The World of Turtledove's In the Presence of Mine Enemies

[MaxGerke01]

So assuming they survived the nuclear attacks what happened to these individuals -all born pre 1945?
Orval Faubus
Eldridge Cleaver
Barbara Jordan
Former President Joseph P Kennedy
Joseph Kennedy Jr
John F Kennedy
Robert Kennedy
Ted Kennedy
Lee Harvey Oswald
Jesse Owens
Daniel Ellsberg
J . Edgar Hoover
Thurgood Marshall
Rock Hudson
Robert McNamara
Lyndon Johnson
Huey P Newton
Ruth Bader Ginsburg
Richard Nixon
Malcolm X (Little)
Albert Gore Sr
Elizabeth Taylor
Gerald Ford
Abbie Hoffman
George Romney
Sammy Davis Jr
Ronald Reagan
George HW Bush
Angela Davis
Colin Powell
Jeane Kirkpatrick
Bob Hope
Phyllis Schlafly
Harvey Milk
Edwin Walker
William F Buckley Jr
Anita Bryant
Ward Connerly
Sandra Day O'Connor
Bob Dole
Eartha Kitt
Allen Ginsberg
Bruce Lee
Jimmy Carter
Alex Haley
Muhammad Ali(Cassius Clay)
Barry Goldwater
James Brown
Bernie Sanders
Jesse Jackson
Wladziu Liberace
Shirley Chisholm
Bob Dylan
Marlon Brando
H Ross Perot
Shirley Temple Black
Jackie Robinson
Joe Louis
Fred Rogers
John Glenn
Cesar Chavez
Stanley Kubrick
Kirk Douglas
Marilyn Monroe
Judy Garland
Lucille Ball
James Dean
Charlton Heston
Orson Welles
Tony Curtis
Sidney Poitier
Stan Lee
Curtis LeMay
Redd Foxx
Henry Kissinger
Gloria Steinem
Jane Fonda
Howard Hughes
Ted Turner
Walt Disney
Nelson Rockefeller
George Wallace
Fred Trump
George McGovern
John McCain
Walter Mondale
Harper Lee
James Baldwin
Truman Capote
Marian Anderson
Johnny Carson
Joe Jackson
Ed Sullivan
Rod Serling
Dan Rather
Isaac Asimov
Hugh Hefner
Andy Warhol
Ray Kroc
Harlan Sanders
Julia Child
Dick Clark
Norman Lear
Rosa Parks
James Meredith
Fannie Lou Hamer
Medgar Evers
Evan Mecham
Johnny Cash
Mel Blanc
Mel Brooks
Howard Cosell
Elizabeth Montgomery
Bette Davis
John Wayne
Harry S Truman
Dwight Eisenhower
Former President Herbert Hoover
Adlai Stevenson II
Spiro Agnew
Former Vice President John Nance Garner
Former President Al Smith
Thomas Dewey
Wendell Willkie
Henry A Wallace
Alben W Barkley
Pat Brown
Earl Warren
Arthur Goldberg
Margaret Chase Smith
Joe Biden
Dick Cheney
Donald Rumsfeld
Lloyd Bentsen
Michael S Dukakis
Geraldine Ferraro
Former First Lady Anne Morrow Lindbergh
Eleanor Roosevelt
Lena Horne
Paul Robeson
Josephine Baker
Desi Arnaz
Ricardo Montablan
Gene Roddenberry
Christopher Plummer
George Lucas
William J Blythe (Clinton)
Ralph Nader
Joe Lieberman
John Kerry
James Stockdale
John B Anderson
Patrick Lucey
Gary Hart
Betty Friedan
Sargent Shriver
Edmund Muskie
William E Miller
Henry Cabot Lodge Jr
Estes Kefauver
John Sparkman
Fielding L Wright
John W Bricker
Charles L McNary
Alf Landon
Frank Knox
Jeannette Rankin
Mildred Gillars
Rita Zucca
Iva Toguri D'Aquino
George Takei
Leonard Nimoy
Nichelle Nichols
William Shatner
DeForest Kelley
Walter Koenig
James Doohan
Ernest Hemingway
Arthur Miller
Philip Roth
Charles Schulz
J D Salinger
Theodore Seuss Geisel
Phil Donahue
Barbara Walters
Ted Koppel
Geraldo Rivera
Rita Moreno
Ann Dunham
Maxine Waters
Nancy Pelosi
Dianne Feinstein
John Lewis
Jim Jones
Jim Clyburn
Edward Brooke
Paul Tsongas
Sam Nunn
Jerry Lewis
Danny Thomas
Jerry Springer
Joseph Wapner
Judy Sheindlin
Ed Koch
Rudy Giuliani
David Dinkins
Michael Bloomberg
Mario Cuomo
Richard J Daley
Pete Wilson
Bull Connor
Joe Arpaio
Frank Sinatra
Elvis Presley
Walter Cronkite
Billy Graham'
Pat Robertson
Jerry Falwell
Jim Baker
Oral Roberts
Jimmy Swaggart
Kenneth Copeland
Pat Buchanan
Former President Charles A Lindbergh
Robert W Welch Jr
Charles Coughlin
William Dudley Pelley
Fritz Julius Kuhn
Matthias Koehl
John Patler
Frank Collin
William Luther Pierce
James Ellison
George Lincoln Rockwell
David Lane
Kurt Saxon'
Richard Butler
Wesley A Swift
Joseph Tommasi
Richard Snell
Robert E Miles
Louis Farrahkhan
Alan Berg
Lyndon LaRouche
Jack Kevorkian
Richard Lamm
Patricia Schroeder
Ruth Westheimer
Raymond Burr
Ray Bradbury
Robert Heinlein
William Masters
Lorraine Hansberry
W E B DuBois
Stokely Carmichael
Aretha Franklin
Joan Crawford
Katherine Hepburn
Lauren Bacall
Irving Berlin
Glenn Miller
Amelia Earhart
Carroll O'Connor
Ed Asner
Carol Burnett
Bea Arthur
Bob Barker
Betty White
Hank Aaron
Bing Crosby
James Stewart
Mickey Rooney
Dean Martin
Dinah Shore
Jack Swigert
The D C nuke would have got some of them but not all...

