WI: Spanish Empire Uses Camels and Date Palms in Mexico and Texas

I had just Read that the US Army during the Early 1900s experimented with Camels to aid troops along the Mexican desert. Date Palms were also introduced into the United States around about this time. I was wondering if the Early Spanish Empire could have used these Arabian animals and crops to make there Mexican Holdings more productive, more accessible...
Image result for US army camel

1816px-Koppen-Geiger_Map_North_America_future.svg.png
Image result for middle eastern koppen

And allow them to easily access the Incredibly Region of California more easily. Which has almost the same potential as there own spain. Not to mention A LOT of gold...

Image result for california koppen
File:Koppen-Geiger Map ESP future.svg
 
Plus, Assuming that they introduce them correctly, how would this allow the Spanish Empire to grow?
Image result for spanish empire at its height


Personally, I was thinking a better usage of California, Baja California, that region.
 

Won't load for me for some reason, but could given an answer if you'd summarise anything useful for anything.
WHAT!? This is incredible! The army used them to travel a thousands of Kilometres, finding trade routes with mexico, Exploring California (which was effectively blockade from the East by the Rockies and Various deserts. I realised that Camels were great for trade, but not this great.

Apperantly the Mule lobby tried to kill the program out of fear. No wonder... Mules are nothing in comparison to camels. They challenge mules to a endurance competition and the Mules took 4 days to travel 100 Kilometers and Camels 2 day 1/2
 
It's worth noting that during the 1700s, the Brazillian gold rush saw the arrival of 400,000 Portuguese immigrants and 500,000 African slaves into the region. Fair enough California is more difficult to get to than Brazil, but even if California saw 1/10th of those arrivals in an analogous gold rush, then by 1800 they'd have a Hispanic population in the hundreds of thousands, more than enough to keep most of California away from the US.

Fair enough that we don't know camels would have caused a gold rush a hundred years earlier in Spanish Mexico, but it's an interesting thought. Could camels being widespread have created a stronger California?
Your Right on point! Thats was exactly what I was pondering! Also, California has literally the same climate as Spain, so they could effectively make a 'Spain away from Spain'. Some kind of Population base I guess...

I was wondering if other Arabian Crops could bring use to the isolated Deserts that make a buffer between modern day Latin America and Non-Latin america.

So yes, The idea is could we see a significant Spanish Presence in Modern Day California, New Mexico and Texas, not just a vague claim over the region.

So that This:
1280px-SpanishEmpire1790.svg.png

Could actually become a reality not just some vague claims...
 
It's worth noting that during the 1700s, the Brazillian gold rush saw the arrival of 400,000 Portuguese immigrants and 500,000 African slaves into the region. Fair enough California is more difficult to get to than Brazil, but even if California saw 1/10th of those arrivals in an analogous gold rush, then by 1800 they'd have a Hispanic population in the hundreds of thousands, more than enough to keep most of California away from the US.

Fair enough that we don't know camels would have caused a gold rush a hundred years earlier in Spanish Mexico, but it's an interesting thought. Could camels being widespread have created a stronger California?
Continuing on from this idea... Assuming that a stronger 'Spanish California' Emerges, I was thinking it could be a logical jumping point into the Pacific. Plus, California has perfect climate for growing Citrus Fruit...
The Spanish already know about this remedy for scurvy and *should* prove pivitol for resupplying.
 
California is still pretty remote from the rest of New Spain. I think it would see a lot of Chinese and Filipino settlement since its right on the Manila Galleon route. Overland settlements are likely too. Maybe a string of settlements at oases leading to San Diego, and then coastal settlements along the bays with the northernmost being around Eureka a bit north of Cape Mendocino. From San Francisco Bay and Monterrey they'd extend inland to the gold fields.

It's also not coming into extensive Spanish colonization as easy as it did for the US since European epidemics were rare before the 18th century so there's still a minimum of 250,000 Indians there and potentially over 600,000, the majority concentrated near the gold mines/routes to them in the Central Valley. Most would be exterminated during the conquest and by disease but it's still a significant labor force and a revolt risk. Especially if more Spanish here means Francis Drake's expedition leads to followups and the English or Dutch (they were everywhere and attacked places like Chile OTL, they'd be here too) start there own trading posts which invariably involves selling weapons to natives who hate Spain.

