An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[Stark]

Fair, but this isn't OTL. Cultural development is extremely different and nationalism is still an uncertain beast at least two centuries away. "Full independent" is likely never going to happen based on the style of empire B444 has led towards. High autonomy sure but a federal empire would absolutely have a unified foreign policy.

I certainly hope you're right, but I doubt future Egyptians (and Sicilians, Carthagians, etc.) will be happy serving as a economic satellite of Rome. Basileus has already stated that current economic relation suits Rome just fine, but Egyptians are less pleased that they are being used as a captive market and resource (grain) extraction colony.

Once industrialisation comes Despotates will inevitably want to develop their own industrial base. If they're integral Roman territories that's fine, more income to tax and increase in warmaking potential. If they are semi-independent they are competition.

Therefore, in my opinion federal empire in USA/current German mold - great, federal empire in interwar Commonwealth mold - less great.

 

[Evilprodigy]

I certainly hope you're right, but I doubt future Egyptians (and Sicilians, Carthagians, etc.) will be happy serving as a economic satellite of Rome. Basileus has already stated that current economic relation suits Rome just fine, but Egyptians are less pleased that they are being used as a captive market and resource (grain) extraction colony.

Once industrialisation comes Despotates will inevitably want to develop their own industrial base. If they're integral Roman territories that's fine, more income to tax and increase in warmaking potential. If they are semi-independent they are competition.

Therefore, in my opinion federal empire in USA/current German mold - great, federal empire in interwar Commonwealth mold - less great.

I think something you probably need to keep in mind is that you're looking at it from the perspective of a political leader that wants to make their country great. A Muhammad Ali, for example, to keep with the Egypt comparison. However B444 has been pretty good about showing human failings and the common humanity of political leaders. Egypt has operated as a plantation for as long as civilization has existed, with systems entirely to the benefit of the ruler and, to a lesser extent, ruling class. High levels of state control over agriculture and land ownership are the order of the day. So long as this system serves its role to the ruling class, who will get rich and fat off of the current system, why would they wish to shake the boat and potentially disrupt that relationship with Rhome and their own internal harmony through industrialization? It is a regressive attitude but one we see even today in 2020 from resource-rich countries (especially dictatorships) like Venezuela, Brunei, the Gulf States, South Africa, and the Congo but who lack economic diversification. Controlling the single source of wealth becomes more important than improving the country in order to maintain the lifestyle of a ruling class. Countries with diversified economies or ones that rely on imports normally don't suffer this sort of Dutch disease that over-emphasizes one revenue making source to the betterment of a small ruling class.

I'm not saying Egypt can't industrialize or get friction with Rhome as it tries to compete for economic growth but the circumstances that would lead to that development are not certain to appear especially once the Suez Canal is built and Rhoman attention for trade shifts away from the Nile Delta, which brings with it the loss of associated industries for the Canal of the Pharaohs that diversifies Egypt's trade sector and runs right through its heart.

 

[Stark]

I think something you probably need to keep in mind is that you're looking at it from the perspective of a political leader that wants to make their country great. A Muhammad Ali, for example, to keep with the Egypt comparison. However B444 has been pretty good about showing human failings and the common humanity of political leaders. Egypt has operated as a plantation for as long as civilization has existed, with systems entirely to the benefit of the ruler and, to a lesser extent, ruling class. High levels of state control over agriculture and land ownership are the order of the day. So long as this system serves its role to the ruling class, who will get rich and fat off of the current system, why would they wish to shake the boat and potentially disrupt that relationship with Rhome and their own internal harmony through industrialization? It is a regressive attitude but one we see even today in 2020 from resource-rich countries (especially dictatorships) like Venezuela, Brunei, the Gulf States, South Africa, and the Congo but who lack economic diversification. Controlling the single source of wealth becomes more important than improving the country in order to maintain the lifestyle of a ruling class. Countries with diversified economies or ones that rely on imports normally don't suffer this sort of Dutch disease that over-emphasizes one revenue making source to the betterment of a small ruling class.

I'm not saying Egypt can't industrialize or get friction with Rhome as it tries to compete for economic growth but the circumstances that would lead to that development are not certain to appear especially once the Suez Canal is built and Rhoman attention for trade shifts away from the Nile Delta, which brings with it the loss of associated industries for the Canal of the Pharaohs that diversifies Egypt's trade sector and runs right through its heart.