 

[Eckener]

I think the original Southern foundling fathers like Washington and Jefferson would be safe but Franklin and Hamilton could be in jeopardy from the new regime especialy if they could be replaced by the likes of James Buchanan and Roger B Taney who were much more pro Southern/Confederate and overtly white supremacist than the others, Also I think its very unlikely that the new regime is secure enough with its own ideology to leave Mt Rushmore alone. Lincoln would almost certainly be gone especially if he was replaced on the currency by Calhoun and considering what he stood for but Theodore Roosevelt who invited Booker T Washington to the White House among other things didnt present the right image either, Replacing them both with different but more ideologically compatible 19th and 20th century presidents would to the new regime be the easier option probably....

It's possible that the non-Southern Founding Fathers will be downplayed but I don't think erased. Keep in mind that this can't be some sort of "south rises again" regime if it really hopes to "win the hearts and minds" of Americans outside the South. Will the Confederate leaders be rehabilitated? Sure. Will some of America's Founding Fathers fall out of favor? Sure (but this happens OTL...as things are, we go through cycles with Jefferson and Hamilton).

Now, re: Mount Rushmore - I think the most likely scenario is that Lincoln and Roosevelt get blasted off. As for new faces added....might happen, might not. Keep in mind the Reich is going to squeeze the USA after the war and keep on squeezing. The funding for a remote monument in South Dakota might not be high on the priority list. Hell, you could even concievably make an argument for the Nazis, who had a liking for the native tribes in the US, having some sort of deal giving the land back to the Lakota and the whole monument getting used for target practice.

I see Southern cuisine like fried chicken and barbecue being sampled and copied by both Japan and Germany. There also may by American diners that take over from deli's.

Germany more than Japan, though I could see it making it to Japan as a curiosity.

So assuming they survived the nuclear attacks what happened to these individuals -all born pre 1945?
Orval Faubus
Eldridge Cleaver
Barbara Jordan
Former President Joseph Kennedy
Joseph Kennedy Jr
John F Kennedy
Robert Kennedy
Ted Kennedy
Lee Harvey Oswald
Jesse Owens
Daniel Ellsberg
J . Edgar Hoover
Thurgood Marshall
Rock Hudson
Robert McNamara
Lyndon Johnson
Huey P Newton
Ruth Bader Ginsburg
Richard Nixon
Malcolm X (Little)
Albert Gore Sr
Elizabeth Taylor
Gerald Ford
Abbie Hoffman
George Romney
Sammy Davis Jr
Ronald Reagan
George HW Bush
Angela Davis
Colin Powell
Jeane Kirkpatrick
Bob Hope
Phyllis Schlafly
Harvey Milk
Edwin Walker
William F Buckley Jr
Anita Bryant
Ward Connerly
Sandra Day O'Connor
Bob Dole
Eartha Kitt
Allen Ginsberg
Bruce Lee
Jimmy Carter
Alex Haley
Muhammad Ali(Cassius Clay)
Barry Goldwater
James Brown
Bernie Sanders
Jesse Jackson
Wladziu Liberace
Shirley Chisholm
Bob Dylan
Marlon Brando
H Ross Perot
Shirley Temple Black

The D C nuke would have got some of them but not all...

That's quite the list! I am going to attempt to tackle it, though not all at once. I'll do a few here in a bit and go from there 😊

 

[Eckener]

Well. Here's half the list. It's bedtime now. Haha!

