Warships that should never been built?

McPherson

Banned
Honestly, she kind of was. After Jutland, she should have been cancelled and given a full redesign to fully incorporate the lesson learned from the battle

From June to September 1916 is a lot to ask for Jutland lessons learned.

a. strengthen deck and gunhouse hood armor.
b. change the shell and propellant handling procedure.
c. change the propellant.
d. Fire Beatty and that fool he had for a flag secretary.
e. work on intra fleet communications.
f. design new fusing for existing shells.
g. revise destroyer tactics.

Most of that immediate urgent stuff requires at least a year. Some of it; ( c., d., g,. is never accomplished or needs postwar to implement.) And most of it (structural, as gun-house and deck armor, and secondaries reworked and a torpedo blister) is inapplicable to Hood once the drawings are finalized and she is on the weighs in September 1916.
 
Last edited:
And most of it (structural, as gun-house and deck armor, and secondaries rewoeked and a torpedo blister) is inapplicable to Hood once the drawings are finalized and she is on the weighs in September 1916.

I always thought the J3 concept was the chance to do Hood 'right'....

03.jpg


I do like the raised after turret, like in Vittorio Veneto...

Regards,
 
From June to September 1916 is a lot to ask for Jutland lessons learned.

a. strengthen deck and gunhouse hood armor.
b. change the shell and propellant handling procedure.
c. change the propellant.
d. Fire Beatty and that fool he had for a flag secretary.
e. work on intra fleet communications.
f. design new fusing for existing shells.
g. revise destroyer tactics.

Most of that immediate urgent stuff requires at least a year. Some of it; ( c., d., g,. is never accomplished or needs postwar to implement.) And most of it (structural, as gun-house and deck armor, and secondaries reworked and a torpedo blister) is inapplicable to Hood once the drawings are finalized and she is on the weighs in September 1916.
But perhaps the order should have been put on hold for a year while the lessons of Jutland are used to redesign the Hood?
 
But perhaps the order should have been put on hold for a year while the lessons of Jutland are used to redesign the Hood?
Alas the need to counter the Mackensens which the as far RN at the time knew were well underway in construction and in any case wouldn't be suspended till later prevented the RN from applying the lessons of Jutland properly to least Hood and maybe the other Admrials, mind you without the Mackensens and the Ersatz Yorck classes being built the RN wouldn't have made the Admirals to being with
 
Last edited:

McPherson

Banned
I always thought the J3 concept was the chance to do Hood 'right'....

03.jpg


I do like the raised after turret, like in Vittorio Veneto...

Regards,

I would have to see compartmentation layout in detail in order to intelligently begin any comment. I also simply do not know enough about this design. From the simplified drawing, it looks like a trinary compartmentation scheme down to the bilge spaces. See my comment about torpedoes and what happens if the compartmentation channels torpedo burst effects laterally and UP into the ship.

But perhaps the order should have been put on hold for a year while the lessons of Jutland are used to redesign the Hood?

Possibly acceptable. Depends on what the Admiralty knows about the High Seas Fleet threat. (See what follows.)
Alas the need to counter the Mackensens which the RN at the time were well underway in construction and wouldn't be suspended till later prevented the RN from applying the lessons of Jutland properly to least Hood and maybe the other Admrials, mind you without the Mackensens and the Ersatz Yorck classes being built the RN wouldn't have made the Admirals to be[gin] with.

I kind of agree. See my previous comments about Vanguard. You have to make a best guess on the contemporary knowledge. (That is put your mindset into what the people of 1916 thought, not what we know.).
 
Last edited:
It would be more accurate to say that the overwhelming majority of Canada's shipyards at the start of WWII where either too small or lacked the experience to make destroyers not to mention the supporting Canadian industry as related to warship construction really wasn't up to the task either and it would have taken would have far too long to correct this when Canada needed more surface escorts in its fleet yesterday so Corvette spam ot was done instead
 
Last edited:
It would be more accurate to say that the overwhelming majority of Canada's shipyards at the start of WWII where either too small or lacked the experience to make destroyers not to mention the supporting Canadian industry as related to warship construction really wasn't up to the task either and it would have taken would have far too long to correct this when Canada needed more surface escorts in its fleet yesterday so Corvette spam ot was done instead

Operating is not the same as building.
 
