"Where Are We Going This Time": The Golden Age of Science Fiction

What should happen with the season summary updates?

  • Continue as is (might delay other updates)

    Votes: 6 75.0%
  • Release them later, as supplementary material

    Votes: 2 25.0%
  • Cut out the OTL bits, only say what you've changed (might only be a temporary solution)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Stop them completely

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    8
  • Poll closed .
I don't know if you're planning on bringing her back, but if the Rani returns anytime soon then I have a casting idea for her, if Madeline Khan doesn't come back: Michelle Yeoh.

She'd work well as seen with her portrayal of mirror universe Georgiou. I just don't know if she's doing English Language cinema or anything yet at this point ITTL. This is assuming you don't have plans for her.
 
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Chapter XLIX: "I Don't Mean to Burst Your Bubble..."

Timelordtoe

Monthly Donor
Part II, Chapter XLIX: "I Don't Mean To Burst Your Bubble..."

“It really felt like the whole comics industry was dying at that time. I wasn’t actually too involved with the back end at that time, but they were still paying me, so I made sure I knew what was going on. Sure, we managed to avoid a lot of the issues DC were having, but that didn’t stop us from having our own issues. Between Panini and Ron [Perelman], we had enough problems ourself. I think that the industry had a closer brush with death there than most people give it credit for.”​
- Stan Lee, speaking about the 1990s comics speculation bubble, and its collapse. [1]


Marvel
Marvel had been racking up steady sales in the comics market, which were helped by the success of the film Wolverine and the X-Men. However, the 2099 line was beginning to falter, and sales were decreasing, and many of the other experimental comics lines were not performing as expected. Coupled with the loss of many of the artists to Image Comics, Marvel was not in a great position. [2]

Much like DC, Marvel was dipping its toe into the film industry, with its X-Men film series. The first film had been a great success, and plans for the sequel, The X-Men and Ms Marvel, were well underway, with a 1995 release planned, which would likely see it competing with DC’s Batman films once more. But this was not the only Marvel film being made. [3]

Fantastic Four was not a film that was intended for release. In fact, the only reason it was made was so that Bernd Eichinger could retain the rights to produce a film containing the characters. It had been made with a deliberately low budget, and was originally not going to be shown to audiences. However, the success of Wolverine and the X-Men led to its release, due to pressure from fans. It was, by all accounts, an unmitigated disaster. The film flopped, making back a tiny amount of its budget, and within two weeks, it had been pulled from most cinemas. [4]

The X-Men would see further success as an animated series based on the Excalibur comics began airing in late 1992, to critical acclaim, as it entertained while tackling heavier subjects. It would, by the end of 1994, be joined by Iron Man, Fantastic Four and Spider-Man animated series. [5]


Film failure would go on to affect Marvel in more ways than one. Marvel Entertainment Group owned Panini as a subsidiary. The vast majority of Panini’s profits came off of the back of Disney releases, and a series of disappointing Disney films meant that that their profits dropped. The trading card subsidiary Fleer’s profits were also harmed by the 1994 MLB strike.

But perhaps the most important event for Marvel in this era was the death of Ronald Perelman, the owner of MEG’s parent company MacAndrew’s and Forbes. For many years, Perelman had been calling the shots from a financial perspective. In June 1994, Ronald Perelman’s car was struck by a drunk driver, killing him. His long time associate, Barry Schwartz, took over as chairman, but would do very little with MEG, largely letting them govern themselves. [6]


But despite all of this, Marvel was still in a better place than DC. [7]



DC Comics
The speculator bubble burst hit DC far harder than it had Marvel. DC had produced many “event” comics, involving the death of Superman, or Batman being crippled. While these led to slight increases in sales, as some fans’ interest was piqued, and many others bought them in the hope that they would increase in value over the years, sales soon dropped off, and many of the large changes were reverted.

Another way that DC had intended to increase sales was by self-distribution from 1994 onwards. The two main distributors, Diamond and Capital city, would retaliate by striking exclusive deals with DC’s competitors. In 1995, Diamond Comics would secure the exclusive rights to distribute Marvel comics. DC’s attempt to increase sales by owning their own distributor, by buying Heroes World, would backfire, as sales declined even further. [8]


But DC’s films would continue to enjoy success. Though there were some clashes between director Tim Burton and executives at Warner Bros., Tim Burton would be able to direct the Batman film he wanted. The film, Batman Continues, would see Michael Keaton’s Batman facing off against Billy Dee Williams’ Two-Face and Robin Williams’ Riddler. Hype would build for the film, and to see who would win the second round of Marvel vs. DC films. [9]

As with Marvel, DC would see a successful foray into animation. The show Batman: The Animated Series, would be based loosely on the Burton films, sharing the fame gothic and film noir influenced aesthetic. It would also share the darker tone of Burton’s films. Tim Curry would return as the Joker, while the role of Batman was taken by Kevin Conroy.


DC’s continuing overall commercial downturn would be worrying to many executives, and a new plan was devised. They decided that given the success of the Burton Batman films, that they would begin working on films based on other famous comics characters, most notably Superman and Green Lantern. Whether the Superman film was to continue the Christopher Reeve era would not be decided by the end of 1994, but one thing was clear: DC needed to make a big and successful move if it wanted to avoid further financial difficulties. [10]


[1] I'm having difficulty in finding out who was in charge of MEG at the time, so I've used Stan Lee here as he was still, technically, employed by them.
[2] As established many updates ago, Marvel is managing to avoid a lot of the speculation bubble's effects.
[3] The next Marvel and DC films deserve their own update, which will be very early in Part III.
[4] There was really no way of saving this film, so I made its effects on Marvel worse. This film will hurt the trust in Marvel's TV and film arm.
[5] I have a really big soft spot for Excalibur, so I've had Marvel cash in on the "brit-chic" that is sort of present at the moment. The team will be mainly non-Brits, per OTL, just based there mostly.
[6] God, I hate to do this, but I saw no other way of getting him out of the picture. I've butterflied a couple of the things that bankrupted Marvel in OTL, but really Perelman needed to go.
[7] I will admit that I'm a bigger Marvel fan than a DC one, but I don't want DC to be holding an "idiot ball". It really surprises me how many bad long-term decisions were made for Marvel in OTL though.
[8] So, DC goes down the self-publishing route, not Marvel. The full effects of this won't be seen just yet, but they're pretty major.
[9] We get the Batman Forever Tim Burton wanted.
[10] The comics films industry will be very different from about 1995 on. Also, the comics industry will be quite different from 1995 on. A lot of groundwork has been laid here.
 