Yeah, you're right, that scenario is possible. However, I think it has two flaws:

1) Egypt is not especially resource rich today - grain will loose its value eventually and Egypt will need to either adapt or be piss poor.
2) If they do not industrialise and they do not have any valuable resource to be a extraction colony, their prime economic role in regard to Rome will be captive market. That might suit the elites, but invites images of poor Egyptians burning Roman flags and riots in front of Roman embassy. I don't believe Basileus intends that as the endgoal for the Rome and its federal despotates.

P.S. I would still like federal empire concept to suceed, but I think it needs to be a tighter federation to be plausible.

 

[Evilprodigy]

Yeah, you're right, that scenario is possible. However, I think it has two flaws:

1) Egypt is not especially resource rich today - grain will loose its value eventually and Egypt will need to either adapt or be piss poor.
2) If they do not industrialise and they do not have any valuable resource to be a extraction colony, their prime economic role in regard to Rome will be captive market. That might suit the elites, but invites images of poor Egyptians burning Roman flags and riots in front of Roman embassy. I don't believe Basileus intends that as the endgoal for the Rome and its federal despotates.

P.S. I would still like federal empire concept to suceed, but I think it needs to be a tighter federation to be plausible.

Grain is not the only thing that grows well in Egypt. Cotton, Sugarcane, Flax, and other cashcrops or specialty produce like citrus and olives grow well. Modern Egypt doesn't even grow enough grain to support itself, since most of the land is given over to Cotton production. It is not that difficult to, if grain prices fall, switch over to more valuable crops and just buy food imported from somewhere else like Scythia. This fundamentally doesn't change the social dynamic of Egypt to favour industrialization and Egypt being a cotton plantation would be fantastic for Rhome to feed an industrial textile economy.

 

[Frame]

Will we ever get an update from the perspective of my boy Leo Kalamaros aka Napoleon?

 

[Aristomenes]

Will we ever get an update from the perspective of my boy Leo Kalamaros aka Napoleon?

Not Kalamaros, Kalomeros (Greek translation of "Bonaparte").

 

[Frame]

Ah thanks i was wondering if i spelled that right lol.

On another note do the Nile Germans face any discrimination because of hard feelings towards Germans due to the war of Rhoman succession?

 

[Cryostorm]

Ah thanks i was wondering if i spelled that right lol.

On another note do the Nile Germans face any discrimination because of hard feelings towards Germans due to the war of Rhoman succession?

Probably not in Egypt, no Germans rampaging there, but they probably should put any Danubian vacation plans on hold.

 

[CV12Hornet]

I'm curious about Japan, it has been more or less united now? Was that by the Christians? What about that bit in Hokkaido?

Japan was united by the christians but i believe they have a somewhat lose grip on the less christian areas in the north. Idk whats going on in Hokkaido tho

OTL Hokkaido was inhabited by the Ainu, who were independent until a local Japanese daimyo was awarded suzerainty over the island. It was always kind of loose, though, and said Daimyo was, in true feudal fashion, not very closely tied to the central government until the Meiji period.

Presumably the dynamic holds ITTL and there's no reason for it not to.

 

[Arrix85]

Probably not in Egypt, no Germans rampaging there, but they probably should put any Danubian vacation plans on hold.

Now I'm curious about their accent and the evolution of their language.

 

[Coyote_Waits]

OTL Hokkaido was inhabited by the Ainu, who were independent until a local Japanese daimyo was awarded suzerainty over the island. It was always kind of loose, though, and said Daimyo was, in true feudal fashion, not very closely tied to the central government until the Meiji period.

Presumably the dynamic holds ITTL and there's no reason for it not to.

I'm hoping that in this TL the Ainu can survive on Hokkaido long term

 

[Cryostorm]

I'm hoping that in this TL the Ainu can survive on Hokkaido long term

Probably unlikely as independent, not if Japan is centralizing and staying open and modernized from the seventeenth century. But they may take a page from the Rhomans and allow the Ainu to have a native Daimyo in charge.

 

[Frame]

This is very unlikely but perhaps some Korean pirates could take over and Install the Ainu as a ruling class to keep the Japanese down and a somewhat dominant korean/ainu culture could dominate Hokkaido. Its definitely a reach though

 

[Frame]

Oh yeah also is Slovakia still a Vassal of Hungary or has it been incorporated directly?

 

[DracoLazarus]

Oh yeah also is Slovakia still a Vassal of Hungary or has it been incorporated directly?