I'd be very curious if they'd get a camel nomad/"Indian Bedouin" culture in the Great Basin. Horses are nice but camels much hardier. Imagine the Paiutes, Utes, etc. as the Comanche on camelback, picking at the fringes of the Spanish Empire and causing a major headache. Horses will also spread earlier into California and the PNW which will be pretty big for societies there, as will disease, camels, and European goods. Especially if the English or other anti-Spanish power gets invested in the region.

We'd also see Spain find more gold and silver in New Mexico and Arizona, and possibly get into Colorado's vast resources. But the main source would remain the north of present day Mexico since its closer to the manpower reserves of New Spain and camels improve transit and exploitation.

If the Spanish Empire still collapses then it revolts and gains independence from Mexico rather quickly since it's almost certainly too remote from Mexico City for them to assert authority. I'm split on whether New Mexico, Tejas (the Tejanos, not the Anglos), or other provinces in the north could revolt. They were weak OTL which let Mexico suppress them, but they'd be stronger TTL with more settlement and camels, yet Mexico is stronger too and has better communication in the north with the camels.
Could water melon be used? or does that require superior irrigation?
You aren't growing much in California without irrigation and flood control.
 
Camels may make the future cowboys of the American wild west obsolete as horses get spooked by the smell of camels. Camels would greatly improved the logistics of colonizing north west America and would prove to be useful in repelling other colonists from the east. Native Americans with camels would alter North American history significantly.
 
So IOTL in 1850 there were just around 10,000 Californios in 1845 according to wikipedia. There were also around 3,000 residents of Los Angeles in the same time. I'm no expert but it seems to me that these numbers could be considerably higer due to California's sheer size. IOTL the first settlers arrive in California in 1774 from Mexico. Could that be pushed forward significantly earlier to maybe even the 17th century? A few hundred settlers arriving around 1670 would make a world of difference.

A gold rush may not even have to happen in this time. Here's a fairly quick series of events I could see happening:

Camels are introduced to Mexico around 1580 by Spain, either by Spanish merchants or the crown itself. They quickly find use for these products, particularly in connecting the northern provinces to Mexico City. Texas, California and New Mexico however see hardly any new settlement immediately.

In 1665, a group of 200 men takes camels and move into California, founding a military post in San Diego. Monterrey can be founded around 1690 as the capital of Alta California, and be settled by a few hundred families from Sonora in Mexico. They can rapidly be granted their own ranches to make a profitable business for themselves and expand California's economy. Over the early 1700s this leads to the slow movement of several thousand Mexicans and Spaniards into California. They establish their own society and customs, largely based around a ranching culture and their Spanish language. Spanish settlement further north is limited, but is does occur in the more fertile agricultural lands up there.

By 1750, Californios number around 20,000 people focused in southern California. However in 1770, these Californios discover gold in the region, causing a gold rush in California. These new arrivals number in the tens of thousands, and are extremely diverse in origin, coming mostly from Mexico, Spain, British North America and the Philippines. Between 1770 and 1775, approximately 90,000 people arrive in California for the gold. Their origins are:

Mexico, 36,000 40%
Spain, 27,000 30%
East Asia, 9,000 10%
BNA, 9,000 10%
Other, 9,000 10%

These new arrivals clash with the local natives, but disease and new technology means the tribes suffer significantly in this period as the Californios gain a monopoly over the golf there. As mentioned above around 40% of new arrivals would be European, while there would also be a significant minority of arrivals from East Asia and of course Mexicans of mixed ancestry. This would help create a multiracial California as found across Latin America.

This new revenue also allows for California to expand their borders, establishing San Francisco and San Hose further to the north as large towns, which would expand into towns of several thousand in their own right over the 1700s. The California Valley would also expand in terms of agriculture as many gold prospectors would settle down as farmers in time. It would be in the late 19th century that the California trail would be established which would herald the rapid influx of Americans into California.

