Fictional inventory of modern airforces

Can I tempt anyone in to producing a drawing of a B747 as a C5 alternative?

Taken off the net . . . will these do.

The Boeing 747 based C-X entry

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Regards filers.
 
Dassault's a Go-Go Part II

Carrying from the earlier Dassault a Go Go post and continuing in the same timeline as before. This concerns the Ouragan and the Mystere series of aircraft becoming standard European combat aircraft instead of the F-84 & F-86 series.

BELGUIM

120 x Ouragan
120 x Mystere I/II
120 x Mystere IV
120 x Super Mystere

All license built by SABCA instead of 444 x F-84 in OTL

GERMANY

240 x Ouragan
240 x Mystere i/II
240 x Mystere IV
240 x Super Mystere

All license built instead of 783 x F-84 & 163 x F-86 in OTL

GREECE

72 x Ouragan
72 x Mystere I/II
72 x Mystere IV
72 x Super Mystere

All license built by FIAT instead of 382 F-84 & F-86 in OTL

ITALY

160 x Ouragan
160 x Mystere I/II
160 x Mystere IV
160 x Super Mystere

All license built by FIAT instead of 525+ F-84 & 155 x F-86 in OTL

NETHERLANDS

120 x Ouragan
120 x Mystere I/II
120 x Mystere IV
120 x Super Mystere

All license built by FOKKER instead of 377 x F-84 & 63 x F-86 in OTL

PORTUGAL

48 x Ouragan
48 x Mystere I/II
48 x Mystere IV
48 x Super Mystere

All built in France instead of 125 x F-84 & 65 x F-86 in OTL

SPAIN

60 x Ouragan
60 x Mystere I/II
60 x Mystere IV
60 x Super Mystere

All built in France instead of 270 x F-86 in OTL

TURKEY

160 x Ouragan
160 x Mystere I/II
160 x Mystere IV
160 x Super Mystere

All built in France instead of 483 x F-84 & 206 x F-100 in OTL

Four types instead of one for a small air force like that of Belgium? Madness.
 
Four types instead of one for a small air force like that of Belgium? Madness.
That's why they did the smart thing and got on the F-104G program. For a little airforce? Being able to offer 60 mission capable strike aircraft into the battle plan of 2 AFCENT should certainly indicate a commitment under the NATO manifest?
The F-104 tac-nuke capability gave WarPac eternal indigestion during the times of tension,
They had no means to counter it at the time. Their subsequent efforts (MiG 23 in it's variants) were still incapable of dealing with a 104 on a "one way" mission.
There was a large degree of "gallows humor" amongst the pilots flying/training for these sorties.
"No one gets out alive" is the common narrative...there is NO DEEPER TRUTH than the assessment provided by these guys.i
If it all goes sideways? We all (to a large degree) die...
 
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Boeing was already busy enough (on the Commercial level), Lockmart? Not so much.
Hence the reason for the C-5A

The 747 series was originally designed from the Boeing's C-X application not the other way around.

Without the C-X program they'd be no 747.
 

Pangur

Donor
The 747 series was originally designed from the Boeing's C-X application not the other way around.

Without the C-X program they'd be no 747.
Which is why I raised the query. That query has a follow on, namely a civilian airline based on the C5 i.e. swap there fates around
 
The Indian Air Force

The HAL (Hindustan Aeronautic Ltd) HF-24 'Marut' program

Originally designed by Kurt Tank and powered by two license built Bristol Orpheus the prototype first flew in 1961. Knowing the limitations at the time for this engine Kurt Tank quickly built an entirely different second prototype powered by a single Rolls Royce Avon which both the Indian and UK govt's had come to agreement to license built.

This change of engine instillation allowed the second prototype to soon travel at Mach 2 on it's next few flights and easily get to 50,000 ft with reheat and have performance comparable with the Dassault Mirage III.