1. Orval Faubus - Has a political career similar in the broad strokes to what his career was OTL, including becoming governor of Arkansas in 1955, and continuing to serve until the mid-1960s, starting under President Kennedy, then under Thurmond, and ending under Humphrey. Left the governor’s mansion in 1967 after declining to run in 1966. In 1968 (or 1970), he is elected as Senator. Dies in DC on July 4, 1971.
2. Eldridge Cleaver - His life flows similarly to OTL, growing up in Los Angeles, where he will eventually become a Black Panther. Due to differing events, he does not go abroad in exile as OTL. Will initially help lead guerilla style attacks on the Nazis and the new Thurmond government after 1971. He is captured in 1976 and sent to a concentration camp in Georgia where he dies in early 1977.
3. Barbara Jordan - Elected to the Texas Senate as per OTL. Will still be in that office when the United States is nuked on July 4, 1971. She works for weeks afterward with fellow Democrats to try to lead a resistance, but the Texan government ultimately sides with Strom Thurmond. Her family and many others attempt to flee to Mexico, but are caught by German soldiers before they can get far enough away from Austin. She ended up sent to the Talladega Camp in Alabama in late 1971. She died there in February 1972.
4. Former President Joseph Kennedy - Elected as the 34th President of the United States in 1948, following two terms of President Lindberg. Reelected in 1952, when there is starting to be signs of a rift between northern Democrats like Kennedy and Southern Democrats. Succeeded by Strom Thurmond in 1956. Retires to Hyannis Port, MA, though he is involved in his sons' political interests. Suffered a stroke in 1959, and passed away in 1964.
5. Joseph Kennedy Jr - Graduates Harvard Law School in May 1942. Will run for the House of Representatives in 1946, narrowly defeated. Helps his father’s campaign and will work for the Administration from 1949-1952. Elected to the House of Representatives in 1954. Will serve in the House for over a decade, then runs for and is elected senator in 1966. Was not in DC on July 4, 1971, but in Boston. Works with the state government in the early days after the bombing, and Massachusetts will be a holdout state for months, refusing to recognize Thurmond’s new government in South Carolina. Boston is occupied by November 10, 1971. Kennedy and his family initially evacuate to Hyannis Port and try to lay low. Joseph Kennedy, Jr. is arrested in March of 1972 (he’d initially been ignored because his father had been president). Kennedy will be sent to Colorado to a re-education and labor camp. He dies in 1974.
6. John F Kennedy - John Kennedy joined the Navy in 1943, and served for 6 years before resigning and joining his father’s administration from 1949 to 1957. Once his father left office, John ran for state office in Massachusetts, being elected to the State legislature in 1958, and then ran for state senate in 1966. John Kennedy was elected governor of Massachusetts in 1970. After the start of the short-lived WWIII in July of 1971, John did everything he could to have his state resist the Nazis and the new puppet government forming around Strom Thurmond. He refused to evacuate to Hyannis Port with his brother, and was captured when Boston fell on November 10, 1971. He was executed by the Nazis on December 1 of that year.
7. Robert Kennedy - Joined the Navy like his older brother had in 1944, but decided to make hit his career and remained in the service during his father’s presidency. By 1971, he was the captain of an aircraft carrier. He died sometime in late July, 1971.
8. Ted Kennedy - Ted was 16 years old when his father was elected President, and he would live in the White House from 1949 until 1950, then going to Harvard, where he would graduate Law School in 1956. Ted would work as a lawyer in Boston, but also became an outspoken Civil Rights activist in the late 1960s. He evacuated to Hyannis Port with the rest of the family in October of 1971. He would be arrested with his eldest brother Joseph in March of 1972, and would be sent to a re-educaton and labor camp in South Dakota, where he would serve twenty-five years, released in 1997. He was not allowed to move west of the Mississippi, so he wound up moving to central Kansas where he worked in ranching until his death in 2002.
9. Lee Harvey Oswald - Early life is similar to OTL. Joined the marines in 1957, and remained a marine until 1961. While in the corps, he studies German and becomes fascinated with the Reich. He defected in 1964 and lived in Hamburg. After the United States is defeated, Oswald is recruited in 1972 to help the SS in their round-ups of various undesirable groups. Oswald was stationed at Dry Gulch Camp in Georgia from 1973-1978, and then served at two different labor camps in Colorado until 1986. Becomes a liaison officer in DC between the SS and the US government. Retired in 2008. Dies of natural causes in 2013.
10. Jesse Owens - Post 1936 Olympic life was much the same as OTL, and by the 1960s Owens was involved with the US Olympic Committee (as per OTL as well). Due to his semi-star status, and the performance in berlin 35-years earlier, Owens was on several Nazi “lists.” He was in Ohio when the war occurred. He realized fairly quickly he would be targeted. The Black Panther’s hid Owens and his family for nearly two years, but he was discovered in a safe house in rural Indiana in 1974 and sent to Dry Gulch Camp in Georgia. Owens died there in mid-1975.
11. Daniel Ellsberg - Has a career that is as similar as possible to OTL. Is working as a contractor for the War Department in 1971 and is killed in the DC bomb.
12. J . Edgar Hoover - First and only director of the FBI. Died in the DC bomb in 1971.
13. Thurgood Marshall - Career is very similar to OTL. Appointed to the Supreme Court in early 1970 by President Humphrey. Was not in DC when the Bomb hit (had been home in Maryland visiting family for the July 4th holiday). He is captured in October 1971, and executed in early November.
14. Rock Hudson - Has a film career that is essentially the same as OTL. Survives the initial destruction of the war, and will reluctantly continue acting in the mid 1970s, until he is outed by a jealous rival actor and arrested and sent to a forced labor camp in Nevada. He dies in 1981 at the camp.
15. Robert McNamara - American businessman most known for his work at Ford Motor Company before WWIII. He is in California and survives the invasion. He reluctantly served as Secretary of Industry under Thurmond from 1973 until 1989, when Thurmond retired. McNamara died in retirement in 2000 at his home in California.
16. Lyndon Johnson - Popular Senator from Texas from 1949 until the bombing of DC in July 1971. Johnson was not in DC at the time, but he refused to be a part of the new Thurmond government. He attempted to slip into quiet retirement, but was arrested in early 1973. Johnson died in custody before he could be formally sentenced to labor reeducation.
17. Huey P Newton - Black Panther founder as per OTL. Helps lead underground attacks against the Nazis and the Thurmond government after the 1971 invasion. Captured and executed in late 1973.
18. Ruth Bader Ginsburg - Well known Jewish law professor in New York prior to World War III. She and her family were killed during the Siege of New York, sometime in 1972.
19. Richard Nixon - Early political career is essentially the same (Representative and later Senator from California in the 1950s). Elected as Governor of California in 1966. Still in office in 1971. Reluctantly supports the new Thurmond government. He was assassinated by guerillas in September of 1972.
20. Malcolm X (Little) - Malcolm Little has a more stable childhood than OTL, and will live a fairly quiet life in Michigan. In his late 40s and is a manager at a factory when the Invasion occurs. Is ultimately arrested and sent to the Talladega Camp in Alabama, where he dies in 1973.
21. Albert Gore Sr - Senator from Tennessee who died in the DC bomb in 1971. His son Al Jr. was in the Army and died during the invasion.
22. Elizabeth Taylor - Famous American actress who’s career more or less followed the same path OTL. She survived WWIII in California, but was arrested in 1972 by the SS and sent to the Talladega Camp in Alabama, where she died in 1977.
23. Gerald Ford - Member of the US House of Representatives. Killed in the DC Bomb.
24. Abbie Hoffman - Counter cultural activist. Arrested in early 1972, sentenced to harsh labor in South Dakota. Dies in the camp in 1974, likely executed by the guards.
25. George Romney - Similar career to OTL. Was appointed as Secretary of the Interior under President Humphrey in his second term, starting in 1969. Was home in Michigan during the attacks, and claimed to be the highest ranking surviving member of the administration, and this styled himself “Acting President.” He would work with surviving parts of the Army and Airforce that did not side with Thurmond, and would lead the resistance that did not fully surrender until 1973. Romney himself was captured in December of 1972, and was executed on December 15. His son Mitt was at university in Utah at the time of the invasion. He survived the war itself, but is rounded up in 1974 when the new regime, at the behest of the Nazis, went after the LDS Church. Mitt would die in the Dry Gulch Camp in Georgia in 1976.
26. Sammy Davis Jr - Similar career to OTL. Arrested after the war in 1972 and sent to Talladega Camp in Alabama. Died in January 1973.
27. Ronald Reagan - His early OTL acting career is basically the same as OTL, though he remains a Democrat. He is defeated by Nixon for governor of California in 1966, but is then elected to the Senate in 1968. He is home in California during the 1971 attacks. He is, however, outspoken against Governor Nixon, and will be arrested and sent to a reeducation camp in 1973. He dies in South Dakota in 1976.
    
