WI: The Wegener thesis became the basis of the Kriegsmarine strategy in WW2?

[BlackDragon98]

Brandenburgers under Adrian von Folkersam took Maikop without any losses by masquerading as NKVD troops.
Haven't heard of the Italians taking who cities from the Soviets with 0 losses.

 

[McPherson]

Brandenburgers under Adrian von Folkersam took Maikop without any losses by masquerading as NKVD troops.
Haven't heard of the Italians taking who cities from the Soviets with 0 losses.

Those were Russians in the Caucasus (1942) and it was a stunt after THEY PULLED OUT. He had ZERO success against the Americans during the Bulge. And... the Russians killed him in Poland (1945), so even they caught on.

In other words, he was a non-event and ineffectual. Not like the Italians against the British and Russians.

 

[thaddeus]

just IMHO, the French Atlantic bases sank any collaboration with the Vichy regime? ("they're not going anywhere") and proved to be something of a mirage as Allies developed ASW and shot up the departing uboats.

so if they built as originally planned in Norway, they are only part the way to cracking the GIUK Gap? they need a waystation , clandestine meeting point? therefore my suggestion of Greenland, also the cryolite mine there was crucial to US aluminum production at the time.

the whole idea is just speculative fiction, the few aircraft they had useful, HE-119, ME-261 were limited, specialty types, and the tanker uboats not even conceived pre-war? however it resembles Narvik in that defenders would be difficult to evict?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

If Italo Balbo can fly to Chicago in the CRAP airplanes he used, yes GREENLAND.

Just have to hope that there are no Italian AAA units involved then

And small matter of using the British Isles as part of that Journey

Color me unconvinced

 

[McPherson]

just IMHO, the French Atlantic bases sank any collaboration with the Vichy regime? ("they're not going anywhere") and proved to be something of a mirage as Allies developed ASW and shot up the departing uboats.

so if they built as originally planned in Norway, they are only part the way to cracking the GIUK Gap? they need a waystation , clandestine meeting point? therefore my suggestion of Greenland, also the cryolite mine there was crucial to US aluminum production at the time.

the whole idea is just speculative fiction, the few aircraft they had useful, HE-119, ME-261 were limited, specialty types, and the tanker uboats not even conceived pre-war? however it resembles Narvik in that defenders would be difficult to evict?

1. Germany and the LW are not nearby for log support.
2. This time it is the United States Navy and MARINES. Whole different kettle of fish. The Germans try, they die. As they DID.

Just have to hope that there are no Italian AAA units involved then

And small matter of using the British Isles as part of that Journey

Color me unconvinced

UK was not essential to the feat. Northern Ireland would suffice. And not even northern Ireland. Plenty of lakes and ports in Eire.

And there were alternate axes of approach and departure..

The limiter was time aloft, not geographic landing spots. Nine-fifteen hours for an SM 55.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

UK was not essential to the feat. Northern Ireland would suffice. And not even northern Ireland. Plenty of lakes and ports in Eire.

Northern Ireland was part of the British isles and part of the UK. Landing in Eire is a sure way for the British to be made aware.

The limiter was time aloft, not geographic landing spots. Nine-fifteen hours for an SM 55.

Time aloft means landing spots have to be chosen accordingly. You can argue both are sides of the same coin.

 

[McPherson]

Northern Ireland was part of the British isles and part of the UK. Landing in Eire is a sure way for the British to be made aware.

You could use the Brazil route.

Time aloft means landing spots have to be chosen accordingly. You can argue both are sides of the same coin.

Balbo used ships for spot support and could have evaded the UK as he did on the return leg;. The time aloft endurance is the only critical factor. Both cites make a point of stressing how Balbo pre-planned his routes with the aircraft technical limitations in mind.

The UK was convenient for the outfly because Balbo wanted to send a "message" to the Germans, French and British. The Americans certainly noticed.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

UK was not essential to the feat. Northern Ireland would suffice. And not even northern Ireland. Plenty of lakes and ports in Eire.

And there were alternate axes of approach and departure..

The limiter was time aloft, not geographic landing spots. Nine-fifteen hours for an SM 55.

They are not landing and Refueling in Eire or Northern ireland (which is part of the UK or effectively aligned with the UK in the case of Eire)

And they are not doing the same in Iceland (under UK and then US control)

So being able to stay in the air for 15 hours before the noise stops at about 100 MPH is not going to cut it

Derry to Reykjavik alone is approximately 1320 kilometers.

Brest to Reykjavik 1,267.50 mi (2,039.84 km) (and that is crossing the British Isles)

Bergen to Reykjavik might be a better idea but that is still 904.98 mi (1,456.42 km)

Unless it's a one way op - and even that's pushing it - it's a nope from me!

 

[McPherson]

They are not landing and Refueling in Eire or Northern ireland (which is part of the UK or effectively aligned with the UK in the case of Eire)

And they are not doing the same in Iceland (under UK and then US control)

So being able to stay in the air for 15 hours before the noise stops at about 100 MPH is not going to cut it

Derry to Reykjavik alone is approximately 1320 kilometers.

Brest to Reykjavik 1,267.50 mi (2,039.84 km) (and that is crossing the British Isles)

Bergen to Reykjavik might be a better idea but that is still 904.98 mi (1,456.42 km)

Unless it's a one way op - and even that's pushing it - it's a nope from me!

People who lack imagination lose wars. Ever hear of French Frigate Shoal?

Operation K.