California's growth would continue so that by 1820 there would be hundreds of thousands of people living there, and continued growth year on year. This would ensure that when Mexico would declare independence in 1825, California would quickly follow with their own declaration the following year. This independence would be cemented by the Mexican-Californian War (1827) which would finalise the borders between the two states. By this time California would be on a much better footing than Mexico, having a much smoother transition to independence. The first Californian government would also play a key role in modernising the state, largely in breaking down the Catholic Church's monopoly on land by bringing it into public hands and distributing it by lottery.

However in the 1820s democracy would not immediately be established, but there would be a strong democratic movement in California. Firstly there would be a larger middle class due to the gold rush and ranch owners, as well as a strong merchant class in San Francisco and Los Angeles, who primarily traded on camels with Mexico to the south, or even shipped goods to Asia. This middle class, alongside the Anglophone population who would have a tradition of democracy and republicanism, would result in the creation of Californian democracy in 1828. However this would come with a major caveat: a European monarch would be placed at the head of a constitutional monarchy in California to appease conservative factions in the new country. And so in 1929 the Kingdom of California would be established, with Prince Giuseppe of Savoy becoming the first monarch. IOTL he died aged 36 in 1802, ITTL he would be live and in 1829, aged 63 he would assume the title of King of California, with his name being changed to King Jose of Savoy.

The period of 1829 to 1840 would be a booming time for California. Democracy would be established with all landowning males being allowed to vote, while also the government would fund settlement of the land further north, and also encourage immigration from Europe. Land reform would allow for land to be distributed by lottery to Californian citizens from the Catholic Church, severely diminishing their power. Furthermore the 1820s would also see the arrival of 3,000 Spaniards expelled from Mexico who would bring with them wealth and education. The reforms of this period would also include universal education to all children under the age of 14, which would partially be seen as a method of integrating the arrival of non Spanish, particularity Americans, into society.

By 1840 however, it would also be apparent that Americans interest in gaining access to the Pacific would also contradict with Californian independence. However due to California's large population and economy they would also have a lot of negotating power. The Anglo-American-Californian agreement of 1846 with the Oregon Treaty granted the US all of the Oregon territory in exchange for what we today recognise as Nevada and Arizona. As these were largely deserts as compared to the fertile lands of Oregon and Washington, this was accepted by the US. Interestingly in Oregon there would be an indigenous Hispanic population similar to the Tejanos and the Californios of OTL. After 1846 many would move back to California, while others would remain in Oregon and became a minority there.

In response to the 'American threat' however, California would also declare themselves The Empire of California in 1851. In reality not much would change, although the borders of the USA and the Empire of California would soon look like this:

_20200325_113826.JPG


The period between 1850 and 1880 would see limited mechanisation and advancement. In general agriculture would lag behind Western Europe as ranching, especially in the south, would dominate and be the main focus of exports. In the north however, the more temperate climate would lead to more European style agriculture, enabled by the movement of Irish, German and American farmers into the region during the 1840s and 1850s. The Salinas Valley in this world would be founded by European immigrants and quickly become very productive.

As a general rule however, this period would see California fall behind the US and Western Europe. Similar to most of Latin America, their economy would be based around exports, of gold and agricultural produce mostly. However political stability would help make them relatively prosperous.

It would also be in the period of 1840 to 1880 that Californian culture would become cemented as distinct from Mexican culture. This would be helped in no small part by camels. Similar to northern Mexico, use of camel furs and other products would make them distinct from Iberia. Also Californios music would take on it's own distinctive flavour, and several dishes from East Asia, particularly surrounding rice, would enter Californian culture dating back from the gold rush. Architecture would develop, heavily influenced by Spanish colonial buildings, would thrive as California would come into it's own culturally in this period.

The period of 1880 to 1930 would also prove defining for California as it would develop into a modern state and avoid the trap of most of Latin America. The 1880s would see industry emerge, centred around San Francisco, San Jose and Sacramento. This industry would be 'light industry' however, similar to Argentina, with it mostly being concerned with the management of food for shipment to Western Europe and Asia to a lesser extent. Even so, combined with the opening of the Panama Canal, this would allow for millions of Europeans to arrive in California in this period. Primarily these would be Italians, Spaniards, Germans and Portuguese immigrants. However one of the largest groups would still be Americans arriving from the Eastern US. This population explosion would allow for California to reach a population of 6.8 million by 1900, of whom 35% would be immigrants. In San Francisco, Sacramento and San Jose, the majority of people would be immigrants.