An order was placed for 480 'Marut' F-1's in 1966 with deliveries starting in 1967 and continuing through to 1980.

As the manufacture of the first 'Marut's' got under way in 1966, Kurt Tank at the request of the Indian Gov't and HAL designed another version of the 'Marut' which was more orientated to the attack/strike role but keeping the same performance as the 'Marut' F-1. With a different nose profile to accommodate a radar from the UK's Jaguar which was being developed for both the French and UK air forces, the prototype for this model first flew in early 1968.

After successful series of test flights the 'Marut' FGR-1 was ordered in late 1968 and had performance comparable with the Dassault Mirage V.

An order for 480 'Marut' FGR's was made in late 1968 to be delivered from 1969 until 1983. This allows the Indian Air Force to virtually use one type of aircraft.

The 'Sea Marut'

In 1970 HAL, again with Kurt Tank's guidance was asked if it was possible to navalize the 'Marut' for carrier operations from the deck of the Indian Navy's "Majestic" class carrier as it's air group was becoming completely obsolete. The Dassault Etendard then Super Etendard aircraft was originally nominated in this role but it was felt that it was better to see a completely home built aircraft fly from the ship.

In 1971, a pre-production 'Sea Marut' with a heavier, stronger landing gear and arrestor hook made several landings and take off's from the carrier INS Vikrant throughout the year.

An order for 60 'Sea Marut's' was placed in 1972 to entirely re-equip the INS Vikrant's air group plus reserve Sqn's. These would be delivered throught the 1970's. INS Vikrant is never converted to a STOL carrier with SHAR's.

It was expected that all the Air Force aircraft would be replaced by a new design again of home grown origin sometime in the 80's based on a Dornier design called the ND-102

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This was supposed to happen for the Philippine Air Force:

F/A-18 Hornet and F-16 Fighting Falcons by the late 90s. Never happened because of the 1998 Asian financial crisis. At that time, PAF used F-5s which retired in 2005. It would be in 2015 when the PAF received T/A-50 Fighting Eagles from South Korea.

JAS Grippen was considered in 2009 but has yet to push through.
 
Which is why I raised the query. That query has a follow on, namely a civilian airline based on the C5 i.e. swap there fates around

Right, I've been mulling over this for a while and can't see how a C-5 based airliner can come to fruition as Lockheed already have the L-1011 in the pipeline

Here's an idea.

Boeing wins the C-X program and as a consequence never goes on to develop the 747. Lockheed although disappointed carries on with it's L-1011 program.

Douglas & Lockheed both launch their respective aircraft.

As a consequence of there being no 747, both companies have a virtual duopoly of this class of aircraft until the 1990's when the 777 & A330/340 are launched.

747's produced until 1994 (introduction of 777) per model.

168 747 100's plus 16 100B's. 29 SR's. 45 SP's, 393 200's, 81 300's, 282 400's

Keeping to the 60/40 sales split between the DC-10 & L-1011 as in otl you get an extra 559 DC-10's and 373 L-1011's.
 

Pangur

Donor
The North American Aerospace Co hit the sweet spot!

1950's

The F-108 Rapier gets chosen instead of the CONVAIR F-106 Delta Dagger

377 produced plus a further 1,000 to replace the CONVAIR F-102 Delta Dart

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Flushed with their success they then go on to win the F-X contract in the late 60's with their NA-335 proposal which in the OTL was won by McDonnell's F-15 Eagle.

750 were originally built in the late 70's but ultimately 1,500 were as multi-role aircraft for the USAF replacing the F-4 Phantom & F-111's

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Much obliged!
any foreign sales?
 
Fairy Delta 2 Multi-role fighter.

Marcel Bloch (Dassault Aviation) "If it were not for the clumsy way you tackle things in Britain . . . you could've made the Mirage yourself!"

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Based on a timeline were the Fairy Delta II was developed for the RAF instead of the BAC (EE) Lightning during the infamous Sandy's Review and sold around the world instead of the Mirage III/5 series. France due to pride still goes on to develop their Mirage series.

