"Our Struggle": What If Hitler Had Been a Communist?

[Diverge]

Well, it's entirely possible that Giuseppe Zangara's assassination attempt on FDR (assuming that still occurs in TTL) could be seen by some Americans as a plot by the Comitern to start a revolution in the US, which could lead to a surge in anti-socialist behavior amongst the American population.

Even though Zangara had nothing to do with the left and the Communists wouldn’t be in power in Germany at that point? Nah, I kinda doubt there’s any correlation there.

I still don’t feel like that would make a good basis for fighting a 11+ year overseas war, even if it were true.

 

[Johnharry]

I wouldn't say it's ASB, especially considering the divergences and subsequent butterflies that have already occurred in the timeline. It would be very easy for America to experience a "red scare," especially after a successful communist revolution in Germany. If Red Germany or the USSR were to try to, say, incite a communist revolution in America that would most certainly turn America against them. And I wouldn't put it past the Comintern to try that.

There's also Mexico. Perhaps there will be a Comintern version of the Zimmerman Telegram? I believe its too late for any interference in the Mexican Revolution - but a more socialist/leftist Mexico after the revolution could easily make Americans fear communism as well.

People often over estimate anti communist sentiment. While there were pre 50s red scares, the reason why the 50s red scare was actually effective at reaching most levels of society was because they felt that communism would threaten their post war prosperity - america at this point, pre new deal, was very unequal and taking an anti communist stance is pretty dangerous, that's partially what caused Hoover to fail besides his ineptitude.
FDR won't get votes by going anti communist, and as I said, he wasn't merely ambivalent to Stalin or considered him an ally, he admired him. FDR's support base was also strictly anti Fascist, and allying with Mussolini would be seen as heretical and it would kill his chance for re election.

Japan remains the main threat in FDR's mind - and that may lead to the situation I brought up. Granted, assuming FDR loses this could change, but that's unlikely.

Also sorry, Communist Zimmerman telegram doesn't make much sense. The only way would probably be as mentioned above, a successful business plot or a Fascist America.

America will get economic revitalization, but this time probably focus exclusively upon Japan.

 

[Johnharry]

Hate to break it to you, but I believe it was implied in Chapter XXVII that not only had the US sided with Britain by 1947, but also that the Comintern was starting to lose the war.

1947 is very late for one, and second, yes, they were losing in that field but it was implied to be a hard fight in Northern France - hence the stalemate. The allies ability to storm Berlin and Moscow is questionable and nuclear bombs aren't the magical weapon they are often potrayed as.

"Hate to break it to you," what? It is not like I am some hard core Tanky rooting for the comintern (though I hope Mussolini's italy collapses)

Anyway Northern France after 11 years would exhaust both sides and some armistice would be required, and it wasn't elaborated what become of Italy, so it is fairly clear it will be far from a full on western victory.

 

[Perfidious Albion]

Yeah, US entering on the side of the capitalist powers is ASB. Roosevelt admired Stalin (even before WWII) and is far more focused on the Japanese

Serious question: in whichever year turns out to be the start of ATL WW2, how do you know Roosevelt will be president?

 

[jerseyguy]

If Germany maintains its pre-war relationship with the KMT and Moscow has more resources to expand outside Europe because of a friendly government in Berlin, the western democracies will face the specter of German-Soviet-Chinese "Red Triumvirate" dominating Eurasia.

The Volga Germans and the Baltic Germans may become a kind of cultural bridge between the world's two communist superpowers ITTL.

Will the "Judeo-Bolshevik" trope be joined by the boogeyman of "Teutono-Bolshevism" in areas with large German minorities? Also, Bundism may have a future ITTL as the Comintern's answer to Zionism. There will be a large Yiddish-speaking community left in Eastern Europe and it's plausible that the communist Bloc will have a majority of the world's Jewish population.

 

[HagenWest]

About the german-KMT relations. Could that be how WW2 starts? Germany expands is already existing involvment in china, supported by the USSR, and when Japan attacks this also triggers war in europe?

 

[the Imperium of Canada]

I thought this would be fitting

 

[Darksider166]

I thought this would be fitting
View attachment 522855

More like "Unser Kampf".

 

[Born in the USSA]

More like "Unser Kampf".

My first thought was "Ein Kampf"

 

[Tolkiene]

Ein Kampf means 'a struggle/fight'.

Unser Kampf is 'our struggle/fight' in English.

 

[Born in the USSA]

Ein Kampf means 'a struggle/fight'.

Unser Kampf is 'our struggle/fight' in English.

I know, but "a struggle" still sounds more inclusive than "my struggle", plus it rhymes

 

[The Red]

Any maps for this scenario?

There are two in the index, one detailing revolutionary (and counter-revolutionary) activity in Germany between 1918-24 and one of Central Europe in 1936, both created by @Tsar of New Zealand

Will the "Judeo-Bolshevik" trope be joined by the boogeyman of "Teutono-Bolshevism" in areas with large German minorities?

Something I’ve mentioned, or at least inferred, is that some will argue that the DAR’s German Ideology is just another manifestation of Prussian Militarism. Similar to how in IOTL some IR theorists point to the USSR’s aims as having been similar to Imperial Russia’s since the mid-19th century or how the PRC’s doctrine seems more at home with the original KMT.