Agriculture in this period would boom as irrigation would become much more intensive and widespread, allowing for crops to have enough water year round. Railways would connect California to the American cities of Portland and Seattle up north, which would be much larger than IOTL. Railways would be built across California too in this period as modernisation would occur. The period of 1880 to 1930 would also see major political reform. Women with property would be allowed to vote in 1881, but quickly unions and working class political parties would call for greater reform and transparency. In 1887 the Australian Ballot (or the secret ballot) system would be introduced which would allow for greater transparency in elections. Socialist parties would find great success in key urban areas, and so workers rights to sick leave and holidays would be expanded in this time. By 1890 the majority of people would have the right to vote.

Heavy industry would be slower to develop, but would come along sooner or later. Iron ore would mainly be mined in the Richmond Mine in northern California, and soon enough steel processing plants would be opened in Sacramento. Coal however would have to be mined in Nevada, which would fortunately have enormous reserves. The Black Mesa and Pinedale reserves would quickly be mined for coal, which would be sent by railway to power the industrial heartlands of California. However the coal mines would allow for many thousands of immigrants from Europe to enter Arizona, to help expand California's control over the territory. Miner's unions there, due to their importance to the country's energy supply, would also prove a pivotal role in expanding democracy to the workers.

Anyway by 1914 California would be growing rapidly, and at first the war would allow for a growing economy as Europe would require immense amounts of food and resources, and have the money to pay for it. Come 1918, California would also prove to be a key destination for those escaping postwar poverty in Europe, and over the 1920s would generally do well, although low agricultural prices would mean an economic depression and civil unrest in parts of the country. However a strong democratic tradition would also allow for California to do well over the 1930s as opposed to much of Latin America who would have fallen into chaos and authoritarianism. The Great Depression however, would hit California and would cause significant unrest, but democracy would remain in tact.

California would play a relatively minor role in the second world war, however by 1945 they would have recovered from the depression to once again become a major recipient of immigrants: this time from eastern europe largely, while Italy and Spain would continue to be large sources of immigration. The 1940s for California would mean repition of several trends seen in OTL USA. Mostly, suburbanisation would see wealth move from the city centre to the suburbs. A comprehensive welfare state would be created, combined with higher taxation and universal healthcare to create a social democracy. Immigration would generally be much lower in the 1950s as compared to the 1910s due to the prosperity of Europe, and as the suburbs would grow the Little Italys, Little Ukraines and Little Americas of California would fade away as intergration would speed up.

Also, the growth of air conditioning and newer agricultural methods would allow southern California, Nevada and Arizona to thrive. Pheonix and Tuscon would become notable cities, as would Las Vegas, Los Angeles and San Diego, which would all expand into cities of hundreds of thousands of people.

The period of 1960 to 2020 would see California continue to grow to outpace it's neighbours. By 1960, large scale immigration from Latin America would have picked up. Around 200,000 Cubans would arrive in California during the Cuban Exile of this period. Meanwhile economic migrants from Mexico would by 1960 be the largest group arriving in California.

By 1960 California's population would be 22.5 million, and they would be seeing strong growth. Birthrates would generally be high for the developed world, but they would highest in rural Nevada and Arizona, where families of 6, 7 or 8 children would be common in compliance with strict Catholic teachings. Interestingly Mennonite colonies in Nevada would also prove to be a large source of population growth as by the 1960s they would be doubling every 25 years, and have a population in tens of thousands.

The period of 1960 to 2020 would also be defined by the movement of millions of Latinos into California who would hugely shape the country. Strong growth would mean that by 1990 their population would be 38 million, and by 2020 they would reach 60 million people. With a GDP per capita of $50,000, their economy would have a GDP of $3.3 trillion, making them the world's 5th largest economy, ahead of the UK, France and all of India. With strong yearly growth of around 1.7% per year, they would be projected to reach 100 million people by 2050. Furthermore, Sacramento in this time would have 15 million people, with San Francisco, San Diego, San Jose and Los Angeles would all have between 3 million and 5 million people and be major cities in their own right. Sacramento would be the largest Spanish speaking city on Earth, and be California's capital. Due to most growth occurring in cities, a city such as Los Angeles, which would have 5 million people in 2020, is projected to grow to 9 million people by 2050. This growth would help ensure California's dominant position in Latin America and on the world stage.
 