The Duchy of Nitra ? It's still part of the Kingdom of Hungary.

 

[floppy_seal99]

This is very unlikely but perhaps some Korean pirates could take over and Install the Ainu as a ruling class to keep the Japanese down and a somewhat dominant korean/ainu culture could dominate Hokkaido. Its definitely a reach though

We’re probably getting a Japanese Daimyo, to be honest, but I gotta love seeing ATL Koreans doing some of the only four or five things our ethnic group can do well—study, shoot people, sail, and drink our asses off lmao. You know, cause they’re pirates.

and because pirates are toxic assholes, this is probably how they’d react to a joint Roman-Japanese delegation telling them to politely GTFO:

“Neh, Ilbon hindungi? Yogiseo mo haeyo? Yah, jugulae? Jinjja bahbo ya. Sul jom jusaeyo.”
(Hey, white Japanese guys, what are you doing here? You wanna die? You’re fucking idiots. Get me my booze.)

“I have no idea what this means but you guys are squatting on Imperial soil.”

“The Emperor in Fuyuki or wherever those Westaboo fucks stuck the capital can eat yeot, Pirate Joseon is BEST JOSEON*! You think you can just swamp us in numbers?Our ships are literally crewed by more Kims than you have Tagma soldiers in a 2000-mile radius of here. AND THEY’RE ALL DOCTORS AND LAWYERS TOO!”

########

But really, crack aside, stop me if you’ve heard this one before:
-A once sophisticated and powerful empire (Macedonian Rome, Nara Period Japan) is beset by warlords on every side.
-One of these warlords, from a far flung region rich with foreign contacts (Nicaea and Shimazu) topples the decadent or self-destructive regime.
-This warlord and his descendants turn their newly strengthened realm into a bright bastion of Orthodox Christianity on the eastern fringe of their cultural continuity (Rome is one ass-end of Western Christendom whilst Mexico is the other; Japan is the easternmost polity of the greater Sinosphere)

B444 has very clearly set up Japan as the Oriental counterpart to Rome. And, he’s setting up the Triunes as the most powerful enemy of Rome in the long run. Probably.

Therefore, it only really makes sense for Korea to make money moves on the open seas if we end up becoming East Asia’s Triunes. I have no fucking idea what to call it (Empire of Greater Balhae?Daeasadal? Gojoseon Deux: Gochu Boogaloo?) What would this look like?
-Koreans are probably taking the role of the English, seeing as it’s our scoundrels ripping Hokkaido away from Japan and into our bosoms. We’ve also probably got the largest naval assets of the main ethnic groups I’d want to see in this federation. As a result, Koreans wouldn’t really feel much of an attachment to the rest of mainland Asia, with most trade and exploration ties going SE and S of the peninsula.
-Manchus or a similar Tungusic people who ITTL must view themselves as either Mohe or the direct ethnic and spiritual successors of the Mohe, are the French. The bolded part is critical, as the Jurchen OTL called themselves Balhae’s successors, and viewing a unification with Korea as the return of that multiethnic state is the only chance of this federation working. Not all of them will be living in their eponymous polity, as China and [X] Khaganate will have bits and pieces. They’ll probably provide the bulk of the terrestrial manpower. These NeoMohe will also be the most deeply connected with the rest of mainland Asia. Expect a resurgence or genesis of Tungusic high culture and literature, which would probably be built here from scratch but would also be really cool to see.
-Ainu are, of course the Irish. Yes, that’s right. Ainu townies fresh out of Canalave or Pastoria Cities are gonna wreck your shit if they get even a whiff of Yankees-or-Lakers-equivalent fan gear coming off of you. There might need to be a bit of digging done in order to construct an Ulster Cycle-like epic for Hokkaido, though. Sitonai day parade?
-This federation must be Catholic or Protestant. It will by no means be Orthodox—the Koreans and Ainu will not jump or even crawl at the chance to share a majority religion with the Japanese. Ever heard of a Shinto ajumma? Catholic Koreans will help complete the Triune analogy better as well. The only mainland East Asian populations I see going Orthodox will be former and current steppe tribes. Siberian people as well perhaps.
-Korean will need to become an important commercial language. Not sure how. It’s not like the mineable resources on the peninsula right now are of much use in the 1600s. There’s a SHITLOAD of wood though, and plenty of Manchu coal. Neo-Balhae will succeed well should they choose to hop into the IndRev One bandwagon. If the Triunes do well during IndRev 2, the “you stupid child go be [insert white collar in lab/practice/office]” section of Korean society should help this chimera keep afloat as well, given how shit like Uranium is pretty abundant up nork.
-side effects include total extinction of Korean tiger populations, massive price hikes for ginseng as it can no longer grow in peace in the DMZ, Kaesong being used for non-industrial things with more northern cities taking that brunt, greater strides in (silk hemp or cotton) ballistic armor since more guns mean cheapass rulers get to skimp on metal armor even more than in OTL, etc.