Time of sales 1960 to 1980

ARGENTINA

82 purchased instead of 42 Mirage III/5 & 40 A-4 in OTL

These were used with some success in the Falklands War of 1982

AUSTRALIA

116 license produced instead of 116 Mirage III in OTL.

BELGIUM

422 license produced by SABCA instead of 53 x AVRO CF-100, 256 x Hawker Hunter, 106 x Mirage 5, 113 x F-104 in OTL.

BRAZIL

74 purchased instead of 32 x Mirage 5 & 42 x F-5 in OTL

CANADA

351 license produced instead of 238 x F-104 & 132 x F-101 in OTL

CHILE

17 purchased instead 17 x Mirage 5 in OTL

COLOMBIA

18 purchased instead of 18 x Mirage 5 in OTL

DENMARK

53 purchased (built by SABCA) instead of 53 x F-104 in OTL

ECUADOR

34 purchased instead of 12 x Mirage 5 & 22 x BAC Strikemaster in OTL

EGYPT

118 purchased instead of 82 x Mirage 5 & 36 x F-4 in OTL

ETHIOPIA

26 purchased instead of 26 x F-5 in OTL

GERMANY

1266 license produced by VFW/DORNIER instead of 916 x F-104 & 350 x G-91 in OTL.

GREECE

281 license produced by AeritaliaI instead of 40 x Mirage F-1, 60 x F-4, 60 x A-7, 51 x F-104 & 70 F-5 in OTL

INDIA

50 purchased of which a further 544 licensed produced by HAL instead of 262 x Hawker Hunter & 332 x MiG 21 in OTL

ISRAEL

50 purchased of which a further 564 licensed built by IAI instead of 206 x F-4, 191 Mirage 5 & 217 A-4's in OTL

IRAN

352 purchased instead of 225 x F-4 & 127 x F-5 in OTL

IRAQ

12 purchased instead of 12 x Hawker Hunter in OTL

ITALY

591 license built by Aeritalia instead of 360 x F-14 & 231 x G-91 in OTL

JORDAN

76 purchased instead of 36 x Hawker Hunter & 36 x F-104 in OTL

KUWAIT

93 purchased instead of 35 x Mirage F-1, 14 x BAC Lightning, 12 x BAC Strikemaster, 36 x A-4 in OTL

LEBANON

12 purchased instead of 12 x Mirage 5 in OTL

LIBYA

150 purchased instead of 110 x Mirage 5 & 40 Mirage F-1 in OTL

MALAYSIA

60 purchased instead of 40 x A-4 & 18 F-5 in OTL

NETHERLANDS

241 licensed produced by FOKKER instead of 45 x F-104 & 105 x F-5 in OTL

NEW ZEALAND

36 purchased and license built in Australia instead of 14 x A-4 & 22 x BAC Strikemaster in OTL

NORWAY

153 purchased and license produced by FOKKER instead of 45 x F-104 & 108 x F-5 in OTL

OMAN

60 purchased instead of 24 x BAC Strikemaster & 32 x Hawker Hunter in OTL

PAKISTAN

76 purchased instead of 52 x Mirage 5 & 24 x F-104 in OTL

PERU

65 purchased instead of 48 x Mirage 5 & 17 Hawker Hunter in OTL

PHILIPPINES

36 purchased instead of 36 x F-5 in OTL

SAUDIA ARABIA

214 purchased instead of 40 x BAC Lightning, 45 x BAC Strikemaster & 129 x F-5 in OTL

SINGAPORE

212 purchased instead of 16 x BAC Strikemaster, 46 x Hawker Hunter & 150 x A-4 in OTL

SOUTH AFRICA

58 purchased as kits to be assembled locally instead of 58 x Mirage 5 in OTL

SPAIN

52 license built by CASA instead of 22 x F-104 & 30 x Mirage 5

SWITZERLAND

260 license built instead of 61 x Mirage 5, 98 x F-5 & 100 x Hawker Hunter in OTL

