Post Boer War British Army Recommendations.

[Deleted member 1487]

So Madsen LMG, Lewis MMG, Vickers HMG. Maybe a midwar mod to the Madsen so it can reliably use Lewis mags?

Convert the Lewis pan mags to a Bren style mag.

So no one else thinks infantry guns are a good idea? I'd think wheeled, infantry moveable short ranged guns, even if heavier than a stokes mortar (which didn't exist yet), would be extremely useful as a battalion pocket artillery and easily developed given the tech of the day.

Hey get this, rolling barrage in the 2nd Boer War:

Artillery in the Second Boer War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The British had success when they ceased using artillery by itself and used it in conjunction with infantry. British General Buller linked the use of artillery and the movement of infantry into continuous interlocking assaults upon each hill south of Ladysmith. As soon as shelling had finished in a location the infantry moved. The front collapsed on the 27th when use was made of a creeping curtain of shell fire sent over the heads of advancing infantry destroying everything 100 yards ahead of them. It was this tactic of the creeping barrage that has been described by Pakenham as "revolutionary".[4]

Even a developed older mountain gun would be good in the role:

QF 2.95-inch mountain gun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

QF 3.7-inch mountain howitzer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

If the British were going to adapt a mountain gun for use by the infantry after the Boer War it would be the BL 10-Pounder Mountain Gun. If the Ruperts can have horses to ride while everyone else marches, then the gunners can have mules or pack horses to move the guns.

BL 10-pounder mountain gun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Some Bloke]

Dumb question, what advantage would the conventional Bren style mag have over the Lewis gun pan mag? Didn't the latter have more ammo?

 

[Some Bloke]

The Madsen would certainly make sense

I watched the Project lightning series and the Madsen performed well

But the malfunctioning Lewis gun - despite the mechanical issues it was suffering at the time still comprehensively beat the other guns in pretty much every aspect

So if they can get a Lewis - get a Lewis

But no reason not to go Madsen Post Boer war and then Lewis from 1911-13

If the British were going to adapt a mountain gun for use by the infantry after the Boer War it would be the BL 10-Pounder Mountain Gun. If the Ruperts can have horses to ride while everyone else marches, then the gunners can have mules or pack horses to move the guns.

BL 10-pounder mountain gun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Smaller, lighter and handier than other artillery, which is always a good thing in trench warfare. Maybe experiments with rockets? Other handy light weapon with decent range and firepower?

With earlier adoption of lmgs, mortars and perhaps rockets, you'd have fairly decent combined arms down to brigade level.

Maybe have the Divisional Exercises every 5 years rather than every 7.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Dumb question, what advantage would the conventional Bren style mag have over the Lewis gun pan mag? Didn't the latter have more ammo?

It's easier to carry, less easily damaged and all but the topmost round in the magazine is protected from dirt and mud.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

It's easier to carry, less easily damaged and all but the topmost round in the magazine is protected from dirt and mud.

View attachment 529967

And easier to load as well something that all drum magazines are definitely not

A rifleman in a Section having handed over his 2 full bren magazines to the gun team (ie the section 2ic / Lance Corporal running between men getting their ammo) for 2 empties - can probably fill them both in a minute or 2 during any lull.

Where as the loading of a drum mag was a glacial process by comparison and really required a tool

And the Bren Mag was easier to carry than the PAN mags

But regarding the Pan mag for the Lewis any dirt is likely to drop out and as you can see from the picture you shared there are no tight tolerances to get gummed up unless you have Karl and Ian pouring Arizona Mud into it

 

[Cryhavoc101]

How accurate would rockets have been in this period?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

But regarding the Pan mag for the Lewis any dirt is likely to drop out and as you can see from the picture you shared there are no tight tolerances to get gummed up unless you have Karl and Ian pouring Arizona Mud into it

Drop one in a muddy shell hole in Flanders and those rounds are going to be caked in slime. That's not going to do the inner workings of your Lewis any good.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

So let recap.

Organisation - operate the Regular 6 Divisions and 14 TA divisions plus 6 Reg Cavalry and 14 Yeomanry (TA) cavalry Brigades into 6 Corps sized formations each one based around the reg units creating the Corps HQs without robbing units of field officers and capable of initially forming 3 Field Armies each of 2 Corps within 2-3 months

Have an Imperial staff modelled on the German System

Have enough 'modern' artillery and other required tables of equipment to fill out the TA/Yeomanry units.

Equip each Battalion with the recommended 6 Vickers Machine guns (and not just 2), introduce the Madsen and later lewis gun at Platoon level.

Stokes mortar or equivalent ASAP at Battalion level

Hand Grenades?

Infantry guns at Brigade level?

Have at least a plan to provide enough shells and other equipment for a continental force of 20 Divisions in the first few months of a European war

Have a Motor Transport Corps - at least conduct experimentations with Motor transport

Have some of them new fangled heavier than air flying things

Experiment with radios

Limited conscription for all 20-22 year olds in England, Scotland and Wales - 3 months training plus minimum of 21 months as a TA / Yeoman (this to create a pool of trained men during time of war)

And.......bicycles

Drop one in a muddy shell hole in Flanders and those rounds are going to be caked in slime. That's not going to do the inner workings of your Lewis any good.