Sorry, that really was overkill. I basically started and since I'm in lockdown it's not like there was much else to do lol. Feel free to ask questions or criticise my proposed ATL though!
 
Could water melon be used? or does that require superior irrigation?

I know it was present in 1680 New Mexico. After the Pueblo Revolt the victors wanted to purge all Spanish influence, like wheat, sheep, horses and notably watermelon. Most of the locals objected to going that far and watermelon and wheat stayed and leaders of the revolt were replaced.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
Speaking of Nuevo Mexico, camel caravans could allow easier travel along the Rio Grande to the Gulf of Mexico. Thus,an early establishment of Brownsville/Matamoros as a port.
They also allow easier traverse along the northern routes into the Great Basin and the Great Plains. The route between the Gila and Rio Grande rivers allows greater contact.

Note: Several Pre-1800 timelines exist on llamas surviving into this millennium and their effect on native civilizations.
 
Sorry, that really was overkill. I basically started and since I'm in lockdown it's not like there was much else to do lol. Feel free to ask questions or criticise my proposed ATL though!

Don't apologize, that was awesome! I'm always in the mood for a good independent California TL but I never saw camels as the means to do so lol.
 
So IOTL in 1850 there were just around 10,000 Californios in 1845 according to wikipedia. There were also around 3,000 residents of Los Angeles in the same time. I'm no expert but it seems to me that these numbers could be considerably higer due to California's sheer size. IOTL the first settlers arrive in California in 1774 from Mexico. Could that be pushed forward significantly earlier to maybe even the 17th century? A few hundred settlers arriving around 1670 would make a world of difference.

A gold rush may not even have to happen in this time. Here's a fairly quick series of events I could see happening:

Camels are introduced to Mexico around 1580 by Spain, either by Spanish merchants or the crown itself. They quickly find use for these products, particularly in connecting the northern provinces to Mexico City. Texas, California and New Mexico however see hardly any new settlement immediately.

In 1665, a group of 200 men takes camels and move into California, founding a military post in San Diego. Monterrey can be founded around 1690 as the capital of Alta California, and be settled by a few hundred families from Sonora in Mexico. They can rapidly be granted their own ranches to make a profitable business for themselves and expand California's economy. Over the early 1700s this leads to the slow movement of several thousand Mexicans and Spaniards into California. They establish their own society and customs, largely based around a ranching culture and their Spanish language. Spanish settlement further north is limited, but is does occur in the more fertile agricultural lands up there.

By 1750, Californios number around 20,000 people focused in southern California. However in 1770, these Californios discover gold in the region, causing a gold rush in California. These new arrivals number in the tens of thousands, and are extremely diverse in origin, coming mostly from Mexico, Spain, British North America and the Philippines. Between 1770 and 1775, approximately 90,000 people arrive in California for the gold. Their origins are:

Mexico, 36,000 40%
Spain, 27,000 30%
East Asia, 9,000 10%
BNA, 9,000 10%
Other, 9,000 10%

These new arrivals clash with the local natives, but disease and new technology means the tribes suffer significantly in this period as the Californios gain a monopoly over the golf there. As mentioned above around 40% of new arrivals would be European, while there would also be a significant minority of arrivals from East Asia and of course Mexicans of mixed ancestry. This would help create a multiracial California as found across Latin America.

This new revenue also allows for California to expand their borders, establishing San Francisco and San Hose further to the north as large towns, which would expand into towns of several thousand in their own right over the 1700s. The California Valley would also expand in terms of agriculture as many gold prospectors would settle down as farmers in time. It would be in the late 19th century that the California trail would be established which would herald the rapid influx of Americans into California.