TURKEY

254 purchased instead of 52 x F-104 & to replace 206 F-100 in OTL

VENEZUELA

54 purchased instead of 26 x Mirage 5 & 18 x F-5 in OTL

UAE

31 purchased instead of 31 x Mirage 5 in OTL

UNITED KINGDOM

600 built instead of 280 x BAC Lightning and replacing Javelin, Hunter in OTL (No F-4, Jaguar & Buccaneer ordered)

ZAIRE

12 purchased instead of 12 x Mirage in OTL

An update will follow regarding of the Fairy Delta III, a twin engine version that went on sale from 1982 onwards.
 
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Fairy Delta 2 Multi-role fighter.

Marcel Bloch (Dassault Aviation) "If it were not for the clumsy way you tackle things in Britain . . . you could've made the Mirage yourself!"

View attachment 544227View attachment 544230View attachment 544232


Based on a timeline were the Fairy Delta II was developed for the RAF instead of the BAC (EE) Lightning during the infamous Sandy's Review and sold around the world instead of the Mirage III/5 series. France due to pride still goes on to develop their Mirage series.

Time of sales 1960 to 1980

ARGENTINA

82 purchased instead of 42 Mirage III/5 & 40 A-4 in OTL

These were used with some success in the Falklands War of 1982

AUSTRALIA

116 license produced instead of 116 Mirage III in OTL.

BELGIUM

422 license produced by SABCA instead of 53 x AVRO CF-100, 256 x Hawker Hunter, 106 x Mirage 5, 113 x F-104 in OTL.

BRAZIL

74 purchased instead of 32 x Mirage 5 & 42 x F-5 in OTL

CANADA

351 license produced instead of 238 x F-104 & 132 x F-101 in OTL

CHILE

17 purchased instead 17 x Mirage 5 in OTL

COLOMBIA

18 purchased instead of 18 x Mirage 5 in OTL

DENMARK

53 purchased (built by SABCA) instead of 53 x F-104 in OTL

ECUADOR

34 purchased instead of 12 x Mirage 5 & 22 x BAC Strikemaster in OTL

EGYPT

118 purchased instead of 82 x Mirage 5 & 36 x F-4 in OTL

ETHIOPIA

26 purchased instead of 26 x F-5 in OTL

GERMANY

1266 license produced by VFW/DORNIER instead of 916 x F-104 & 350 x G-91 in OTL.

GREECE

281 license produced by AeritaliaI instead of 40 x Mirage F-1, 60 x F-4, 60 x A-7, 51 x F-104 & 70 F-5 in OTL

INDIA

50 purchased of which a further 544 licensed produced by HAL instead of 262 x Hawker Hunter & 332 x MiG 21 in OTL

ISRAEL

50 purchased of which a further 564 licensed built by IAI instead of 206 x F-4, 191 Mirage 5 & 217 A-4's in OTL

IRAN

352 purchased instead of 225 x F-4 & 127 x F-5 in OTL

IRAQ

12 purchased instead of 12 x Hawker Hunter in OTL

ITALY

591 license built by Aeritalia instead of 360 x F-14 & 231 x G-91 in OTL

JORDAN

76 purchased instead of 36 x Hawker Hunter & 36 x F-104 in OTL

KUWAIT

93 purchased instead of 35 x Mirage F-1, 14 x BAC Lightning, 12 x BAC Strikemaster, 36 x A-4 in OTL

LEBANON

12 purchased instead of 12 x Mirage 5 in OTL

LIBYA

150 purchased instead of 110 x Mirage 5 & 40 Mirage F-1 in OTL

MALAYSIA

60 purchased instead of 40 x A-4 & 18 F-5 in OTL

NETHERLANDS

241 licensed produced by FOKKER instead of 45 x F-104 & 105 x F-5 in OTL

NEW ZEALAND

36 purchased and license built in Australia instead of 14 x A-4 & 22 x BAC Strikemaster in OTL