It would be more accurate to say that the overwhelming majority of Canada's shipyards at the start of WWII where either too small or lacked the experience to make destroyers not to mention the supporting Canadian industry as related to warship construction really wasn't up to the task either and it would have taken would have far too long to correct this when Canada needed more surface escorts in its fleet yesterday so Corvette spam ot was done instead
Yes, at the start of the war Canada's shipyards weren't prepared to build destroyers (though by mid-war Halifax Shipyards was making Tribal class DDs) but that didn't stop Canada from ordering from UK shipyards.

But yes, at least at first, the RCN embraced the Flower Class as a panic interim surface escort.
 

McPherson

Banned
It would be more accurate to say that the overwhelming majority of Canada's shipyards at the start of WWII where either too small or lacked the experience to make destroyers not to mention the supporting Canadian industry as related to warship construction really wasn't up to the task either and it would have taken would have far too long to correct this when Canada needed more surface escorts in its fleet yesterday so Corvette spam ot was done instead
Operating is not the same as building.

Learning is an expensive process.


Tongue in cheek and no criticism implied at anyone (Except maybe Kockums as a Danish Navy joke puts it.).

a. Options to go with a successful submarine designer were available in BOTH cases and in both cases it turned out that the designer in question had to be called in to fix everything boloed on those boats, adding enormously to the program expenses for both nations.

b. Barbel does not look so bad now, does it?

^1 Trust the Swedes to design your ship? Do you know how to swim? (Danish navy joke.).
 
Yes, at the start of the war Canada's shipyards weren't prepared to build destroyers (though by mid-war Halifax Shipyards was making Tribal class DDs) but that didn't stop Canada from ordering from UK shipyards.

But yes, at least at first, the RCN embraced the Flower Class as a panic interim surface escort.
To be fair Halifax was pretty much the largest shipyard in Canada and having one yard capable of building DDs isn't a massive industrial feat for a (albeit it is an important milestone)and quite frankly I'm curious about how much of the more complex equipment like guns and machinery was actually made in Canada and not shipped in from the UK
 
Another class I'd nominate that should have never been built is the Sapain class of light fleet carriers which quite frankly should have either been built as Baltimore class cruisers or not all given the Essex spam in service by the time they were finished
 
(though by mid-war Halifax Shipyards was making Tribal class DDs)

Yes and the result was a major industrial fustercluck in Canadian Naval shipbuilding history.

"The propulsion plant required for a Tribal was also unavailable from Britain. And the Canadian order for Micmac's machinery was a first in class effort for the designated manufacturer. Turbine engines of the size and complexity required by the Tribals never before had been built in Canada. Further, at the time Micmac's engines were ordered, the primary contractor, John Inglis and Company, was itself in considerable administrative difficulty arising from the increased demands of wartime procurement. The serious impact of this situation may be grasped when one considers that Micmac's hull was completed in Halifax after 32 months but the ship had to wait another full year for the delivery of her machinery from Inglis in Toronto before her fitting out could commence."

Canada had major issues procuring the specific quality of steel they needed, local industry was nowhere near enough and they only managed to make the ships due to modifying American produced steel for such purposes. As stated above, the machinery was the largest hurdle alongside the hilariously outdated way the British made warships.