    
28. George HW Bush - Early business and political career is essentially the same. Is a member of the House of Representatives during the 1971 invasion, but not in DC. Not a supporter of Thurmond, Bush initially attempts to quietly resign his seat and get out of politics and return to business, but Thurmond asks Bush to serve as Secretary of Industry and Energy (with the understood threat to his family should he decline). Bush will serve in the Thurmond administration from 1972 until 1984, when he retires. There is some discussion of him running for either Congress or Governor of Texas, but he declines, and stays in retirement. Bush passed away of natural causes in 2014. His son George W. was in the Air Force in 1971 and died during the war. His other son Jeb was in university during the War, and would eventually run for Congress in 1984, serving in the US House of Representatives until 1990, when he ran for and was elected as Governor of Texas, where he served from 1991 until 2003, at which time he successfully ran for Senate, where he serves currently as a reform member of the FJP.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Now, re: Mount Rushmore - I think the most likely scenario is that Lincoln and Roosevelt get blasted off. As for new faces added....might happen, might not. Keep in mind the Reich is going to squeeze the USA after the war and keep on squeezing. The funding for a remote monument in South Dakota might not be high on the priority list. Hell, you could even concievably make an argument for the Nazis, who had a liking for the native tribes in the US, having some sort of deal giving the land back to the Lakota and the whole monument getting used for target practice.






That's quite the list! I am going to attempt to tackle it, though not all at once. I'll do a few here in a bit and go from there 😊

I agree its not certain Lincoln and Roosevelt are replaced after removal but its a missed opportunity if not as its a chance to put Americans back to work and to literally set the new order in stone., George
BTW added Jackie Robinson, Joe Louis , Fred Rogers ,John Glenn, Cesar Chavez , Stanley Kubrick, Kirk Douglas, Marilyn Monroe ,Judy Garland , Lucille Ball , James Dean , Charlton Heston , Orson Welles ,Tony Curtis , Sidney Poitier , Stan Lee. Curtis LeMay , Redd Foxx ;Henry Kissinger, Gloria Steinem,Jane Fonda , Howard Hughes, Ted Turner, Walt Disney, Nelson Rockefeller, George Wallace, Fred Trump ,George McGovern, John McCain , Walter Mondale, Harper Lee, James Baldwin, Truman Capote, Marian Anderson , Johnny Carson, Joe Jackson, Ed Sullivan, Rod Serling, Dan Rather, Isaac Asimov, Hugh Hefner , Andy Warhol , Ray Kroc Harlan Sanders,Julia Child, Dick Clark and Norman Lear to the end of the list.

 

[New Cleo Genesis]

BTW added Jackie Robinson, Joe Louis , Fred Rogers ,John Glenn, Cesar Chavez , Stanley Kubrick, Kirk Douglas, Marilyn Monroe ,Judy Garland , Lucille Ball and James Dean to the end of list.

Well he certainly is dead fairly soon, being Jewish and all.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Well he certainly is dead fairly soon, being Jewish and all.

Kubrick and Douglas ? They both were so unless they went to ground or were able to leave the US thats sadly likely to be true sooner than later...

