Habsburg England

[Bob_Jenko]

Recently, I read a thread titled "Two Deaths at Bosworth" where it was discussing a timeline where both Richard III and Henry Tudor died at Bosworth. While the idea that forms the basis of my query was mentioned, it was never truly discussed: would it have been possible for Maximilian Habsburg (later Holy Roman Emperor) to become King of England if both Richard and Tudor died?

The thought that I had in my head is that one of the leading Ricardians (perhaps Thomas Howard, Earl of Surrey), instead of being captured escapes the battle and high tails it up to Sheriff Hutton, where Elizabeth of York and Edward, Earl of Warwick were in the care of John de la Pole, Earl of Lincoln. From there, they would flee to Burgundy and be entered into the court of Margaret of York, dowager Duchess of Burgundy.

From there, she connects them to her stepson-in-law Maximilian and a plan is made to install Maximilian as King due to his Lancastrian blood (from I believe Elizabeth of Lancaster) and be co-regnant with Elizabeth of York. So they would rule as King Maximilian I and Queen Elizabeth I, with the often xenophobic English people accepting that Maximilian will be away from England often so Elizabeth would be the 'true' ruler, of course with the help of leading Nobles as she is a woman.

Is any of this at all plausible? And I do understand I've left some gaps in what would've happened, notably to the armies at Bosworth

Two Deaths at Bosworth

So, I've seen this talked about a lot, but I'm not sure there's ever been a consensus reached, so I'm going to try and achieve one. In the event that both Richard III and Henry Tudor die at the Battle of Bosworth, who do you think would become the next King? Your choices are: 1. Edward, Earl...

www.alternatehistory.com

 

[TimTurner]

well if this does pan out, and Habsburgs also get Spain, France could certainly be spooked...

 

[Tyler96]

Why are they fleeing to Burgundy? Who are they fleeing from? What makes Max an attractive candidate, rather than someone domestic?

For this to happen I think you'd need someone irreconcilably hostile to Elizabeth to take the throne, and concoct a situation wherein her best option is to hightail it to Burgundy rather than just trying to stir up a domestic rebellion. I'm not sure such a scenario is likely in the aftermath of a mutual kill at Bosworth.

 

[Bob_Jenko]

Why are they fleeing to Burgundy? Who are they fleeing from? What makes Max an attractive candidate, rather than someone domestic?

For this to happen I think you'd need someone irreconcilably hostile to Elizabeth to take the throne, and concoct a situation wherein her best option is to hightail it to Burgundy rather than just trying to stir up a domestic rebellion. I'm not sure such a scenario is likely in the aftermath of a mutual kill at Bosworth.

Yeah, you make a very good point, which is why I was wondering if it was even plausible.

I think it'd have to be something along the lines of Tudor's army still come out on top at Bosworth, so men such as Surrey and Lincoln feel the need to get the hell out of dodge, and take Elizabeth (the best bargaining chip England has to offer, as shown by the Tudor-Woodville 'plot') with them to stop any of the Tudor army's commanders getting their hands on her.

The reasoning I've four Max is that he a) has Lancastrian blood (so may win over some stalwarts) that is better than Tudor's claim, b) is the heir to the HRE so has prestige and wealth (Idk much about HRE finances tbh) and c) is an adult male who is unmarried and has proven he can have kids (the people of England did not want another Regency council for a minor).

Though, out of interest, which adult males that the Tudor army like are free to marry Elizabeth at this point? I think Jasper Tudor was, which could be seen as an alternative for them and may result in a full on battle for Elizabeth of York's marriage.

 

[TimTurner]

Say that this does happen, does France do? Could the Habsburgs get Spain and England at the same time?

 

[Bob_Jenko]

Say that this does happen, does France do? Could the Habsburgs get Spain and England at the same time?

The question of France is an interesting one. If we're talking about (which is how I read your comment) post-being crowned, then they would certainly be getting very nervous. They would definitely do everything they could to ensure that Max isn't able to marry his son to Joanna of Castille, though exactly what with the full weight of the HRE and England against them, is difficult to know. They could potentially say "We'll let you do what you want there, as long as you don't meddle with us in Brittany/Italy."

Maybe the French would push (though they'd probably have no right to) to ensure that while Maximilian was King of England, England would remain independent and would go to his kids with Elizabeth who would hold no obligation towards the HRE. This is a notion I can see some English Nobles getting behind, in fact.

 

[Tyler96]

Yeah, you make a very good point, which is why I was wondering if it was even plausible.

I think it'd have to be something along the lines of Tudor's army still come out on top at Bosworth, so men such as Surrey and Lincoln feel the need to get the hell out of dodge, and take Elizabeth (the best bargaining chip England has to offer, as shown by the Tudor-Woodville 'plot') with them to stop any of the Tudor army's commanders getting their hands on her.