"Whatever the rationale for the selection of Halifax as the main contractor, what is clear is that there were delays and from the very beginning. The main reason, at the outset at least, was the continued skepticism of the British and their inability or unwillingness to supply the necessary trained personnel, and even the required vessel plans. This was not because of any ulterior motives, as some members of the Nova Scotia legislature later claimed. Many of the plans and working drawings were received, after repeated requests, beginning in October 1940, but a complete set had still not arrived by early 1941 and certain detailed blueprints, such as those of the capstan, windless gear and other auxiliary equipment, were still unavailable in June 1942. The reason for this was the difference in Canadian and British building practices due largely to the former's inexperience. British firms, with a large number of craftsmen and traditional procedures, tended to be rather like old cottage industries and worked with minimal prints and drawings. These yards would not need, for example, specifications for a fire-control system for a destroyer, as they had built them before and thus had the previous plans, changes and, most important, experience to go on. By contrast Canadian (and American) practice was to use thousands of detailed prints because of a lesser number of highly skilled tradesmen. In addition, many of the British standard items were not available in The Construction of Tribal Class Destroyers in Canada/ North America or had different specifications. The result was that the British had to find or even specifically draft plans for the Canadian yards, a long process considering the number of drawings involved' This difficulty was later solved to a certain degree by the establishment of a central drawing office, with the help of German and Milne, in mid-1942. It is unclear to what extent the lack of drawings delayed the Tribal program but all hull drawings at least were received by 1941."

Canada could produce guns relatively fine, iirc they even made replacement 6" guns for Richelieu's secondary battery at one point.

To be fair Halifax was pretty much the largest shipyard in Canada and having one yard capable of building DDs isn't a massive industrial feat(albeit it is an important milestone)and quite frankly I'm curious about how much of the more complex equipment like guns and machinery was actually made in Canada and not shipped in from the UK

Halifax was not the largest shipyard I believe, nor was it anywhere near the most experienced. Vickers Montreal was much older, larger, better positioned and better equipped.

"Originally, Canadian Vickers was a front runner. This was not surprising as Vickers was without question the best-equipped yard in Canada at the time, with five covered building berths (the only ones so protected from the weather in the country); a modern floating drydock; connections to Montreal's excellent rail communications; and a relatively good supply of skilled labour. In addition, it was the only shipyard which also had the facilities to build turbines, engines and boilers of all types on site. Moreover, British Vickers, the parent company, was one of the original firms involved in the development and production of the Tribals. The yard had been sold to Canadian interests in 1926, but still retained its British-built equipment and, most important, many of its British-trained personnel."

It was almost 100% politics in choosing Halifax over Vickers. Some valid complaints about Vickers was to provide standby employment when repair work slackened, Halifax, unlike yards in central Canada, could operate year-round, as it was not affected by the winter freeze-up of the St. Lawrence. Canada's Minister of Defence for Naval Services at the time was Angus L. Macdonald who was both a Nova Scotia native and a former Premier of that province, which we would later return to after the war. It's not to see the wheels behind the scene turning.

There's also the entire argument that the Tribal's weren't a good choice for Canada and that they were just chosen for old disgraced Canadian sailors to finally get some power but that's another rant for another day.
 
Last edited:
Alas the need to counter the Mackensens which the as far RN at the time knew were well underway in construction and in any case wouldn't be suspended till later prevented the RN from applying the lessons of Jutland properly to least Hood and maybe the other Admrials, mind you without the Mackensens and the Ersatz Yorck classes being built the RN wouldn't have made the Admirals to being with
For a post-war RN with HSF existing, I assume the other three Admirals are built but likely to a different design taking advantage of lessons. That does assume more urgency given perceived or actual completion of Mackensen/Yorck(s). On paper I think the Yorck design is closer to equivalent, the Admirals being a transition to fast BB, and even as flawed as Hood is argued to be, I think it is superior to Mackensen and everything but the L20 design. A side question that may be relevant here in that ATL, do the 4 Admirals suck the funding from the G3? Or if built do they steer the priority to the N3, since we now have our fast van? I toy with that but it really crushes any hope for a WNT analog to cap the Tillman race! Oddly putting the Hood and her sisters on this thread.
 
