HMS EAGLE in the Falklands

[flasheart]

Only if the US clearly warned Iraq against invading Kuwait.

Perhaps the author simply hasn't mentioned it or the impact on UK defence policy.

The Gulf War is still happening on schedule and will probably be dealt with in the next update. The impact on UK defence policy will of course be very different ITTL.

I don't ave anything to add to the discussion, but before it ends I'd just like to say ho much I've enjoyed this TL.
You've clearly put a lot of work into it and it's one of the best on the site. Thanks, flasheart.

Thanks. Glad you've enjoyed it so far.


Given that it's now basically illegal to go outside now I find myself with more time on my hands and thus I'll probably be looking to bring this TL to it's natural conclusion at some point soon.
Then of course probably give into the temptation of writing an epilogue or spin off's.

 

[JamesHunter]

Given that it's now basically illegal to go outside now I find myself with more time on my hands and thus I'll probably be looking to bring this TL to it's natural conclusion at some point soon.
Then of course probably give into the temptation of writing an epilogue or spin off's.

Its an ill wind that does nobody any good...Etc. Looking forward to your conclusion.

 

[USS_Ward]

Will the Red Arrows demonstration team be flying the BaE Hawks as IOTL or will they be flying the F18s? If its the F18s they could give the Blue Angels a run for their money.

 

[pjmidd]

Will the Red Arrows demonstration team be flying the BaE Hawks as IOTL or will they be flying the F18s? If its the F18s they could give the Blue Angels a run for their money.

Historically the Red Arrows tend to fly the RAF's advanced jet trainer (they flew the Gnat before the Hawk )

 

[Stephanus Meteu]

abort the monster that became the Eurofighter

Something more of a Franco-German project instead? Or just Rafale? Or the US wins more contracts?

 

[AlanJWhite]

Something more of a Franco-German project instead? Or just Rafale? Or the US wins more contracts?

Being British myself, I hadn't given it very much thought.

Having an adequate FGR in service with both RAF and RN 15 years before the still inadequate Typhoon
and without the outrageous cost that gutted the other services is quite enough benefit
without taking into account the need for the dog's breakfast of the F-35 A & B mix
(iTTL the savings would pay for the CatoBar version of the new carriers by itself
& getting them earlier too!)

As to other countries, here are my thoughts (FWIW). Without British involvement in any FEFA project,
France, being French and (more reasonably) because they think they need a carrier-based version, will have to go alone
- so still Rafale. And more power to their elbow.

Without Britain & France, Germany cannot go ahead. especially once the Wall falls and Unification begins.
They will delay selection and purchase until the 2000s.
They will probably select either a variant of the Strike Eagle (like Singapore)
or hopefully a Gripen with extra level upgrades (see OTL Turbo Gripen of 1997)
Austria will almost certainly follow Germany

Several more European minnows may take the Viggen or Gripen than OTL,
but US pressure will probably still force late block F-16s on some and the terribly expensive F-35A on others

 

[WILDGEESE]

Something more of a Franco-German project instead? Or just Rafale? Or the US wins more contracts?

Agreed.

Save the money on the Eurofighter Program (white collar welfare) and go straight to license building F-15K's & F-16K's.

 

[Paulo the Limey]

Agreed.

Save the money on the Eurofighter Program (white collar welfare) and go straight to license building F-15K's & F-16K's.

Thus destroying the remaining capability for the UK to develop fast jets, even in part.

 

[SsgtC]

Thus destroying the remaining capability for the UK to develop fast jets, even in part.

Honestly, like 90% of that was done when they made the decision to purchase the F-4K and F-111K. Modern fighter aircraft are just too damn expensive to develop for all but a few countries. And even then, export orders are almost always needed to get production numbers high enough to justify the cost of development.

 

[WILDGEESE]

Thus destroying the remaining capability for the UK to develop fast jets, even in part.

You might find the Gov'ts of the 1960's did a lot of that with their enforced aerospace company mergers

. . . . and the scrapping of certain projects such as TSR-2!

It's strange you state this despite Japan, S.Korea and Taiwan having good aircraft design facilities despite license producing a fair lot of their aircraft.

 

[AlanJWhite]

Agreed.

Save the money on the Eurofighter Program (white collar welfare) and go straight to license building F-15K's & F-16K's.

sorry can't agree to a F-15 / F-16 mix

the UK cannot afford any pure fighter, all must be more than capable of ground attack
AND
IF the UK is planning to have a carrier force, even if not for a few years, it MUST not buy any FGR design that is not carrier-capable

Hence a design based on the F-18 ... preferably tending towards the Superhornet

(or buying Rafale M I suppose)

 

[Pseudo]

Agreed.

Save the money on the Eurofighter Program (white collar welfare) and go straight to license building F-15K's & F-16K's.

