beau-fighter attacks at the Battle of Bismarck Sea - they turn towards or away from the RAAF Beaufighter attacks thinking they were TBs - allowing the cannon armed aircraft to shoot up the ships longitudinally causing a great deal of damage and leaving them very vulnerable to bomber attacks from the other aircraft involved


As for Mills - the Man was a Stain on the Honor of the RAN and was not fit to command a Gravy Boat

He didn't turn Yellow - he arrived that way
 

McPherson

Banned
Sooooo..... If one has to turn broadside to bring all the barrels to bear, and broadside is the best chance for an over or a short, why is the guy yellow? I'm not getting something here. The ship did what it needed to, correct?

Thanks
Belushi TD

What @Cryhavoc101 wrote.

Add this addenda.
a. As a general rule an air attack from out of the sun in WW II developed so quickly that one did not have a chance to visually identify (VID) the type ordnance or even the type plane until it was too late to do anything about it. What one could do, was see the attack profile and react to whether the plane dived, flew high overhead or came in low at mast-head height. The high flyers were level bombers. Start S turning to throw off aim. The low level attackers were skip bombers or torpedo planes. Turn bows on. The divers were dive bombers, so bring all guns to bear and pray. If one could not make a determination before the attackers' release point or push-over, then the S-turn was the best compromise as it threw the aim of all three attack profiles off.
b.

At least we have some evidence that CAPT Bode of the USS Chicago was somewhat insane to explain him. LTCDR Mills seems to have been a morally unfit human being as well as mentally incapable of handling and managing men in any capacity whatsoever.
 

McPherson

Banned
If this test works it indicates cross thread quoting is viable, which as a cited link covers the copyright for threadmarking on this forum admirably and would simplify copy paste for thread linking.
Especially with the new click to expand feature.
any interest in creating a story only thread? Tried reading it but got confused part way in
I may do that with a recapsulation posting in this thread with moderator permission after I retake Wake and blow up Mutsu.
 

McPherson

Banned
View attachment 536537
The Japanese are just too strong. First year of the war without Pearl Harbor, (^^^) that is what the Americans can and should do, holding PACFLT back for such emergencies as a fight in the Coral or Arifura Seas. Most important PACFLT objective is to get Australia into better shape than OTL for ORANGE/SWPOA. That means Solomon Islands buildup, before the IJN gets there and a railroad to DARWIN. Darwin the port was never useable as an offensive jumpoff because the land lines of communication (LLOC) could not sustain offense. It could barely sustain defense. Given a Central Australian Railroad. (CAR) it could make for a 2 axis line of attack into New Guinea and make the 4th Area Fleet untenable for the Japanese. The squeeze play for the Carolines Islands comes a full year earlier and then the Marianas Islands. The Philippine Islands and western Indonesia are written off early if the British lose Singapore as I expect they would. RIKKOs and SAGs make up for aircraft carrier deficiency in the first 18 months until the 2 ocean navy slides down the weighs. Turkey shoot happens as per OTL as scheduled.

View attachment 536542

Benefits? ANZACS/UNCLE gets into position faster with more advantageous use of land based airpower and marines if the US can avoid having to stage CARTWHEEL at all. Port Moresby and Kokoda trail is an easier fight if Darwin can sustain the logistics as well as Cooktown forward.

Be an interesting fight in the Arifura Sea if the IJN was stupid enough to try it.

Keep an eye on that.
 
It's too bad that USN has no real effective large submarines other the three later V subs that start after 1941, but could there be a possible way to improved their designs before they were built? I was thinking of making a alternate V subs ;) of Nautilus, Argonaut, Narwhal, and another three for the Atlantic in an asb story.:)
 

McPherson

Banned
It's too bad that USN has no real effective large submarines other the three later V subs that start after 1941, but could there be a possible way to improve their designs before they were built? I was thinking of making alternate V subs ;) of Nautilus, Argonaut, Narwhal, and another three for the Atlantic in an asb story.:)

Neselco would have to use 2 stroke modified MAN diesels in the 1930s to power such V boats and they would have to be better than either the German engines or the Neselco copies. Fairbanks Morse is the preferred type after 1935.

Plan on a 4,000 tonne submerged displacement hull. You will need 2 two-cycle diesel-electric generator set, each combined output of 9,000 HP or ~ 6,700 kilowatts. to drive twin screws on a modified hull. You will need 4 × 120-cell Exide ULS37 batteries to drive 2 × Westinghouse electric motors, 4500 hp (3356 kW) each or combined 9000 hp or 6700 kW through the two screws.

Expected performance? About 24 knots surfaced and 14 knots submerged max using this,

Meet the USS Argonaut now pacing the USS Moondragon as her refueling tanker.

1586311266829.png


McP.
 
Neselco would have to use 2 stroke modified MAN diesels in the 1930s to power such V boats and they would have to be better than either the German engines or the Neselco copies. Fairbanks Morse is the preferred type after 1935.

Plan on a 4,000 tonne submerged displacement hull. You will need 2 two-cycle diesel-electric generator set, each combined output of 9,000 HP or ~ 6,700 kilowatts. to drive twin screws on a modified hull. You will need 4 × 120-cell Exide ULS37 batteries to drive 2 × Westinghouse electric motors, 4500 hp (3356 kW) each or combined 9000 hp or 6700 kW through the two screws.

Expected performance? About 24 knots surfaced and 14 knots submerged max using this,

Meet the USS Argonaut now pacing the USS Moondragon as her refueling tanker.

View attachment 536981

McP.
Sounds like a waste of those big engines, though. Put those into a smaller submarine (or devote more of the submarine to engines and fuel instead of endurance) and the submarine would be fast enough to catch transports like ocean liners or those hypothetical high-speed transports you mentioned in another thread to counter submarines. It would also be able to cover more ground on patrols in general.
 
Do the USN torpedoes still have a loop back problem?
I remember the USS Growler was sunk in the Aleutians by it's own torpedo in 1942.
 

McPherson

Banned
Do the USN torpedoes still have a loop back problem?
I remember the USS Growler was sunk in the Aleutians by it's own torpedo in 1942.

Since in this ATL the length of the torpedo is still 625 cm (20 ft., 6 in.) and the PoDs for both the Mark XIV, XVIII and 20 are based on the length and mass restrictions of the 1930s torpedo tubes, I have yet to figure out how to put an anti-circular run device into that cramped tail control. The solution is to build it into a new airplane type 2-d auto-pilot control to replace the depth control and gyro directional steer control unit, but for now the autopilot with its limiters is still, for story purposes, hung up at Sperry.
 
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