*bonus points for Korean!Hokkaido probably being the northernmost territory ruled by Koreans

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

@floppy_seal99 im curious as to what your thoughts are on a Korean-Led Korea-Manchu-North China polity. Mostly focused on the Yellow sea and the Hebei, Shanxi, Shandong and Liaoning provinces coastally, with the Manchu dominating further inland. Would that be viable? Or would there need to be a move to push to the Yangtze for security that then leads to Han dominance?

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

We’re probably getting a Japanese Daimyo, to be honest, but I gotta love seeing ATL Koreans doing some of the only four or five things our ethnic group can do well—study, shoot people, sail, and drink our asses off lmao. You know, cause they’re pirates.

and because pirates are toxic assholes, this is probably how they’d react to a joint Roman-Japanese delegation telling them to politely GTFO:

“Neh, Ilbon hindungi? Yogiseo mo haeyo? Yah, jugulae? Jinjja bahbo ya. Sul jom jusaeyo.”
(Hey, white Japanese guys, what are you doing here? You wanna die? You’re fucking idiots. Get me my booze.)

“I have no idea what this means but you guys are squatting on Imperial soil.”

“The Emperor in Fuyuki or wherever those Westaboo fucks stuck the capital can eat yeot, Pirate Joseon is BEST JOSEON*! You think you can just swamp us in numbers?Our ships are literally crewed by more Kims than you have Tagma soldiers in a 2000-mile radius of here. AND THEY’RE ALL DOCTORS AND LAWYERS TOO!”

########

But really, crack aside, stop me if you’ve heard this one before:
-A once sophisticated and powerful empire (Macedonian Rome, Nara Period Japan) is beset by warlords on every side.
-One of these warlords, from a far flung region rich with foreign contacts (Nicaea and Shimazu) topples the decadent or self-destructive regime.
-This warlord and his descendants turn their newly strengthened realm into a bright bastion of Orthodox Christianity on the eastern fringe of their cultural continuity (Rome is one ass-end of Western Christendom whilst Mexico is the other; Japan is the easternmost polity of the greater Sinosphere)

B444 has very clearly set up Japan as the Oriental counterpart to Rome. And, he’s setting up the Triunes as the most powerful enemy of Rome in the long run. Probably.

Therefore, it only really makes sense for Korea to make money moves on the open seas if we end up becoming East Asia’s Triunes. I have no fucking idea what to call it (Empire of Greater Balhae?Daeasadal? Gojoseon Deux: Gochu Boogaloo?) What would this look like?
-Koreans are probably taking the role of the English, seeing as it’s our scoundrels ripping Hokkaido away from Japan and into our bosoms. We’ve also probably got the largest naval assets of the main ethnic groups I’d want to see in this federation. As a result, Koreans wouldn’t really feel much of an attachment to the rest of mainland Asia, with most trade and exploration ties going SE and S of the peninsula.
-Manchus or a similar Tungusic people who ITTL must view themselves as either Mohe or the direct ethnic and spiritual successors of the Mohe, are the French. The bolded part is critical, as the Jurchen OTL called themselves Balhae’s successors, and viewing a unification with Korea as the return of that multiethnic state is the only chance of this federation working. Not all of them will be living in their eponymous polity, as China and [X] Khaganate will have bits and pieces. They’ll probably provide the bulk of the terrestrial manpower. These NeoMohe will also be the most deeply connected with the rest of mainland Asia. Expect a resurgence or genesis of Tungusic high culture and literature, which would probably be built here from scratch but would also be really cool to see.
-Ainu are, of course the Irish. Yes, that’s right. Ainu townies fresh out of Canalave or Pastoria Cities are gonna wreck your shit if they get even a whiff of Yankees-or-Lakers-equivalent fan gear coming off of you. There might need to be a bit of digging done in order to construct an Ulster Cycle-like epic for Hokkaido, though. Sitonai day parade?
-This federation must be Catholic or Protestant. It will by no means be Orthodox—the Koreans and Ainu will not jump or even crawl at the chance to share a majority religion with the Japanese. Ever heard of a Shinto ajumma? Catholic Koreans will help complete the Triune analogy better as well. The only mainland East Asian populations I see going Orthodox will be former and current steppe tribes. Siberian people as well perhaps.
-Korean will need to become an important commercial language. Not sure how. It’s not like the mineable resources on the peninsula right now are of much use in the 1600s. There’s a SHITLOAD of wood though, and plenty of Manchu coal. Neo-Balhae will succeed well should they choose to hop into the IndRev One bandwagon. If the Triunes do well during IndRev 2, the “you stupid child go be [insert white collar in lab/practice/office]” section of Korean society should help this chimera keep afloat as well, given how shit like Uranium is pretty abundant up nork.
-side effects include total extinction of Korean tiger populations, massive price hikes for ginseng as it can no longer grow in peace in the DMZ, Kaesong being used for non-industrial things with more northern cities taking that brunt, greater strides in (silk hemp or cotton) ballistic armor since more guns mean cheapass rulers get to skimp on metal armor even more than in OTL, etc.