Short version: The IJN tried their trick in March and bungled it. When Midway rolled around and they needed it again, the USN capped the naval base and patrolled French Frigate Shoal and every other conceivable putdown spot within H8K range before the Battle of Midway. Net result was the IJN was aerially blinded.

The Japanese still tried. If not for that subtender at French Frigate Shoal deep inside the Hawaiian sea frontier, it could have given the IJN at least one overflight flight to Pearl Harbor. NEVER assume that an enemy cannot do what he shows you he can plainly do.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

People who lack imagination lose wars. Ever hear of French Frigate Shoal?

Operation K.

Short version: The IJN tried their trick in March and bungled it. When Midway rolled around and they needed it again, the USN capped the naval base and patrolled French Frigate Shoal and every other conceivable putdown spot within H8K range before the Battle of Midway. Net result was the IJN was aerially blinded.

The Japanese still tried. If not for that subtender at French Frigate Shoal deep inside the Hawaiian sea frontier, it could have given the IJN at least one overflight flight to Pearl Harbor. NEVER assume that an enemy cannot do what he shows you he can plainly do.

As I said if its a one way mission then it's maybe possible - the Argentines did it probably about 4 times during the Falklands war according to Rear Admiral Parry by flying attack missions beyond the combat range ie a one way trip in trying to attack the British.

Knowing that the British played Cricket with a straight bat and would take them POW when they bailed out they did what the British did not expect although to no effect.

And the British were not adverse to sending in a one way op in WW2 so why should we expect the Axis not to be?

However I still question the ability to carry out such an op in 1940-42 and for it to be any more effective than Operation K was.

And they would only ever do it once and the RAF Regiment (partially as a result of Crete) and I suspect a USAAF equivalent would be stood up earlier as a force that can defend an airfield and the area around it.

As for using submarines etc to refuel planes - I would not want to be trying that in the North Atlantic.

 

[McPherson]

As for using submarines etc to refuel planes - I would not want to be trying that in the North Atlantic.

British (^^^). NTB, but they did it.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

View attachment 529982

British (^^^). NTB, but they did it.

That looks like a nice sea state

They would be better off simply using the boat to take them all the way and rowing ashore!

 

[McPherson]

That looks like a nice sea state

They would be better off simply using the boat to take them all the way and rowing ashore!

More NTBs.

Following the first launch in 1953, the Tunny began training crews to handle and launch missiles. The time from surfacing to launching birds was trimmed from a long 30 minutes to a much more acceptable 15. The Tunny participated in dozens of launches in the Pacific, including one in the Gulf of Alaska which demonstrated its ability to launch in arctic conditions. When the Barbero went into commission as an SSG in 1957, she was deployed in the Atlantic with the Sixth Fleet. The nuclear Regulus provided a mighty power-projection tool, and the Navy made certain its presence was felt in both oceans. In 1958 during the Lebanon Crisis, Barbero went to war footing in the Atlantic, while the Tunny guarded approaches in the Northern Pacific.

INSANE was the code word for USN for that era,

 

[Belisarius II]

I'm not really sure what the point of this discussion is? Yes the Germans set up a clandestine weather station in Greenland, for long periods of time. They got there by U-Boat. The Axis could've sent a suicide air, or commando mission to Iceland, but what would be the point? Well trained crews, airborne troops, and transports are too valuable to just throw away. By the way Brazil was an American Ally, so a South American route across the Atlantic is impractical to. One of the silliest what if's I ever heard was the Newt Gingrich Story were German Commandos destroyed the nuclear facility in Oakridge Tennessee. They flew in aboard JU-52's at night pretending to be a commercial flight. I'm sure they found road signs from the airport that read "This way to the nuclear laboratories". Better still they were in German, auf diese Weise zu den Kernlabors.

 

[McPherson]

I'm not really sure what the point of this discussion is? Yes the Germans set up a clandestine weather station in Greenland, for long periods of time. They got there by U-Boat. The Axis could've sent a suicide air, or commando mission to Iceland, but what would be the point? Well trained crews, airborne troops, and transports are too valuable to just throw away. By the way Brazil was an American Ally, so a South American route across the Atlantic is impractical to. One of the silliest what if's I ever heard was the Newt Gingrich Story were German Commandos destroyed the nuclear facility in Oakridge Tennessee. They flew in aboard JU-52's at night pretending to be a commercial flight. I'm sure they found road signs from the airport that read "This way to the nuclear laboratories". Better still they were in German, auf diese Weise zu den Kernlabors.

1. The Germans found manned weather ships and stations almost impossible. Why they never used SUBMARINES as weather outpost stations in enemy waters, like the Americans did, is beyond me.
2. Speaking of automated weather stations. It amazes me that the Germans who arguably had the best robotic scientific instrumentation in the late 1930s never developed a decent weather buoys system. Once again it is the Americans who as part of their contribution to international weather reporting, first with the USCG and later the USN started to globally dump automated floating weather buoys all over the world oceans inasmuch they had relatively few global weather reporting stations like the British and French did. (See 3. for why THAT matters, because the British and French could have thought of 3. IF they had the need to dump weather-buoys off the back end of a cruiser.
3. What was so important about weather buoys? Part of that buoy was an echo measuring device to test the temperature of the world ocean. ===> Sonobuoys. Bad for U-boats when the Americans caught on in 1941 that could be used to ping for the Berlin maniac's pirates. The Americans were always a little "slow" on the uptake.