 

[Eckener]

I agree its not certain Lincoln and Roosevelt are replaced after removal but its a missed opportunity if not as its a chance to put Americans back to work and to literally set the new order in stone.
BTW added Jackie Robinson, Joe Louis , Fred Rogers ,John Glenn, Cesar Chavez , Stanley Kubrick, Kirk Douglas, Marilyn Monroe ,Judy Garland , Lucille Ball , James Dean , Charlton Heston , Orson Welles ,Tony Curtis , Sidney Poitier , Stan Lee. Curtis LeMay and Redd Foxx to the end of list.

Still weighing options re: Mount Rushmore. You make a good point.

I'll make sure to add these people to the list, and I'll get to them sometime this week.

Sadly, most will either die in the bombs or in the first few years after 1971, unless they end up working with the new regime.

Comments on the ones I already did?

 

[MaxGerke01]

I'll make sure to add these people to the list, and I'll get to them sometime this week.

Sadly, most will either die in the bombs or in the first few years after 1971, unless they end up working with the new regime.

Comments on the ones I already did?

Thanks. I have been trying to provide as many names as possible who would either directly work with the new regime for ideological or personal reasons or who the new regime would leave alone if they weren't given any overt reason to go after them.Since most of the people on the list are dead OTL this process is easier.
I also think its important to have at least at least a handful of the more prominent people who did not collaborate and survived through fight or flight or both. The Nazis and the new regime usually won but not always...

 

[Eckener]

Thanks. I have been trying to provide as many names as possible who would either directly work with the new regime for ideological or personal reasons or who the new regime would leave alone if they weren't given any overt reason to go after them.Since most of the people on the list are dead OTL this process is easier.
I also think its important to have at least at least a handful of the more prominent people who did not collaborate and survived through fight or flight or both. The Nazis and the new regime usually won but not always...

My general opinion is that political and academic types are going to be the first focus of the new regime and the Nazis' rath. With entertainers, it's going to be hit/miss. Some will agree to work with the new regime, others will refuse but change their tune when their families are threatened, and then others will refuse, which ends their career and could end up with time incarcerated, though not at extermination camps for the most part.

One issue about those that escape is...where do they go? Mexico? South America? There are very limited options.

 

[Eckener]

Here's some more:

• Angela Davis - Unknown ITTL. Her OTL academic and political career was heavily influenced by the counter-culture movments and the clash betwen communism and capitalism that did not play out in the 1960s ITTL. She would likely not have been as radicalized and not involved with any sort of communist movments. Maybe she still would have become an academic, but it’s hard to say for sure. She would obviously have ended up in a camp sometime in 1972.

• Colin Powell - Career would follow similar lines to OTL. Joins the army in 1958. Served as military advisor first to Canada from 1963-1964, then to Australia from 1965-68, before returning home and being stationed in Washington. Returned to Australia in January 1971 as part of ongoing operations against the Japanese. Killed in battle during the invasion of Australia in October of 1971.

• Jeane Kirkpatrick - Political activist, received her PhD from Columbia in 1968, and had volunteered during the Humphrey campaigns. Had moved to DC in 1971 to teach at Georgetown, and is killed in the DC bomb.

• Bob Hope - In the broadest of strokes, his career is essentially the same as OTL. When the war and invasion occurs, Hope is in California. He refuses to become a mouthpiece for the new regime and is fired from his TV contracts in mid 1972. He is arrested in October 1972 and sent to a reeducation camp in Nevada for 15 years hard labor. Upon his release in 1987, he returns to California where he lives a quiet life, until he dies in 1996.

• Phyllis Schlafly - outspoken conservative writer, she lays low during the initial invasion, but once Thurmond’s new government takes hold, she becomes a supporter. She is tapped by Thurmond to work for the Department of Education in 1975, where she worked to promote proper family values. She would continue in various similar roles during Thurmond’s administration, and initially stays on under his successor, President Maddox. In 1990, when Maddox provokes the Reich into action after refusing to pay the proper payments, Schlafly resigns from the administration. She will end up returning to her home state of Missouri, where she continued to be a conservative FJP writer and commentator. She is not a reformist, however, and went “into retirement” permanently in 2011. She passed away in 2014.

• Harvey Milk - Early life remains largely the same. Remains in New York and as a moderately successful researcher for various Wall Street firms. When the Invasion happens, he flees New York City before the start of the siege. Being Jewish, Milk attempts to go into hiding and try to get to Mexico in the chaos of early 1971. He makes it as far as Arkansas before he is arrested in late 1971 by local authorities that had aligned themselves with Thurmond, and were stopping anyone from out of town. He was ultimately turned over to the SS in December and sent to a concentration camp in upstate New York, where he died in February of 1973.

• Edwin Walker - Conservative Army officer, outspoken supporter of Thurmond while he was president from 1956-1965. Resigned his commission in 1966 after a very public spat with President Humphrey. Served as a Representative from Texas in the House from 1968 on. Was not in DC when the city is nuked, and very quickly works to support Thurmond’s new post-war government, and is named Chairman of the Joint Chiefs in May of 1972, and will continue to serve until 1990, when he resigns due to what he felt was President Maddox’s “radical” behavior. Died in 1992.

• William F Buckley Jr - Founder of the National Review. His overall life was very similar to OTL. He was conservative but not a segregationist, and so had opposed Thurmond for the 1956 presidential nomination. Was a constant critic of the Humphrey Administration. When the war came, Buckley survived the invasion. He was a man torn, as he did not like Thurmond and was appaled at the idea of promoting the new Nazi regime, but was told that he would have to comply or he and his family would face retribution. So, he continued to publish the National Review in compliance with the new regime until it was merged with other publications by the FJP in 1979, at which time he remained on the board of the new Standard Bearer magazine until he retired in 1990. He died in 1995 from heart failure.