California's growth would continue so that by 1820 there would be hundreds of thousands of people living there, and continued growth year on year. This would ensure that when Mexico would declare independence in 1825, California would quickly follow with their own declaration the following year. This independence would be cemented by the Mexican-Californian War (1827) which would finalise the borders between the two states. By this time California would be on a much better footing than Mexico, having a much smoother transition to independence. The first Californian government would also play a key role in modernising the state, largely in breaking down the Catholic Church's monopoly on land by bringing it into public hands and distributing it by lottery.

However in the 1820s democracy would not immediately be established, but there would be a strong democratic movement in California. Firstly there would be a larger middle class due to the gold rush and ranch owners, as well as a strong merchant class in San Francisco and Los Angeles, who primarily traded on camels with Mexico to the south, or even shipped goods to Asia. This middle class, alongside the Anglophone population who would have a tradition of democracy and republicanism, would result in the creation of Californian democracy in 1828. However this would come with a major caveat: a European monarch would be placed at the head of a constitutional monarchy in California to appease conservative factions in the new country. And so in 1929 the Kingdom of California would be established, with Prince Giuseppe of Savoy becoming the first monarch. IOTL he died aged 36 in 1802, ITTL he would be live and in 1829, aged 63 he would assume the title of King of California, with his name being changed to King Jose of Savoy.

The period of 1829 to 1840 would be a booming time for California. Democracy would be established with all landowning males being allowed to vote, while also the government would fund settlement of the land further north, and also encourage immigration from Europe. Land reform would allow for land to be distributed by lottery to Californian citizens from the Catholic Church, severely diminishing their power. Furthermore the 1820s would also see the arrival of 3,000 Spaniards expelled from Mexico who would bring with them wealth and education. The reforms of this period would also include universal education to all children under the age of 14, which would partially be seen as a method of integrating the arrival of non Spanish, particularity Americans, into society.

By 1840 however, it would also be apparent that Americans interest in gaining access to the Pacific would also contradict with Californian independence. However due to California's large population and economy they would also have a lot of negotating power. The Anglo-American-Californian agreement of 1846 with the Oregon Treaty granted the US all of the Oregon territory in exchange for what we today recognise as Nevada and Arizona. As these were largely deserts as compared to the fertile lands of Oregon and Washington, this was accepted by the US. Interestingly in Oregon there would be an indigenous Hispanic population similar to the Tejanos and the Californios of OTL. After 1846 many would move back to California, while others would remain in Oregon and became a minority there.

In response to the 'American threat' however, California would also declare themselves The Empire of California in 1851. In reality not much would change, although the borders of the USA and the Empire of California would soon look like this:

View attachment 533076

The period between 1850 and 1880 would see limited mechanisation and advancement. In general agriculture would lag behind Western Europe as ranching, especially in the south, would dominate and be the main focus of exports. In the north however, the more temperate climate would lead to more European style agriculture, enabled by the movement of Irish, German and American farmers into the region during the 1840s and 1850s. The Salinas Valley in this world would be founded by European immigrants and quickly become very productive.

As a general rule however, this period would see California fall behind the US and Western Europe. Similar to most of Latin America, their economy would be based around exports, of gold and agricultural produce mostly. However political stability would help make them relatively prosperous.

It would also be in the period of 1840 to 1880 that Californian culture would become cemented as distinct from Mexican culture. This would be helped in no small part by camels. Similar to northern Mexico, use of camel furs and other products would make them distinct from Iberia. Also Californios music would take on it's own distinctive flavour, and several dishes from East Asia, particularly surrounding rice, would enter Californian culture dating back from the gold rush. Architecture would develop, heavily influenced by Spanish colonial buildings, would thrive as California would come into it's own culturally in this period.

The period of 1880 to 1930 would also prove defining for California as it would develop into a modern state and avoid the trap of most of Latin America. The 1880s would see industry emerge, centred around San Francisco, San Jose and Sacramento. This industry would be 'light industry' however, similar to Argentina, with it mostly being concerned with the management of food for shipment to Western Europe and Asia to a lesser extent. Even so, combined with the opening of the Panama Canal, this would allow for millions of Europeans to arrive in California in this period. Primarily these would be Italians, Spaniards, Germans and Portuguese immigrants. However one of the largest groups would still be Americans arriving from the Eastern US. This population explosion would allow for California to reach a population of 6.8 million by 1900, of whom 35% would be immigrants. In San Francisco, Sacramento and San Jose, the majority of people would be immigrants.

