Yea i think Frederick II was under guardianship by that time, i ment Heinrich VI, i am not sure how much power he would habe in relation to the pope, but i think after the road to canossa, the emperors and the pope had a bad relation and the papacy constantly tried to curtail the power of the emperors, especially in Italy, they did not want to be boxed in, either you need a very very decisive victory over the catholic church, like the french once did when they established the avignion papacy or it will be almost impossible for the staufers to break papal power without civil war. Keep in mind all these princes of the empire are just waiting for a sign of weakness. However, before the interregnum the position of emperor was way stronger then later down the line so the staufers still have a shot at establishing their rule. I think the most realistic outcome would be 2 Hohenstaufer Branches, one beign based in southern italy with Frederick II and his descendans (who loved italy, grew up there partly and saw himself just as much if not more as a italian rather then a german king) and one branch of Staufers in Swabia with people like Philipp II. Who would hold the emperor titel ? I am really not sure, but without the interregnum the empire as a whole would develope completely different. I think a mighty Staufer Dynastie in the southwest would always be a power factor, essentially they would become something like early Habsburgs but with a more Germany (and/or italy) focus. I dont think to be honest that any sane emperor would move the capital officialy to Milan, as that would mean disgruntling ALL the german princes and making room for potential rivals. They would always need to travel and be present atleast somewhat. I know that during the early HRE days there were characters who wanted to rule from rome but i think nothing became of that. Not sure if Frederick II and his descendands would have what it takes but who knows ? So all in all, i think it would come down to having two branches, One based in swabia, possibly with control of some of Arles and Burgundy and one beign based in Sicily and maybe with aspirations for Jerusalem. Both of them could be emperor tho it would make more sense for the german branch. The interregnum and alot of powerloss for the emperor would not happen and i think the staufers could have a shot to establish their rule with the erbreichsplan (maybe giving up italian aspirations and just ruling them personaly not as part of the empire to pacify the pope) also the staufers would have a good base inside the empire even if they loose the throne they would still be big shots and a uniting factor of the region. One thing that i think could MAYBE happen later down the line is, that you have a split towards a northern and southern realm. Also as a side note, there were aspirations in the city of Mainz to become a rival to rome and appoint an antipope, it was only stopped due to bad luck more or less, but i dont know that much about this, might be interesting. here a link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_of_Wittelsbach and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_I_(archbishop_of_Mainz)
The House of Komnenos, Like a Phoenix From the Ashes: An Eastern Roman Timeline
- Thread starter Basileus_Komnenos
- Start date
Yea i think Frederick II was under guardianship by that time, i ment Heinrich VI, i am not sure how much power he would habe in relation to the pope, but i think after the road to canossa, the emperors and the pope had a bad relation and the papacy constantly tried to curtail the power of the emperors, especially in Italy, they did not want to be boxed in, either you need a very very decisive victory over the catholic church, like the french once did when they established the avignion papacy or it will be almost impossible for the staufers to break papal power without civil war. Keep in mind all these princes of the empire are just waiting for a sign of weakness. However, before the interregnum the position of emperor was way stronger then later down the line so the staufers still have a shot at establishing their rule. I think the most realistic outcome would be 2 Hohenstaufer Branches, one beign based in southern italy with Frederick II and his descendans (who loved italy, grew up there partly and saw himself just as much if not more as a italian rather then a german king) and one branch of Staufers in Swabia with people like Philipp II. Who would hold the emperor titel ? I am really not sure, but without the interregnum the empire as a whole would develope completely different. I think a mighty Staufer Dynastie in the southwest would always be a power factor, essentially they would become something like early Habsburgs but with a more Germany (and/or italy) focus. I dont think to be honest that any sane emperor would move the capital officialy to Milan, as that would mean disgruntling ALL the german princes and making room for potential rivals. They would always need to travel and be present atleast somewhat. I