The reasoning I've four Max is that he a) has Lancastrian blood (so may win over some stalwarts) that is better than Tudor's claim, b) is the heir to the HRE so has prestige and wealth (Idk much about HRE finances tbh) and c) is an adult male who is unmarried and has proven he can have kids (the people of England did not want another Regency council for a minor).

Though, out of interest, which adult males that the Tudor army like are free to marry Elizabeth at this point? I think Jasper Tudor was, which could be seen as an alternative for them and may result in a full on battle for Elizabeth of York's marriage.

I guess I struggle to see a Tudor army, minus its claimant, acting in a decisive enough manner that Surrey/Lincoln have to flee the country, rather than just putting together some coalition of their own. Especially given that much of Tudor's force were mercenaries, and probably inclined to go home or go looting if it looks like they're not gonna be paid.

As for adult males free to marry Elizabeth that the Tudor army likes... IDK. There was a prolonged debate about the plausibility of Tudor's bastard cousin Charles Somerset as a candidate, though I'm dubious of his chances. I think there was some mention made of Stanley's younger sons. Buckingham is a kid. Just about anyone can probably claim some sliver of royal blood.

 

[Bob_Jenko]

I guess I struggle to see a Tudor army, minus its claimant, acting in a decisive enough manner that Surrey/Lincoln have to flee the country, rather than just putting together some coalition of their own. Especially given that much of Tudor's force were mercenaries, and probably inclined to go home or go looting if it looks like they're not gonna be paid.

As for adult males free to marry Elizabeth that the Tudor army likes... IDK. There was a prolonged debate about the plausibility of Tudor's bastard cousin Charles Somerset as a candidate, though I'm dubious of his chances. I think there was some mention made of Stanley's younger sons. Buckingham is a kid. Just about anyone can probably claim some sliver of royal blood.

Just thought I'd note that I do know I'm going for a massive if here. The only way anything like this happening is that the Battle of Bosworth happens exactly the way it does, with Richard charging and being seen to fall and die, but Tudor crucially is not actually seen to be killed, only his standard bearer.

As Henry Tudor had been in exile for much of his life, people probably didn't know what he looked like, so Tudor's remaining forces (Jasper Tudor, de Vere and whatever troops they had that weren't mercenaries, plus the Stanleys and potentially Northumberland) might produce 'Henry Tudor' that could even be someone such as Charles Beaufort masquerading that adds to the confusion.

But I digress. If Tudor 'wins' the battle and Richard's army is still destroyed, with the forces of Stanley, maybe Northumberland (depending on which interpretation of his lack of action you prefer) and Jasper and de Vere, and I was a leading Ricardian, I would run as far as I could with as much as I could to someone somewhere that would support me (Margaret of York always seemed very happy to have Yorkist claimants in her court).

Also, the mercenaries in Tudor's army could stay, as Stanley was very wealthy and could pay if he felt they were needed.

 

[Mikestone8]

Big problem id that the death of Mary of Burgundy left Max struggling to maintain his authority in the ow Countries.

Possible variant. If MoB doesn't have her riding accident, Max is free to intervene at the time of Buckingham's Rebellion. 1483 might become the year of the four kings.

Wild thought. If the Burgundian ships get blown west into the Channel, and eventually land in Sussex, may we get a second Battle of Hastings?

 

[Bob_Jenko]

Big problem id that the death of Mary of Burgundy left Max struggling to maintain his authority in the ow Countries.

Possible variant. If MoB doesn't have her riding accident, Max is free to intervene at the time of Buckingham's Rebellion. 1483 might become the year of the four kings.

Wild thought. If the Burgundian ships get blown west into the Channel, and eventually land in Sussex, may we get a second Battle of Hastings?

Oh, so you're saying that when Buckingham's rebellion occurs, Max could also invade England then?

My issue with that is that the English people wouldn't accept a King that had invaded in such a way, especially with Tudor still hanging around at that point. I think the people would be more likely to support Buckingham (who couldn't gain much support) than Max in 1483.

Which is why I think the only possibility would be after Bosworth, when all other adult males except Lincoln were dead.

 

[isabella]

Big problem id that the death of Mary of Burgundy left Max struggling to maintain his authority in the Low Countries.

Possible variant. If MoB doesn't have her riding accident, Max is free to intervene at the time of Buckingham's Rebellion. 1483 might become the year of the four kings.

Wild thought. If the Burgundian ships get blown west into the Channel, and eventually land in Sussex, may we get a second Battle of Hastings?

Well Max would have lost personal control of Burgundy and has not yet inherited Austria and the Empire at this point so he is basically free to try to take England...
Duchess Margaret will likely support that enterprise (who would give the crown to her niece as Queen Regnant with Max as her consort) and Burgundian nobles/council will likely finance it as that would be a good way for freeing themselves from Max once for all).