Agriculture in this period would boom as irrigation would become much more intensive and widespread, allowing for crops to have enough water year round. Railways would connect California to the American cities of Portland and Seattle up north, which would be much larger than IOTL. Railways would be built across California too in this period as modernisation would occur. The period of 1880 to 1930 would also see major political reform. Women with property would be allowed to vote in 1881, but quickly unions and working class political parties would call for greater reform and transparency. In 1887 the Australian Ballot (or the secret ballot) system would be introduced which would allow for greater transparency in elections. Socialist parties would find great success in key urban areas, and so workers rights to sick leave and holidays would be expanded in this time. By 1890 the majority of people would have the right to vote.

Heavy industry would be slower to develop, but would come along sooner or later. Iron ore would mainly be mined in the Richmond Mine in northern California, and soon enough steel processing plants would be opened in Sacramento. Coal however would have to be mined in Nevada, which would fortunately have enormous reserves. The Black Mesa and Pinedale reserves would quickly be mined for coal, which would be sent by railway to power the industrial heartlands of California. However the coal mines would allow for many thousands of immigrants from Europe to enter Arizona, to help expand California's control over the territory. Miner's unions there, due to their importance to the country's energy supply, would also prove a pivotal role in expanding democracy to the workers.

Anyway by 1914 California would be growing rapidly, and at first the war would allow for a growing economy as Europe would require immense amounts of food and resources, and have the money to pay for it. Come 1918, California would also prove to be a key destination for those escaping postwar poverty in Europe, and over the 1920s would generally do well, although low agricultural prices would mean an economic depression and civil unrest in parts of the country. However a strong democratic tradition would also allow for California to do well over the 1930s as opposed to much of Latin America who would have fallen into chaos and authoritarianism. The Great Depression however, would hit California and would cause significant unrest, but democracy would remain in tact.

California would play a relatively minor role in the second world war, however by 1945 they would have recovered from the depression to once again become a major recipient of immigrants: this time from eastern europe largely, while Italy and Spain would continue to be large sources of immigration. The 1940s for California would mean repition of several trends seen in OTL USA. Mostly, suburbanisation would see wealth move from the city centre to the suburbs. A comprehensive welfare state would be created, combined with higher taxation and universal healthcare to create a social democracy. Immigration would generally be much lower in the 1950s as compared to the 1910s due to the prosperity of Europe, and as the suburbs would grow the Little Italys, Little Ukraines and Little Americas of California would fade away as intergration would speed up.

Also, the growth of air conditioning and newer agricultural methods would allow southern California, Nevada and Arizona to thrive. Pheonix and Tuscon would become notable cities, as would Las Vegas, Los Angeles and San Diego, which would all expand into cities of hundreds of thousands of people.

The period of 1960 to 2020 would see California continue to grow to outpace it's neighbours. By 1960, large scale immigration from Latin America would have picked up. Around 200,000 Cubans would arrive in California during the Cuban Exile of this period. Meanwhile economic migrants from Mexico would by 1960 be the largest group arriving in California.

By 1960 California's population would be 22.5 million, and they would be seeing strong growth. Birthrates would generally be high for the developed world, but they would highest in rural Nevada and Arizona, where families of 6, 7 or 8 children would be common in compliance with strict Catholic teachings. Interestingly Mennonite colonies in Nevada would also prove to be a large source of population growth as by the 1960s they would be doubling every 25 years, and have a population in tens of thousands.