To be fair Halifax was pretty much the largest shipyard in Canada and having one yard capable of building DDs isn't a massive industrial feat
Considering that Canada didn't make any steel warships pre-war, scaling up to large destroyer production in under four years is quite the feat.

Additionally, there were no plants in all of North America capable of making the high-tensile steel required for a Tribal class, so Canada had to not only develop a ship building industry that worked in more than just structural steel, but its national steel industry needed to leap-frog forward to get on the same bleeding edge as the UK's national steel industry. Again, that's quite the feat.***

and quite frankly I'm curious about how much of the more complex equipment like guns and machinery was actually made in Canada and not shipped in from the UK
from what I've found so far it was all Canadian sourced. The engines were made by the John Inglis and Company, and the Canadian built Tribals used domestically sourced 4" guns.

If Canada was just importing the pieces from the UK then it wouldn't have taken 32 months for the first one to be built (As Canada had long since had the facilities to make even larger civilian vessels).

edit: I stand corrected on this point, see bellow
 
Last edited:
Considering that Canada didn't make any steel warships pre-war, scaling up to large destroyer production in under four years is quite the feat.

Additionally, there were no plants in all of North America capable of making the high-tensile steel required for a Tribal class, so Canada had to not only develop a ship building industry that worked in more than just structural steel, but its national steel industry needed to leap-frog forward to get on the same bleeding edge as the UK's national steel industry. Again, that's quite the feat.

from what I've found so far it was all Canadian sourced. The engines were made by the John Inglis and Company, and the Canadian built Tribals used domestically sourced 4" guns.

If Canada was just importing the pieces from the UK then it wouldn't have taken 32 months for the first one to be built (As Canada had long since had the facilities to make even larger civilian vessels).

"The problem, aside from the skilled labour shortage, was a lack of the high-tensile "D" quality steel needed for Tribal construction, a steel not yet produced domestically. The mild steel used in the first building programme of corvettes and Bangors was of a relatively simple type, easily produced in Canadian mills. High performance vessels like the Tribals required a very specific type of high-grade steel because the long, narrow hulls were subject to enormous and complex stresses. "D" quality steel was strong enough to resist such pressure, yet also light enough to allow for no sacrifice in speed, a factor of vital importance to destroyer construction. Again, Britain was unable to help. The Canadian steel industry was in the process of developing such capacity, but did not yet possess the necessary plant.' Early in the war there had been an opportunity to develop it by refurbishing DOSCO's plate mill at Sydney, NS, but whether for financial reasons, as Howe claimed, or a "regional bias," as E.R. Forbes later argued, the opportunity was lost." A detailed study by Munitions and Supply in October 1940 noted the potential of the Sydney plate mill which, although it had not been in operation since 1919, had an impressive capacity of 50,000 tons per year on a single shift. The proposal to refurbish the plant was rejected by Howe because of the great cost, the already considerable investment in the "big 3" Ontario steel mills (Algoma, Dofasco and Stelco) and the lack of domestic demand.' The inaction was doubly unfortunate, due to the obvious advantages that would have accrued both in ease of transportation and the fact that Halifax Shipyards was a wholly-owned subsidiary of DOSCO. Later, by 1942, DOSCO's plate mill was refurbished and did produce the necessary plate for the Tribals, but this was done too late for the first two vessels; Nova Scotia steel was used only on the second pair of destroyers."

"With no domestic source of supply, and with British supply problematic, the obvious place to look was to the United States. The US seemed a natural source of supply, as in the prewar period one-third of steel used in Canada originated there." The problem was that the Admiralty "D" quality steel needed for the Tribals had very specific properties and chemical composition. American steel plants were, of course, producing high-tensile steel for their own naval building programme, but its composition differed slightly from Admiralty specifications and they were unwilling, not surprisingly, to alter production for the relatively small amount of metal required for two or even four destroyers, as their own programme dealt in exponentially larger numbers. These problems were overcome eventually, and US-grade steel was adapted for the Tribals by minor design changes and extra stiffening and used on the first pair of vessels. This need for redesign resulted in yet further delays. As a result, the keels for the first two Tribals were not laid until 20 May 1942, almost one year after the contract had been awarded, and nearly a year and a half since the project had informally begun."