NORWAY

153 purchased and license produced by FOKKER instead of 45 x F-104 & 108 x F-5 in OTL

OMAN

60 purchased instead of 24 x BAC Strikemaster & 32 x Hawker Hunter in OTL

PAKISTAN

76 purchased instead of 52 x Mirage 5 & 24 x F-104 in OTL

PERU

65 purchased instead of 48 x Mirage 5 & 17 Hawker Hunter in OTL

PHILIPPINES

36 purchased instead of 36 x F-5 in OTL

SAUDIA ARABIA

214 purchased instead of 40 x BAC Lightning, 45 x BAC Strikemaster & 129 x F-5 in OTL

SINGAPORE

212 purchased instead of 16 x BAC Strikemaster, 46 x Hawker Hunter & 150 x A-4 in OTL

SOUTH AFRICA

58 purchased as kits to be assembled locally instead of 58 x Mirage 5 in OTL

SPAIN

52 license built by CASA instead of 22 x F-104 & 30 x Mirage 5

SWITZERLAND

260 license built instead of 61 x Mirage 5, 98 x F-5 & 100 x Hawker Hunter in OTL

TURKEY

254 purchased instead of 52 x F-104 & to replace 206 F-100 in OTL

VENEZUELA

54 purchased instead of 26 x Mirage 5 & 18 x F-5 in OTL

UAE

31 purchased instead of 31 x Mirage 5 in OTL

UNITED KINGDOM

600 built instead of 280 x BAC Lightning and replacing Javelin, Hunter in OTL (No F-4, Jaguar & Buccaneer ordered)

ZAIRE

12 purchased instead of 12 x Mirage in OTL

An update will follow regarding of the Fairy Delta III, a twin engine version that went on sale from 1982 onwards.
Who the hell makes all of these though?

Even taking out the licence built ones there are far to many for Fairey (or probably the whole British aviation industry) to build.
 
BAC (Fairy) Delta III

At the start of the 1970's, Fairy now absorbed into BAC (British Aircraft Corporation) decided to develop their Delta II series further into a larger, more capable twin engine version for the 1980's and beyond. This aircraft would be similar to the Dassault Mirage 4000 but have greater mult-role performance. As a consequence the PANAVIA MRCA (Tornado) was discontinued.

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Again as with the Delta II, France went alone to develop their Mirage 2000

Sales from 1980 to 2000 onwards.

AUSTRALIA

96 license built instead of 72 x F-18 (post 1980) & 24 F-18 Super Hornets (post 2000) in OTL

BAHRAIN

22 purchased (plus another 10 in 2017) instead of 32 x F-16 in OTL

BELGIUM

160 license built by SABCA instead of 160 x F-16 in OTL

BRAZIL

12 purchased instead of 12 x Mirage 2000 in OTL

CANADA

138 license built instead of 138 x F-18 in OTL

DENMARK

76 license built by FOKKER instead of 76 x F-16 in OTL

ECUADOR

18 purchased instead of 18 x Mirage F-1 in OTL

EGYPT

20 purchased instead of 20 x Mirage 2000 in OTL. More orders weren't forthcoming as the Egyptian government expressed a wish to have US built aircraft following the Camp David Agreement

FINLAND

64 license built by VALMET instead of 64 x F-16 in OTL

GERMANY

357 license built by DASA instead of 357 x Panavia Tornado in OTL

GREECE

174 license built by Aeritalia instead of 44 x Mirage 2000 & 130 x F-16 in OTL

INDIA

500 license built by HAL to replace half of IAF's front line strength (non Fairy Delta II aircraft) instead of 50 x Mirage 2000 in OTL

INDONESIA

12 purchased instead of 12 x F-16 in OTL

ISRAEL

This aircraft was offered to the IAF with a license agreement but due to the choosing of the McD F-15 in 1977 before the start of Delta III production in 1982 this was declined. Further sales also had to be abandoned when the IAF chose the F-16.