The period of 1960 to 2020 would also be defined by the movement of millions of Latinos into California who would hugely shape the country. Strong growth would mean that by 1990 their population would be 38 million, and by 2020 they would reach 60 million people. With a GDP per capita of $50,000, their economy would have a GDP of $3.3 trillion, making them the world's 5th largest economy, ahead of the UK, France and all of India. With strong yearly growth of around 1.7% per year, they would be projected to reach 100 million people by 2050. Furthermore, Sacramento in this time would have 15 million people, with San Francisco, San Diego, San Jose and Los Angeles would all have between 3 million and 5 million people and be major cities in their own right. Sacramento would be the largest Spanish speaking city on Earth, and be California's capital. Due to most growth occurring in cities, a city such as Los Angeles, which would have 5 million people in 2020, is projected to grow to 9 million people by 2050. This growth would help ensure California's dominant position in Latin America and on the world stage.
Intresting. Highly informative and Very well thought out! lots of time to truly develop timelines Because of COVID! I like the idea of California becoming independent and Multicultural... However, do you think that The Spanish Empire could establish a greater hold over, say Texas and New Mexico? Plus, I was seeing California more prominent in the Pacific Stage... But appart form that... Absolutely brilliant!
 
Speaking of Nuevo Mexico, camel caravans could allow easier travel along the Rio Grande to the Gulf of Mexico. Thus,an early establishment of Brownsville/Matamoros as a port.
They also allow easier traverse along the northern routes into the Great Basin and the Great Plains. The route between the Gila and Rio Grande rivers allows greater contact.

Note: Several Pre-1800 timelines exist on llamas surviving into this millennium and their effect on native civilizations.
Yes, that is what I was thinking... Do you think the Spanish could establish themselves better in Texas region? They would most definitely have the jump on other European powers, Namely U.K and France.

Whole Thread:
How far do you think that the Spanish Could effectively spread to? Could Totally seem them easily holding California, Arazona, New Mexico, Texas and Perhaps all the Pacific states... Camels are really the pivotal tool for crossing the Barrier between modern Mexico and the US.
With Dates, we could also see Farming in previously Ranchers regions...
 
I know it was present in 1680 New Mexico. After the Pueblo Revolt the victors wanted to purge all Spanish influence, like wheat, sheep, horses and notably watermelon. Most of the locals objected to going that far and watermelon and wheat stayed and leaders of the revolt were replaced.
Fair... Do you think camels could have prevented Such revolts on the fridges of the Empire? :)
 
California is still pretty remote from the rest of New Spain. I think it would see a lot of Chinese and Filipino settlement since its right on the Manila Galleon route. Overland settlements are likely too. Maybe a string of settlements at oases leading to San Diego, and then coastal settlements along the bays with the northernmost being around Eureka a bit north of Cape Mendocino. From San Francisco Bay and Monterrey they'd extend inland to the gold fields.

It's also not coming into extensive Spanish colonization as easy as it did for the US since European epidemics were rare before the 18th century so there's still a minimum of 250,000 Indians there and potentially over 600,000, the majority concentrated near the gold mines/routes to them in the Central Valley. Most would be exterminated during the conquest and by disease but it's still a significant labor force and a revolt risk. Especially if more Spanish here means Francis Drake's expedition leads to followups and the English or Dutch (they were everywhere and attacked places like Chile OTL, they'd be here too) start there own trading posts which invariably involves selling weapons to natives who hate Spain.

I'd be very curious if they'd get a camel nomad/"Indian Bedouin" culture in the Great Basin. Horses are nice but camels much hardier. Imagine the Paiutes, Utes, etc. as the Comanche on camelback, picking at the fringes of the Spanish Empire and causing a major headache. Horses will also spread earlier into California and the PNW which will be pretty big for societies there, as will disease, camels, and European goods. Especially if the English or other anti-Spanish power gets invested in the region.

We'd also see Spain find more gold and silver in New Mexico and Arizona, and possibly get into Colorado's vast resources. But the main source would remain the north of present day Mexico since its closer to the manpower reserves of New Spain and camels improve transit and exploitation.

If the Spanish Empire still collapses then it revolts and gains independence from Mexico rather quickly since it's almost certainly too remote from Mexico City for them to assert authority. I'm split on whether New Mexico, Tejas (the Tejanos, not the Anglos), or other provinces in the north could revolt. They were weak OTL which let Mexico suppress them, but they'd be stronger TTL with more settlement and camels, yet Mexico is stronger too and has better communication in the north with the camels.

You aren't growing much in California without irrigation and flood control.
Hey... This Ties in with the Stronger Mexico TL
thread https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/strong-mexico-tls.484621/
On the topic of California, With better communication and travelling, A Spanish Gold rush could bring tonnes of people there
 
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