• Anita Bryant - popular signer, her life also went similar to it’s OTL trajectory. She survives the invasion, and will fairly quickly jump on the Thurmond band-wagon, and is quite popular with the Federal Bureau of Communication, and when she retires from singing in 1980, she will take over talent management at the Bureau, which became the Department of Communication in 1984. She lays low during the Maddox affair, and will be tapped by President Theodore Duke to serve as Secretary of Communication, from 1990 until her retirement in 1998. She died in 2017 of natural causes.

• Ward Connerly - African American political activist in California, Connerly was more of a moderate prior to the invasion, but quickly starts working with the various black militia groups to try and smuggle people to Mexico. He makes the trek himself in the Spring of 1973, and escaped the United States. Died in 1999 of respiratory disease while in exile in southern Mexico.

• Sandra Day O'Connor - Sandra Rehnquist’s early life followed it’s OTL course, taking her to Standford, where she met her husband, William Rehnquist. They moved to DC in 1952 and would start their own firm in 1960. Mr. Rehnquist would be tapped to work for the Justice Department under President Thurmond in 1962, and continued working there until 1967, when he went back to practicing private law. Sandra and her husband died in the DC bombing.

• Bob Dole - A “Lindberg Republican,” first elected to the Kansas State House in 1948, and would serve there until 1954, when he ran for and was elected to State Senate. Was openly critical of Thurmond’s branch of the Republicans, which helped him in Kansas. He ran for US House in 1962 and won. Became a Senator in the 1970 elections, and died in DC

• Eartha Kitt - Popular African American singer/performer who’s career was similar to OTL. She joined the black resistance in the Fall of 1971, and would end up becoming a leader of one of the militias and evaded capture for nearly a decade. In 1980, after nearly beign caught by the SS, she is able to escape to South America, where she died of natural causes in Brazil in 1994.
• Allen Ginsberg - Poet, career is similar to OTL. He is in New York when the siege begins, and joins a local militia unit fighting the Nazis. Killed in late 1973.

 

[Eckener]

• Bruce Lee - Unknown ITTL. Died in Hong Kong as a child during the first decade of Japanese rule.
• Jimmy Carter - Unlike in OTL, he stays in the Navy, and has a moderately high rank in the submarine force when WWIII breaks out. He was stationed out of Hawaii and had been fighting the Japanese for some time when the Nazis nukes the United States in July of 1971. Commander of a nuclear-powered submarine, Carter refused to surrender when Thurmond made the call to do so. His sub, the USS Atlanta, had one remaining nuke, which Carter ordered used against Japanese forces that had landed at Darwin, Australia. Carter’s sub was ultimately hunted down and sunk by the Japanese in October 1971.

• Alex Haley - Served in the Coast Guard until 1955. Became a fairly well known journalist in African American circles (not as well known as OTL in the broader population). Joins a black militia group during WWIII, and is captured and killed by the Nazis in late 1972.
• Muhammad Ali(Cassius Clay) - Popular African American boxer Cassius Clay (know by most as Cass), won gold in boxing in the 1960 NYC Olympics and the 1964 Capetown Olympics. Had become a athletic correspondent for NBC in 1966 and covered the 1968 Sydney Olympics. While there, he met and fell in love with an Australian, and the two married in early 1969 in Australia, where Clay moved to. He died in the Sydney nuke on July 3, 1971.

• Barry Goldwater - A so-called “Lindberg Republican,” Goldwater entered politics in the mid-1940s, getting elected to the Phoenix City Council in 1946, becoming mayor in 1950. Ran for and was elected governor of Arizona in 1958. Was a reluctant supporter of Thurmond once he became President, but had not supported him in the 1956 primaries. Was elected as Senator from Arizona in 1968. Died in the DC bomb.

• James Brown - Career is very similar to OTL. Will end up attempting to flee the US during WWIII, but is captured and sent to Dry Gulch Camp in Georgia, where he will die in 1974.

• Bernie Sanders - Jewish political activist from New York. Unknown ITTL prior to the war. Was still in New York when WWIII broke out, and he was an organizer of a Jewish militia group that held out against the Nazis until 1975 in Queens. He’d become infamous as a rebel leader, and his execution on May 3, 1975 was a major victory for the Nazis and the Thurmond regime, marking the end of the New York Siege.

• Jesse Jackson - Relatively unknown MLB player. Was arrested during the 1972 purges and ended up at Talladega Camp in Alabama, where he died in 1974.

• Wladziu Liberace - His career basically follows the same events of OTL. Is in California during WWIII and survives. Initially tries to continue to perform, but is forced to stop in 1974 due to his “decadence.” Becomes a music coach and piano teacher for the entertainment industry in Los Angeles, employed by the Bureau of Communication starting in 1975. He is arrested in 1979 and sent to a reeducation camp in South Dakota for 15 years after being caught in a relationship with a minor male actor. He will be released in 1994 and settles in Wichita, Kansas, where he worked as a music teacher until his death in 1997.

• Shirley Chisholm - Career is similar to OTL. Is elected to the US House in 1966 (the first African American woman to do so), and dies in DC in 1971.