That is not correct. American plants were fully capable of producing Admiralty style "D" quality steel especially with the info the Canadians got however, it was not in their overall interest to tweak their plants for such a small batch of foreign designs. It turned out in the end that the Canadians didn't really need it for the Tribal's itself. It was useful later on but again it doesn't change the boondoggle of a procurement itself. A lot of hassle would have been avoided had the ships been produced in an actual suitable yard with less of a reliance on the British.
 
"The problem, aside from the skilled labour shortage, was a lack of the high-tensile "D" quality steel needed for Tribal construction, a steel not yet produced domestically. The mild steel used in the first building programme of corvettes and Bangors was of a relatively simple type, easily produced in Canadian mills. High performance vessels like the Tribals required a very specific type of high-grade steel because the long, narrow hulls were subject to enormous and complex stresses. "D" quality steel was strong enough to resist such pressure, yet also light enough to allow for no sacrifice in speed, a factor of vital importance to destroyer construction. Again, Britain was unable to help. The Canadian steel industry was in the process of developing such capacity, but did not yet possess the necessary plant.' Early in the war there had been an opportunity to develop it by refurbishing DOSCO's plate mill at Sydney, NS, but whether for financial reasons, as Howe claimed, or a "regional bias," as E.R. Forbes later argued, the opportunity was lost." A detailed study by Munitions and Supply in October 1940 noted the potential of the Sydney plate mill which, although it had not been in operation since 1919, had an impressive capacity of 50,000 tons per year on a single shift. The proposal to refurbish the plant was rejected by Howe because of the great cost, the already considerable investment in the "big 3" Ontario steel mills (Algoma, Dofasco and Stelco) and the lack of domestic demand.' The inaction was doubly unfortunate, due to the obvious advantages that would have accrued both in ease of transportation and the fact that Halifax Shipyards was a wholly-owned subsidiary of DOSCO. Later, by 1942, DOSCO's plate mill was refurbished and did produce the necessary plate for the Tribals, but this was done too late for the first two vessels; Nova Scotia steel was used only on the second pair of destroyers."

"With no domestic source of supply, and with British supply problematic, the obvious place to look was to the United States. The US seemed a natural source of supply, as in the prewar period one-third of steel used in Canada originated there." The problem was that the Admiralty "D" quality steel needed for the Tribals had very specific properties and chemical composition. American steel plants were, of course, producing high-tensile steel for their own naval building programme, but its composition differed slightly from Admiralty specifications and they were unwilling, not surprisingly, to alter production for the relatively small amount of metal required for two or even four destroyers, as their own programme dealt in exponentially larger numbers. These problems were overcome eventually, and US-grade steel was adapted for the Tribals by minor design changes and extra stiffening and used on the first pair of vessels. This need for redesign resulted in yet further delays. As a result, the keels for the first two Tribals were not laid until 20 May 1942, almost one year after the contract had been awarded, and nearly a year and a half since the project had informally begun."


That is not correct. American plants were fully capable of producing Admiralty style "D" quality steel especially with the info the Canadians got however, it was not in their overall interest to tweak their plants for such a small batch of foreign designs. It turned out in the end that the Canadians didn't really need it for the Tribal's itself. It was useful later on but again it doesn't change the boondoggle of a procurement itself. A lot of hassle would have been avoided had the ships been produced in an actual suitable yard with less of a reliance on the British.
Oh, thanks for the catch.
 
There's also the entire argument that the Tribal's weren't a good choice for Canada and that they were just chosen for old disgraced Canadian sailors to finally get some power but that's another rant for another day.
What should Canada have procured instead? And would it change much if King (or who ever else is PM) saw the war clouds on the horizon and started laying the ground work for the mobilization of the Canadian economy a couple years in advance of WWII?
 
Top