Also, Bundism may have a future ITTL as the Comintern's answer to Zionism. There will be a large Yiddish-speaking community left in Eastern Europe and it's plausible that the communist Bloc will have a majority of the world's Jewish population.

It’s an interesting point, on the one hand German Ideology would seem to be in line with a form of Bundism (“You’re German workers who happen to be Jewish, and that’s that) but as the Comintern later expands across Europe the argument may arise that the Jews are a nation unto themselves but without a homeland they don’t fit which may lead to some debate as to how coherent Bundism actually is. Of course this will be complicated by the fact that the DAR’s views on religion aren’t particulary friendly and that may encompasse identity borne of religion. There’s also going to be the small issue of WW2 acting as something of a distraction.

 

[currylambchop]

Anyway Northern France after 11 years would exhaust both sides and some armistice would be required, and it wasn't elaborated what become of Italy, so it is fairly clear it will be far from a full on western victory.

I'd be willing to bet that the Comintern gets nukes first (given that the Great Purge would likely be butterflied away and Jewish Scientists like Einstein would probably stay behind in the new Socialist Germany) and just nukes London to secure an armistice where they'd control most of Eurasia.

 

[GDIS Pathe]

I'd be willing to bet that the Comintern gets nukes first (given that the Great Purge would likely be butterflied away and Jewish Scientists like Einstein would probably stay behind in the new Socialist Germany) and just nukes London to secure an armistice where they'd control most of Eurasia.

Stalin is still in power and the Anti-Comintern alliance has the combined scientific might of Britain and the US onside, and it's still Hitler we're talking about here even with the differences in ideology on top of the fact that Germany goes through Civil War before the rise of the Worker's Republic makes me think there are still plenty of intelligentsia who are going to be bugging out of the Reich

 

[LostInNewDelhi]

nukes London

But would the Reds really do the British working class that dirty? I feel like they'd pick somewhere like East Anglia, it's out of the way and a Tory heartland to boot, shows they're willing to consider their targets carefully.

Also, if the Reds do get the Bomb first, will the Americans be able to steal it as effectively as it was stolen from them? Communism is a better fifth-column recruitment system than... mild non-fascist American conservatism. It just seems like it would be harder for America to really call out to the Red's Theodore Halls and Klaus Fuchses and propel them to do something as risky as crossing the Comintern.

 

[GDIS Pathe]

Also, if the Reds do get the Bomb first, will the Americans be able to steal it as effectively as it was stolen from them? Communism is a better fifth-column recruitment system than... mild non-fascist American conservatism. It just seems like it would be harder for America to really call out to the Red's Theodore Halls and Klaus Fuchses and propel them to do something as risky as crossing the Comintern.

It's not like the Yanks and the Brits won't have their own programs ticking along Tube Alloys and Manehatten was a primarily Anglo-American effort after all likely bolstered by refugees fleeing either Hitler's authoritarianism or civil war. As for espionage historically MI5 and later the OSS wasn't particularly enthusiastic in hunting for Soviet spies following Barbossa something I doubt either the Comintern or the Anglo-American Alliance will make the mistake of doing ITTL

 

[Nyvis]

But would the Reds really do the British working class that dirty? I feel like they'd pick somewhere like East Anglia, it's out of the way and a Tory heartland to boot, shows they're willing to consider their targets carefully.

Also, if the Reds do get the Bomb first, will the Americans be able to steal it as effectively as it was stolen from them? Communism is a better fifth-column recruitment system than... mild non-fascist American conservatism. It just seems like it would be harder for America to really call out to the Red's Theodore Halls and Klaus Fuchses and propel them to do something as risky as crossing the Comintern.

Also, the comintern was historically much better at exploiting social angles in the intelligence department, with the US mostly catching up thanks to technological advantage.

As for the bomb, probably aim at a military/naval base?

 

[currylambchop]

But would the Reds really do the British working class that dirty? I feel like they'd pick somewhere like East Anglia, it's out of the way and a Tory heartland to boot, shows they're willing to consider their targets carefully.

Also, if the Reds do get the Bomb first, will the Americans be able to steal it as effectively as it was stolen from them? Communism is a better fifth-column recruitment system than... mild non-fascist American conservatism. It just seems like it would be harder for America to really call out to the Red's Theodore Halls and Klaus Fuchses and propel them to do something as risky as crossing the Comintern.

Yeah, you're right, they'd probably nuke a place that doesn't cause needless deaths.
Though the Americans would probably be quite close to developing nukes themselves. Albeit without the intellectual resources they had in our time, they'd probably get there eventually through domestic research.

 

[Youngmarshall]

Yeah, you're right, they'd probably nuke a place that doesn't cause needless deaths.
Though the Americans would probably be quite close to developing nukes themselves. Albeit without the intellectual resources they had in our time, they'd probably get there eventually through domestic research.

I'm unsure about the idea that Hitler and Stalin care hugely about needless deaths.

 

[currylambchop]

I'm unsure about the idea that Hitler and Stalin care hugely about needless deaths.

Stalin, maybe doesnt. But Hitler ITTL is much less evil than the Hitler IOTL, he's a pseudo-anarchist. So he would probably care more abot people's lives