Nor the poor SOB 'whot dropped it' when the lance Corporal and Corporal kick the shit out of him LOL

 

[marathag]

How accurate would rockets have been in this period?

Unguided Rockets aren't accurate, at all even with the spin or fin stabilized.

The advantage is cheap and lightweight for the explosive weight carried.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Unguided Rockets aren't accurate, at all even with the spin or fin stabilized.

The advantage is cheap and lightweight for the explosive weight carried.

Maybe in a Katyusha multiple rocket launcher sort of deployment? When they are used as a short term large area denial/suppression system prior to an attack

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

That sounds strangely familiar. Something for a 3/4 blind 2nd Lieutenant in the Irish Guards to do perhaps?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

That sounds strangely familiar. Something for a 3/4 blind 2nd Lieutenant in the Irish Guards to do perhaps?

Is that in reference to someone specific?

Intrigued

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

2nd Lt John Kipling. Rejected as unfit for service due to atrocious eyesight multiple times but his father pulled a few strings. Last seen in no mans land with his face blown off. In my timeline Oh God Hood's gone I had him end up as an officer in a rocket battery.

 

[Meordal]

I found out that the first known military unit to use ghillie suits was the Lovat Scouts, during the Second Boer War. Recruited from gamekeepers on Highland estates, the unit was commanded by an American, Major Frederick Russel Burnham. Just like their Boer scout opponents, these scouts were well practised in the arts of marksmanship, fieldcraft and military tactics.

In OTL, the Lovat scouts were disbanded in July 1901, once the fighting was deemed to be over, even though their experience would have suited the guerilla warfare that ensued..

I do wonder what would have happened, if the British army began to train their own snipers and scouts in specialized schools right after the Second Boer War. In OTL, Major Hesketh Hesketh-Prichard was only given formal permission to begin sniper training in 1915, and founded the First Army School of Sniping, Observation, and Scouting at Linghem in France in 1916.

You can expand the curriculum with irregular warfare (guerrilla warfare and commandos), following the example of Boer Kommandos.

EDIT : In a later post #303, I do explain how the friendship between Burnham and Baden-Powell made it possible ITTL.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Not continuing with snipers was probably down to a feeling that it was little short of murder by the High Command.

 

[marathag]

Maybe in a Katyusha multiple rocket launcher sort of deployment? When they are used as a short term large area denial/suppression system prior to an attack

The big problem with early Rocketry is that it relies on Black Powder, that is hygroscopic and temperature sensitive in storage, both of which will effect its burn rate on use.
So if damp, will burn with a very short range, to having cracked grains that instantly overpressure the tube and explode on launch.

There were simple, safer rocket fuels that could have been done 50 years before WWI, but no one had experimented with them for that use.

That said, everything to make a Panzerfaust or RPG-2 existed at 1900 for a way to accurately toss HE at a horse sized target 150 yards away.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

WWII British Rockets used cordite for fuel. There's no technical reason it couldn't have been done before WWI, someone just needs to think to do it.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

2nd Lt John Kipling. Rejected as unfit for service due to atrocious eyesight multiple times but his father pulled a few strings. Last seen in no mans land with his face blown off. In my timeline Oh God Hood's gone I had him end up as an officer in a rocket battery.

Ahh of course and well done

"My Boy Jack"

"Have you news of my boy Jack?”
Not this tide.
"When d'you think that he'll come back?"
Not with this wind blowing, and this tide.

"Has any one else had word of him?"
Not this tide.
For what is sunk will hardly swim,
Not with this wind blowing, and this tide.

"Oh, dear, what comfort can I find?"
None this tide,
Nor any tide,
Except he did not shame his kind—
Not even with that wind blowing, and that tide.

Then hold your head up all the more,
This tide,
And every tide;
Because he was the son you bore,
And gave to that wind blowing and that tide!

(Written by his father for the parents of Jack Cornwell the youngest recipient of a VC after the death of John Kipling)

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I found out that the first known military unit to use ghillie suits was the Lovat Scouts, during the Second Boer War. Recruited from gamekeepers on Highland estates, the unit was commanded by an American, Major Frederick Russel Burnham. Just like their Boer scout opponents, these scouts were well practised in the arts of marksmanship, fieldcraft and military tactics.

I do wonder what would have happened, if the British army began to train their own snipers and scouts in specialized schools right after the Second Boer War. In OTL, Major Hesketh Hesketh-Prichard was only given formal permission to begin sniper training in 1915, and founded the First Army School of Sniping, Observation, and Scouting at Linghem in France in 1916.

You can expand the curriculum with irregular warfare (guerrilla warfare and commandos), following the example of Boer Kommandos.

Definitely a more hard nosed attitude was required

A sniper is after all the ultimate epitome of infantry skills

Perhaps reintroduce 'Chosen men' into a given Regiment - these are scout snipers and treated as a cut above by their peers.