*bonus points for Korean!Hokkaido probably being the northernmost territory ruled by Koreans

The trinues will never and will not be able to dominate Asia. They are far too late to make significant headway's, and their attitude towards the color of races will only serve to weaken their position in Asia. Right now they're able to make some success in Asia due to the fact that they have better technology, strong administration, money, and in a position where local powers (Muslim since the triunes don't mind allying themselves against fellow Christians) need their help against encroaching European powers.

They may have a deep stronghold in India but honestly I don't see it lasting long. Overtime I believe they'll lose them or if not outright lose them, lose so much land that it basically makes their holding only to the coastal city (Much like what happened to Rome). If you saw the last updates about the Triunes, this will only severely weaken their hold and power in the east. Once the inevitable civil war begins you'll see them losing their position to various powers wanting to weaken the Triunes.

I Honestly don't think the Triunes will be able to be a long term rival of Rome. If anything its China and whoever is the strongest and secure in the Americas. They have too many advantages in Europe with their broad network of alliances (thanks to Demetrios III) and strong flexible borders (Most of their defenses have alot of mountains and are connected near rivers and the Mediterranean sea).

And guessing from an upcoming Great War? I think the triunes may have been weakened enough that they needed an alliance of various other states to fight the other enemy (Rome, Orthodox states, Vija, Japan, and Mexico ?). This is only a speculation though hoping that one day I will see that post.

 

[The Anglo-Dutch Union]

How different is the english language? i assume it's a bit more latenised due to the union between the english and the french.
On another note did the anglo-french colonise anything? and how balanced is the union?

 

[Evilprodigy]

Nicaea

I'll stop you here for that incredibly broad analogy.

Nicaea is anything but 'far-flung' it's right next door to Constantinople. It might as well be Osaka given your comparison to Japan.

Your entire comparison is pretty unfounded too. B444 isn't just going to make the planet full of copy paste countries with different ethnic groups and names. Korea, Japan, Manchuria, Mongolia, China, and all East Asia is going to have its own history unique to them. B444 is not so much of a hack to force entire regions of the world to fit the same cookie cutter mold. Almost all of your comparisons are superficial and broad too so as to be applicable to so many polities in history as to not be able to mark actual trends.

I have to ask why you have these assumptions at all, what history of TTL Japan puts them as anything at all like the Rhomans? Orthodoxy is just a faith and doesn't mean behaviour will change significantly nor will geopolitics. Japan is still ethnically homogeneous in a way the Rhoman Heartland isn't. It's an island, unlike Rhome who has to constantly fight at their borders. Your strange Korea-Triune comparison has similar problems as there is no strong geographic barrier between them and the rest of Asia comparable to the English Channel. All you're describing is a land empire that has a coast, nothing special, and one with far more borders to defend than the Triunes, especially against nomads rather than settled states of somewhat similar technical and social development. This is one big country, not the three countries one king situation that we see in the Triunes forced upon them by land of contiguous territory. East Asia doesn't even really have the same concept of feudalism and personal unions as Europe so without radically changing the fundamental culture of the entire Sinosphere (which won't happen in the 17th century) it's impossible to get something analogous to the Triunes out of Korea.