 

[MaxGerke01]

My general opinion is that political and academic tyhighl targtespes are going to be the first focus of the new regime and the Nazis' rath. With entertainers, it's going to be hit/miss. Some will agree to work with the new regime, others will refuse but change their tune when their families are threatened, and then others will refuse, which ends their career and could end up with time incarcerated, though not at extermination camps for the most part.

One issue about those that escape is...where do they go? Mexico? South America? There are very limited options.
you were

of course if you were a political or academic type who was also black or Jewish then you were highly targeted even if your main expression was entertainment. Such individuals would have a very hard time surviving but would attendantly be very motivated' As far as where they would go there would be some cases of hiding in plain sight which would be harder if you were well known but there some cases. Also hiding in isolated and less populated areas of the US and Canada including areas near the nuked cities would have worked for some ...

 

[MaxGerke01]

Who was the VP for Lindbergh, Kennedy, Thurmond's1957-1965 terms and Humphrey ? Suggestions- I would make it Burton K Wheeler for Lindbergh, Henry Wallace for Kennedy , George Murphy for Thurmond and Claiborne Pell for Humphrey.

 

[Eckener]

Who was the VP for Lindbergh, Kennedy, Thurmond's1957-1965 terms and Humphrey ? Suggestions- I would make it Burton K Wheeler for Lindbergh, Henry Wallace for Kennedy , George Murphy for Thurmond and Claiborne Pell for Humphrey.

I hadn't looked into that yet TBH. I'll take a look at your suggestions.

 

[MaxGerke01]

I hadn't looked into that yet TBH. I'll take a look at your suggestions.

Any chance we will have more names today ? More names added to original list btw. Im not trying to inundate you just keep thinking of new peope...

 

[Eckener]

Here they are!

• Bob Dylan - Early life is largely similar to OTL. When he gets into music performance in the early 1960s, he becomes a well known anti-fascist activist as well. Is in New York when WWIII breaks out, and joins a Jewish militia in the city and is part of the resistance. Is able to escape in late 1974, not long before the city falls in 1975. Dylan will be on the run for nearly a decade, at times helping resistance cells, at other times laying low. During this time he produces a well-known (and highly illegal) album known as “American Morning” that became popular with the resistance and the underground counter-culture in the US to this day. Dylan was captured in 1983 in Arizona (he’d been making an attempt to get to Mexico), and was tried for treason and then executed on April 9 of that year.

• Marlon Brando - Brando’s life and career followed along lines similar to OTL. He was in Los Angeles when the War started, and survived the invasion. He refused to back the new regime, and was arrested in late 1972 and sentenced to 10 years hard labor in South Dakota. Brando escapes in 1977 and joins up (briefly) with a resistance group. He was killed on a raid in Nebraska on July 2, 1977.

• H Ross Perot - Early life is largely the same. Served in the Navy from 1949 to 1957, where he entered civilian life and worked for IBM, where he excelled and became a major leader in the company by the late 1960s, getting into leadership in the company by 1970. He survives the war, and while not liking the Nazis, he does comply with the new regime. He became the head of IBM in 1977, after more “disloyal” company leadership was removed by Thurmond’s government, and IBM became a major partner with the Omaha-based government. Perot served as a technical advisor in the late 1980s to Thurmond, and continued that trend with Maddox and then Duke. Perot retired in 2002, and passed away in 2017.

• Shirley Temple (Black) - Her early film career is largely the same. She does have a slightly better run as a young adult and stars in several films in the early-to-mid 1950s alongside Judy Garland. She retires from film in 1956, and after a short sojourn, she begins the Shirley Temple Show in 1961, which continued uninterrupted all the way to 1971 and the outbreak of WWIII. Due to threats made to her family, Temple would restart the show in 1973, and continue until her death in 1979. Temple was not happy being a spokesperson for the new regime and she’d become a heavy alcoholic, and committed suicide on August 8, 1979.

• Jackie Robinson - Unknown ITTL - the specifics of Robinson becoming the man to break the color barrier in major league baseball OTL wouldn’t have existed, and the color barrier probably wouldn’t have been broken until at least the mid-1950s. Without America’s entry into WWII and the subsequent desegregation of the Armed Forces in the Korean War, the Civil Rights movement in the USA would have been slower to progress. Robinson would have, like most other African Americans, been caught up in the purges in 1972 onward and perished at one of the concentration camps.

• Joe Louis - Louis’s major career would be largely unchanged ITTL, including the 1936 and 1938 Schmelling fights. His later career and post-career life in the 1950s would also have been the same. Once WWIII began, Louis joined up with a black militia in his area, and died fighting the Nazis in 1972.

• Fred Rogers - Early life and career follows largely the same path. Becomes a Presbyterian Minister and involved with TV. Unlike OTL, he would not have contract work with CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corp), but instead would work with various American children’s programs throughout the 1950s and 60s. Will launch his own successful show, Mr. Rogers Street, in 1967, which was immensely popular with parents prior to the war. Rogers went off air after the start of WWIII. He survived the invasion, and was approached by the new regime in late 1972 about restarting the program, but refused. As a result, the Rogers family was forced to relocate to Montana (internal exile), and Fred was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor in Colorado. He was released in 1987, and rejoined his family in Billings, Montana, where he worked as a janitor at an elementary school until he retired in 1999. He died in 2001.