IRAQ

98 purchased instead of 98 x Mirage F-1

ITALY

100 license produced by Aeritalia instead of 100 x Panavia Tornado in OTL

JORDAN

62 purchased instead of 62 vx F-16 in OTL

KUWAIT

40 purchased instead of 40 x F-18 in OTL

LIBYA

36 purchased instead of 36 x Mirage F-1

MALAYSIA

8 purchased imnstead of 8 x F-18 in OTL

MOROCCO

50 purchased instead of 50 x Mirage F-1

NETHERLANDS

216 license built by FOKKER instead of 216 x F-16 in OTL

NORWAY

76 license built by SABCA instead of 76 x F-16 in OTL

OMAN

12 purchased (with a repeat order in 2014) instead of 24 x F-16 on OTL

PAKISTAN

72 purchased instead of 72 x F-16 in OTL

PERU

12 purchased instead of 12 x Mirage 2000 in OTL

PORTUGAL

24 purchased instead of 24 x F-16 in OTL

QATAR

91 purchased instead of 14 x Mirage F-1 & 77 x F-16 in OTL

SAUDIA ARABIA

212 purchased instead of 72 x Panavia Tornado & 139 x F-15 in OTL

SINGAPORE

112 purchased instead of 40 x F-16 & 72 x F-15 in OTL

SOUTH AFRICA

100 license built instead of 40 x Mirage F-1 (100 originally planned) in OTL

A license production agreement was offered but was turned down due to the F-16 being chosen

SPAIN

157 license produced by CASA instead 72 x F-18, 12 x Mirage F-1 (ex Qatar) & 73 x Mirage F-1 in OTL

SWITERLAND

36 purchased instead of F-18 in OTL

TAIWAN

60 purchased instead of 60 x Mirage 2000 in OTL. Further offers of orders were refused as the F-16 was chosen instead.

TURKEY

240 license built (another 30 in 2017) instead of 270 x F-16 in OTL

UAE

67 purchased instead of 67 x Mirage 2000 in OTL

UNITED KINGDOM

640 built to replace non Harrier fleet instead of 393 x Tornado GR-1, F-3's in OTL.
 
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IRISH SELF DEFENSE AIR FORCE (ISDF/AF) - a timeline

Set up in 1924 the ISDF/AF is the air defense air of the Irish Armed Forces. It was quickly accepted that like other neutral nations such as Sweden and Switzerland a strong air force would be needed to enforce the republics neutrality. With this in mind a large expansion of the original Irish Air Corp would take place with a onus on getting aircraft from non-aligned countries if possible.

You don't think this is a bit too ambicious? I don't think Ireland has both the economy or the population to suport this force. Switzerland had about 100 fighters in 1939, and that was with them smack in what by then everyone knew was going to be a war zone, and today has less than 80 fighters. And Switzerland has roughly twice the population of Ireland...
 
Based on a timeline were the Fairy Delta II was developed for the RAF instead of the BAC (EE) Lightning during the infamous Sandy's Review and sold around the world instead of the Mirage III/5 series. France due to pride still goes on to develop their Mirage series.
It's more likely that the RAF would buy the twin-engine EE Lightning AND the single-engine Fairey Delta 2.

The latter would have been built instead of the (IIRC) 160 Hunter F6s that were rebuilt to FGA9 and FR10 standard.
 
Time of sales 1960 to 1980
BELGIUM

422 license produced by SABCA instead of 53 x AVRO CF-100, 256 x Hawker Hunter, 106 x Mirage 5, 113 x F-104 in OTL.
That's going to be difficult because the Belgian CF-100s and Hunters were built in the 1950s.

Edit - Some of the other countries include Hunters that were purchased in the 1950s too.
 
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