know that during the early HRE days there were characters who wanted to rule from rome but i think nothing became of that. Not sure if Frederick II and his descendands would have what it takes but who knows ? So all in all, i think it would come down to having two branches, One based in swabia, possibly with control of some of Arles and Burgundy and one beign based in Sicily and maybe with aspirations for Jerusalem. Both of them could be emperor tho it would make more sense for the german branch. The interregnum and alot of powerloss for the emperor would not happen and i think the staufers could have a shot to establish their rule with the erbreichsplan (maybe giving up italian aspirations and just ruling them personaly not as part of the empire to pacify the pope) also the staufers would have a good base inside the empire even if they loose the throne they would still be big shots and a uniting factor of the region. One thing that i think could MAYBE happen later down the line is, that you have a split towards a northern and southern realm. Also as a side note, there were aspirations in the city of Mainz to become a rival to rome and appoint an antipope, it was only stopped due to bad luck more or less, but i dont know that much about this, might be interesting. here a link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_of_Wittelsbach and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_I_(archbishop_of_Mainz)
A Better Quality Map
Glad you like it. I'm gonna be focusing on some of the characters that are involved in the Latin part of the world next. Philippe II Augustus, Louis VIII "The Lion" and Saint Louis are all going to be major players here as well. Let's just say that its not gonna be a fun time to be a Plantagenet here. I'll also be going into detail about the characters that are David and Alexios Komennos in addition to that of their dynasty.
Do you think an alternate interregnum could occur with Frederick II contesting his uncle for power if say Philip of Swabia has sons and decides to make Frederick's cousins as King of the Romans? Do you think Philip could also work to defeat the Danes who took the Baltic Coast?
Not really, I think who if his uncle survived and had male heir(s), Frederick will stay happily to rule only his maternal lands... he has neither the power base or the interest for contesting his uncle’s ruleship in Germany...
Well first of all, Philips and his wife could very well have a son, he was 32 his wife 29 when he was assasinated. After Henry VI's death, his widow Constance made sure that Frederick and his sicilian realm would be separated from the Empire so when he comes to age he will have not alot of interest in the empire. Also a thing to note: Philip was also ruler of tuscany but was willing to give it to the (i think) cousin(who would marry one of philips doughters) of the pope to win the imperial election and smoothen relations (Basically what Otto IV did but without surrendering everything, especially when it comes to crown suzerainity).
This would leave Philip to be focused on the empire and Frederick on sicily and by large italy. Philip would be a very effective ruler in the HRE, before his assasination he was on the verge of crushing the revolts and there were still substantial imperial lands in the HRE, the Hohenstaufers also were the heirs of the salian franconian lands and i think he would atleast try to grab some of lombardy once he defeated the welfs but will probably be way less italy focused. Tho you have to take into account that Philip would not be able to enact the Erbreichsplan since that would question his own legitimacy, maybe his sons could tho. It is also not clear if all of tuscany would be given to the cousin of the pope and i think if all goes well for germany he might later down the line atleast try to get some of italy under his tump (but this might be a strech).
As for Frederick II contesting Philip or hist Kinds, i really cant see it. He focused IRL mostly on Italy and during that time much was lost for the staufers in germany, he was genuinly disinterest in germany and like i mentioned above it was made sure that sicily and the HRE were seperated. He saw himself more as a Italian monarch and made sure to build up sicily. I think he is probably the most unlikely candidate to really contest his kin in swabia. Also Dynastic solidarity played a role during politics that time, atleast in this area, thats why the pope was also so worried even if there were two different staufers north and south of him respectively.
Also an interesting sidenote for a surviving Philip: The Welfs were pretty solidly in the Plantagenet camp at this this time though- Otto was John's nephew after all and the Capetians were somewhat on the side of the Hohenstaufers (probably not fully trusting but oh well..). With the welfs down, the french suddenly have their hands free which could lead to an earlier english collapse.
Romans did speak Latin at one point. (I used the English translations which featured the Latinized version.