• John Glenn - Vaguely similar career to OTL. Works with the American Space Program (USSA - United States Space Agency) as well, and went into space several times during the mid-1960s. He retired from being an astronaut in 1965, and became an administrator at USSA. Survives the initial war, and USSA is disbanded by the Reich and the new regime. Glenn returns to Ohio for an unhappy and early retirement. He’s “flagged” by the NBSS as an “unreliable” and so kept out of most of the better jobs that he would have been qualified for. Ends up working as a PE teacher at a suburban Middle School outside of Columbus after pulling a lot of strings. Died in 1992 of liver failure.

• Cesar Chavez - His life and career largely follow OTL with no major variances worth noting. In 1971, after the invasion, Chavez was arrested by California authorities and turned over to the FBI and held for a year before being transferred in early 1973 to a hard labor camp for a 25-year sentence. He died in the camp in 1988.

• Stanley Kubrick - Career is mostly the same as OTL. During the chaos of the invasion, Kubrick, who was Jewish, escaped to Mexico and lived there for over a decade in exile. He attempted to go south in 1984, and was caught and repatriated back to the US, where he was sent to a concentration camp in Texas, where he died in 1985.

• Kirk Douglas - Career is largely the same as OTL, actually starting slightly earlier since he did not serve in the Navy ITTL. When the Invasion begins, Douglas and his family are captured and sent to a camp in upstate New York in 1972, and he died there in 1974.

• Marilyn Monroe - Did not commit suicide like in OTL. Still alive when the invasion hit in 1971, but prior to that many industry columnists had stated that she had passed her prime, and there had been several steamy scandals in the late 1960s. When the new regime was up and operating, they approached Ms. Monroe to become a spokesperson, and she agreed. She would star in several major films in the late 1970s and early 1980s. She retired in 1989, and passed away in 2000.

• Judy Garland - Broad details of her life are unaltered, and she dies of substance abuse prior to WWIII.

• Lucille Ball - Career is largely unaltered from OTL, including the I Love Lucy show. When the invasion happens, Ball survives and officially retires from entertainment. She was approached to start a new show for the regime, but is able to get out of it. She privately did not support Thurmond, but was never outspoken about this and largely faded into the background, passing away in 1986.

• James Dean - Does not die in an automobile accident in 1955, his career before that is largely unchanged. Continues acting, and was seen as “edgy” and boundary-pushing. Will continue acting for a while after the new regime comes to power in 1971, but is arrested in 1980 by the NBSS for “degenerate activities” and “anti-state sympathies” and sentenced to 15 years hard labor in Montana. Released in 1995, and he settles in North Dakota as a mechanic, where he dies in 1999.

• Charlton Heston - acting career is largely the same as OTL. Heston supported Civil Rights and President Humphrey (in OTL his shift to conservatism didn’t really happen until the mid-70s). Heston adamantly refuses to support the new regime after 1971 and is sentenced to hard labor in 1972 in South Dakota. He is released in 1992, and retired to Montana, where he died in 2000.

• Orson Welles - His early career largely follows OTL lines. He was an outspoken progressive and anti-fascist, and was considering entering politics and running in the 1972 elections. After WWIII, Wells is arrested in late 1972 and will be sentenced to hard labor. He died in a labor camp in Colorado in 1977.

• Tony Curtis - Has an acting career largely similar to OTL. Curtis attempted to flee to Mexico in the winter of 1971, but was captured in San Diego. He remained in police custody until early 1972, whereupon he was shipped to a concentration camp in New York where he died in January 1973.

• Sidney Poitier - Unknown ITTL. The circumstances that led him to acting I think would have altered enough from OTL that he would not have been anyone famous ITTL. He would be rounded up in the 1972-73 purges and died at a concentration camp.

• Stan Lee - career and life largely unchanged other than he does not serve in the Army. Lee, being Jewish, will be targeted after the war and is arrested in late 1972, and sent to a concentration camp in upstate New York, where he died in 1974. His comics are still considered a hot commodity in the underground and counter-culture realms, but are officially illegal.

• Curtis LeMay - Has an army and air force career roughly similar to OTL in so much as he served and gained his way into leadership. Without American involvement in WWII, LeMay would not be as distinguished as in OTL. He is a senior Air Force general when WWIII breaks out, but is killed in the DC bomb.

• Redd Foxx - has a vaguely similar entertainment career as OTL. When the invasion happens, Foxx joins a black militia, and is killed in February 1972.

 

[MaxGerke01]

These are all very interesting and I cant wait for more...

 

[MaxGerke01]

BTW some of the recent names seem to be apt candidates for leadership in the new regime and at Talladegha, Dry Branch and the other American horrors ...

 

[Eckener]

These are all very interesting and I cant wait for more...

BTW some of the recent names seem to be apt candidates for leadership in the new regime and at Talladegha, Dry Branch and the other American horrors ...

Glad you liked what's done.

MAN! I just saw your updated list....you added almost 200 names! Haha. I *may* not get to them all (and I've got some grad school stuff to tackle this week so it may be a bit before I get to any of them). But some of those names are great and it will be interesting to tackle them. 😊

 

[MaxGerke01]

Glad you liked what's done.

MAN! I just saw your updated list....you added almost 200 names! Haha. I *may* not get to them all (and I've got some grad school stuff to tackle this week so it may be a bit before I get to any of them). But some of those names are great and it will be interesting to tackle them. 😊

Thanks I hope you can do more whenever you get the chance; I have tried to pick names that will help flesh out events in the timeline and in lieu or in tandem with more chapters the work youare doing with these definitely does that and moves the thread forward.