I guess I struggle to see a Tudor army, minus its claimant, acting in a decisive enough manner that Surrey/Lincoln have to flee the country, rather than just putting together some coalition of their own. Especially given that much of Tudor's force were mercenaries, and probably inclined to go home or go looting if it looks like they're not gonna be paid.

As for adult males free to marry Elizabeth that the Tudor army likes... IDK. There was a prolonged debate about the plausibility of Tudor's bastard cousin Charles Somerset as a candidate, though I'm dubious of his chances. I think there was some mention made of Stanley's younger sons. Buckingham is a kid. Just about anyone can probably claim some sliver of royal blood.

All the sons of Stanley are already married or in the church at this point...

The question of France is an interesting one. If we're talking about (which is how I read your comment) post-being crowned, then they would certainly be getting very nervous. They would definitely do everything they could to ensure that Max isn't able to marry his son to Joanna of Castille, though exactly what with the full weight of the HRE and England against them, is difficult to know. They could potentially say "We'll let you do what you want there, as long as you don't meddle with us in Brittany/Italy."

Maybe the French would push (though they'd probably have no right to) to ensure that while Maximilian was King of England, England would remain independent and would go to his kids with Elizabeth who would hold no obligation towards the HRE. This is a notion I can see some English Nobles getting behind, in fact.

France will be unable to do anything about it but England will go without any doubt to Elizabeth’s kids as she would be Queen Regnant here, not a simple Queen consort like OTL... Philip is Duke of Burgundy with Margaret after him and they will have no right on England (who will go to the kids of Cecily and James IV of Scotland if Maximilian and Elizabeth have no surviving kid)

 

[Mikestone8]

Oh, so you're saying that when Buckingham's rebellion occurs, Max could also invade England then?

My issue with that is that the English people wouldn't accept a King that had invaded in such a way, especially with Tudor still hanging around at that point. I think the people would be more likely to support Buckingham (who couldn't gain much support) than Max in 1483.

Which is why I think the only possibility would be after Bosworth, when all other adult males except Lincoln were dead.

Iirc Buckingham's forces were bogged down in the west by heavy rain, and Henry's were scattered by storms.

And Max will presumably land in the southeast, so after defeating Richard (or perhaps before, depending where Richard is at the time) he will be in possession of London, with no one in a position to move against him.

Duchess Margaret will likely support that enterprise (who would give the crown to her niece as Queen Regnant with Max as her consort)

I don't understand where this "Queen Regnant" stuff is coming from. When did anyone in the 1480s so much as consider the possibility?

And how does Margaret "give" the crown to anyone? She has no soldiers of her own to enforce any preference .

 

[isabella]

Iirc Buckingham's forces were bogged down in the west by heavy rain, and Henry's were scattered by storms.

And Max will presumably land in the southeast, so after defeating Richard (or perhaps before, depending where Richard is at the time) he will be in possession of London, with no one in a position to move against him.



I don't understand where this "Queen Regnant" stuff is coming from. When did anyone in the 1480s so much as consider the possibility?

And how does Margaret "give" the crown to anyone? She has no soldiers of her own to enforce any preference .

Well Max need army and support from Burgundy for trying anything in England and Margaret of York’s support/approval would be necessary for him in both Burgundy and England....

About the Queen Regnant I am not saying who Elizabeth will rule but who her husband will rule in her name unlike OTL... Look at the length to which Henry Tudor had gone in OTL for not leaving to anyone any doubt on the fact he was ruling in his own right AND NOT as Elizabeth’s consort and see from where came this possibility...

 

[Bob_Jenko]

don't understand where this "Queen Regnant" stuff is coming from. When did anyone in the 1480s so much as consider the possibility?

This scenario would only occur if there were no viable options elsewhere to rule, hence why I suggested it'd be a co-regnant of Elizabeth and Maximilian to give the people both an English monarch, and an adult male King (albeit one who would become increasingly absent as his obligations in the HRE increased).

 

[isabella]

This scenario would only occur if there were no viable options elsewhere to rule, hence why I suggested it'd be a co-regnant of Elizabeth and Maximilian to give the people both an English monarch, and an adult male King (albeit one who would become increasingly absent as his obligations in the HRE increased).

Elizabeth would be the Queen and Maximilian would be King jure-uxoris aka ruling England on her claim on the throne, like many other husbands of Queens had done before and after him (and like he has already done in Burgundy)...

 

[Mikestone8]

Elizabeth would be the Queen and Maximilian would be King jure-uxoris aka ruling England on her claim on the throne, like many other husbands of Queens had done before and after him.

Not in England.
.
Could you explain exactly what difference there was in English law (foreign precedents don't count) between a king "Jure uxoris" and any other kind of king? Afaics, once anointed and crowned his is simply king, pure and simple.

Yes I know all about Philip and Mary but that was still far n the future and he was seeking the hand a a Queen who was already ruling in her own right. TTL, Maximilian would be the man in possession and EoY would have no title at all except whatever Max's soldiers had won for her.