Unlike in otl, the Komnenoi managed to completely cut off the Seljuks from the Black Sea trade. This will likely make them angry and want to strike to at least take Sinope which was one of the most important strategic ports in Anatolia.
As for adminstration, if you're familiar with Mithridates' ancient Pontic Kingdom, that should give you an idea of what to expect of Trebizond in the immediate future. The Niceans are practically the successors of the Angeloi. Theodoros' claim to the throne rests on Alexios' being illegitimate. The Komnenoi hate the Angeloi which the Laskarids married into. Conflict is definitely bound to ensue.
Thanks! I tried really hard this time to draw it out rather than using the old video game province map templates from EU IV and CKII.
Byzantine history is practically a Roman-wank from a certain point of view. The Roman state is essentially one of the longest continuous states in all of history. The foundation of Rome was in 753 BC while the end of Rhomania was in 1453, or 1461 if you count the Komnenian Empire of Trebizond. So that's at least 2,200 years of existence. No other nation state can boast to be that long aside for say Iran or China (but some would argue that the Islamic Republic of Iran and People's Republic of China are a break in the continuity).
Plus I wouldn't say its a Roman wank here, since even if the Komnenoi manage to retake all the pre Fourth Crusade Lands, there's still the issue of re-consolidating everything, restoring the central government, rebuilding damaged infrastrucure and Constantinople, etc.
Though if Philip has a son, I can see him try to play politics to make his son the King of the Romans at least, to assert his supremacy over the Papal aligned Margrave of Tuscany. Frederick II ruling Sicily though is a really interesting scenario which fascinates me.
Eparkhos
Banned
You're trying to justify the use of Latinizations in Eastern Rome? On AH.com?
So you have chosen...death.
P.S. I'm just kidding. Don't take it too seriously.
What is dead may never die, but rises again harder and stronger.
Lmao! I'm joking as well. Unfortunately text can't really convey the tone needed to really tell a joke.
Do you have any basemaps that you recommend for the later period of the 13th century? Any for the HRE and Kingdom of France?
Of course he would but keep in mind, the Titel King of Germany is inherently tied to the titel of holy roman emperor, thats why people back then called the titel first "Rex Francorum " and after the Saliers "Rex Romanorum ". So Philip of course would try to make his son successor. But by this time it is important for Philip to smoothen relations with the pope, he would need him to be crowned and probably for other favours later down the line, the pope was one of the main reason the emperors were not able to prevent the Empire from fracturing and themselves from loosing power. And it will be way way way better for Philip if he can concentrate on the German part of the Holy Roman Empire and Maybe some Parts or North Italy. Imo it it inevitable that italy will someday break away from the Empire, however, the Emperor could still get some use out of it if he playes his cards smart. I think Philip would give parts of Tuscany and some other concessions to the papacy in central italy initially, this would secure his crowing and he would not have any hazzel with the pope so he can concentrate on building a powerbase at home. I think it could be possible that he will later down the line try to reinforce his position in italy again once he has a strong secure powerbase in germany but that would be a very secondary thing to him. More important then italy is that he keeps crown suzerainity and other privileges of the emperor and strenghens the position of emperor. The only reason to keep beign involved in italy is money but with a strong powerbase in gemany this reason also shrinks i think. Frederick could very well establish a rather powerfull sicilian kingdom. Sicily was very well adminitered and centralised under his rule, i think it is even possible that he or his sucessors could get some part of north africa if they are lucky (id say also the latin empire but i think the trebezondians will get that
). The key interest of the pope here is to prevent a staufer encirclement and keep the emperors weak, OR himself strong and at good relations with the emperor....or preferably both. Thats why Philip cant just say fuck off to the pope.
Eparkhos
Banned
I use 8K-Bam for mapping, and Wikimedia Commons has some good ones in its atlas section. I'll be more specific when I get home.
Me too! Glad to know that you're enjoying this timeline. I'm almost done with the next update so that chapter should be out soon.
If you're a fan of 19th century history I also started a Napoleon II Timeline called Imperator Francorum.
Thanks for the silver!