The trouble with the F-15 is that that's where the UK gets stuck. The UK won't be any more exempt from the F-22 embargo than Japan and Australia were. It would mean that the only fifth-generation jet available to the UK would be the F-35 and the UK would be entirely dependent on US development for the foreseeable future because the UK's only other option would be to go wallet in hand to Dassault.

 

[SsgtC]

The trouble with the F-15 is that that's where the UK gets stuck. The UK won't be any more exempt from the F-22 embargo than Japan and Australia were. It would mean that the only fifth-generation jet available to the UK would be the F-35 and the UK would be entirely dependent on US development for the foreseeable future because the UK's only other option would be to go wallet in hand to Dassault.

That would only happen if the UK again refused to share the development costs of the Raptor. Enough has changed ITTL that they may be fully willing to pitch in on the development and thus be able to purchase the F-22

 

[AlanJWhite]

That would only happen if the UK again refused to share the development costs of the Raptor. Enough has changed ITTL that they may be fully willing to pitch in on the development and thus be able to purchase the F-22

Sorry to repeat.

If the UK has carriers (which is key to this thread) every FGR plane must be carrier-capable to allow for easy distant deployment
and must be capable of both land and sea attack as well as a reasonable fighter from the get-go.

If cooperating with the US
in the late 80's and 90s buy the Hornet or better a Super hornet if you can wait. If its a "+" model and (partially) UK built so much the better
in the 2000s join the F-35 but only for the Catobar model. A similar deal for production as for the Hornet.

If cooperating with Europe
Rafale M is your best choice.
In that case, concentrate UK design/development/production efforts on better weapons (which have wider use in Nato and better export potential)

Anything else is pandering to the same "Top Gun" mentality that got us into the Eurofighter mess in OTL

 

[Pseudo]

That would only happen if the UK again refused to share the development costs of the Raptor. Enough has changed ITTL that they may be fully willing to pitch in on the development and thus be able to purchase the F-22

No, it wouldn't. There was no opportunity for the UK or any other country to join the ATF programme and share the development costs of the F-22, just as there wasn't with the F-15 or most other domestic US combat aircraft developments. The reason that the UK wouldn't have been able to purchase the F-22 is that its export was banned by Congress in 1997. Which would have happened ITTL because if Israel and Japan couldn't change Congress' mind IOTL then adding the UK's voice isn't going to change it ITTL.

 

[Mike D]

Anything else is pandering to the same "Top Gun" mentality that got us into the Eurofighter mess in OTL

The Typhoon was meant to be an FGR from day one (one of the aircraft due to be replaced was the Jaguar). What got the project into problems was multiple nations wanting different things.

 

[AlanJWhite]

The Typhoon was meant to be an FGR from day one (one of the aircraft due to be replaced was the Jaguar). What got the project into problems was multiple nations wanting different things.

If intended to be a FGR, why .. years after introduction was it STILL G incapable with even basic weapons?

The whole spec was, is and now forever will be a fighter jocks wet dream,
but it's not a proper solution to even the British need for a genuine aid to the other services.

The so-called "different requirements" were simply their obvious need to fight a war on the ground versus overwhelming numbers
not win a dogfight to brag about in the mess.

You see the same bias in US service against cost-effective ground attack planes cf, stealth fighters
but the US can afford to humour the modern-day Brylcreem boys a lot more easily.
The UK can't

 

[Blue cat]

No, it wouldn't. There was no opportunity for the UK or any other country to join the ATF programme and share the development costs of the F-22, just as there wasn't with the F-15 or most other domestic US combat aircraft developments. The reason that the UK wouldn't have been able to purchase the F-22 is that its export was banned by Congress in 1997. Which would have happened ITTL because if Israel and Japan couldn't change Congress' mind IOTL then adding the UK's voice isn't going to change it ITTL.

Perhaps but IMHO the UK does have a fundamentally different defense relationship with the US than Israel and Japan do. If any nation was going to get approval to acquire the F22, IMHO the list would probably start with the UK and Canada which for different reasons would likely be tied for first place.

 

[WILDGEESE]

sorry can't agree to a F-15 / F-16 mix

the UK cannot afford any pure fighter, all must be more than capable of ground attack

You mean these . . . the F-15/E?

or these . . . the F-16?

The one below is from a Danish Airforce F-16. Part of the pan-European production effort that replaced the F-104, itself a ground attack aircraft.

 

[WILDGEESE]

The trouble with the F-15 is that that's where the UK gets stuck. The UK won't be any more exempt from the F-22 embargo than Japan and Australia were. It would mean that the only fifth-generation jet available to the UK would be the F-35 and the UK would be entirely dependent on US development for the foreseeable future because the UK's only other option would be to go wallet in hand to Dassault.

Considering the F-22 didn't fly until 1990, and didn't reach Sqn service until 2005 and we're talking about a post Falklands pod up to the 1990's would it actually matter especially as Being are still making improved versions.

Then if so willing, the UK goes wityh the F-35 . . . or develops this instead, the Tempest.