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Will either Marvel or DC (or both) be building up film/TV universes the way they did OTL?
DC could have had a earlier TV universe if they did spin offs from Smallville.
They considered a Bruce Wayne series, early on.
They did a Birds of Prey Series.
Latter they considered a Gotham PD series based on the Comic of the same name.
There was serious talk about a earlier Green Arrow spin off
They did a Aquaman Pilot "Mercy Reef".

Their was talk about a Green Lantern Series in the same style as Smallville with Hal not in a uniform, but it never got beyond talk.
Same with series about Starman and and Nightwing.
And then there was talk about a Justice League Series using the Heroes introduced in the Smallville series
 
Nothing that could end up in a DCEU or even the CW Arrowverse? What about an MCU?
The only possible addition to the CW Arrowverse that I run across was there was talk about a Nightwing series at a couple of points .

The MCU is pretty much a no go in a Live Action Universe till Agent of Shield in 2013 and Daredevil on Netflix in 2015.
There were references to event in the Marvel Movies in both and early on there was some talk about crossovers with each other early on that never happen.
We could have seen Netflix's Daredevil appear on Agent of Shield but it never happen.

The Incredible Hulk when it did it TV movies was mean to have a number of Crossovers. We got Thor and Daredevil.
The Third Movie was suppose to feature Black Widow and take place at Stark Tech.
There were some rumors that it was suppose to also feature a version of Iron Man.
Because the ratings were not great on the movies, they chose to not do the crossover and instead kill off the Hulk in the third movie.

There were some plans to make the Animated Universe that was airing on Fox into a more extended universe.
There was serious talk about at least three more Marvel Animated Series .
Thor , Daredevil and Captain American were all considered as series but none got beyond talk.
The Failure of the Daredevil Movie doomed the possibility of a Animated Daredevil .
I have not been able to find out why Thor or Captain America never got beyond talk.
 
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Getting rid of Perelman is critical to saving Marvel just due to his extremely shady methods of raising money using shell companies.

If Marvel avoid the ToyBiz deal then I think you can keep them in a good place. That deal directly led to the bankruptcy, though not having them buy Heroes World will help a lot here!

Does X-Men: Excalibur replace the X-Men series we all know the theme tune of? I wonder who would have voiced Captain Britain and Meggan?

Sounds like DC is heading for a Crisis!
 
It appears that TTL is Bizzaro World to OTL when it comes to comic books. :p

DC at least has the advantage of being a subsidiary of Time Warner so they will not be filing for bankruptcy as Marvel did. However, I could see a large editorial shake-up at DC with some editors (notably Mike Carlin, who oversaw the Superman books during this period) fired or shuffled off to other titles. This could result in some interesting butterflies. I would suggest @Timelordtoe read up about Grant Morrison, Mark Waid, and others Superman 2000 proposal. Without Carlin, this proposal will likely see the light of day and possibly revitalize fan interest in the Man of Steel--though hopefully we will still get Morrison's run on JLA.

As for film, since James Cameron is attached to X-Men instead of Richard and Laura Donner, perhaps Warner Bros. can approach the Donners about producing a slate on (non-Batman) DC films. It would make sense. Superman '78 is still beloved by fans and perhaps WB believes that lightning could strike twice. I assume they have a good relationship with the Donners due to the successful Lethal Weapon series. This could have interesting ripples because Geoff Johns was Richard Donner's assistant in the late 90s. Instead of breaking into the comic books, Johns instead stays in film and perhaps some of his ideas appear on the silver screen instead. If the author wants to full reverse Marvel/DC in film Green Lantern could be the breakout film of a nascent DC film universe.

My personal wish list would be a GL film based on Emerald Dawn, the sequel based on Emerald Dawn II, and the third being a rough analogue of OTL's Sinestro Corps War, but I don't want to intrude on anyone's plans. :coldsweat:

Same with series about Starman and and Nightwing.
I could envision James Robinson's Starman as an HBO series.

I have not been able to find out why Thor or Captain America never got beyond talk.
I suspect Marvel's bankruptcy scrapped those plans. A Captain America series is definitely a possibility without Marvel filing for Chapter 11.
 
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If the author wants to full reverse Marvel/DC in film Green Lantern could be the breakout film of a nascent DC film universe.

My personal wish list would be a GL film based on Emerald Dawn, the sequel based on Emerald Dawn II, and the third being a rough analogue of OTL's Sinestro Corps War, but I don't want to intrude on anyone's plans. :coldsweat:
If we get too early, CGI is not up to the level that a movie can do Green Lantern at a affordable cost. T2 does CGI as early as 1991 but it also the most expensive film at the time with a budget of 102 Million.

My take on a Green Lantern trilogy. The Origin story make up the first Movie but it stay on earth. We see a Hal Jordan who struggles to use the ring.
Often things go wrong. But by the end , he defeats the Villain and avoids the Government.
The first movie ends with a couple of members of the Corp appearing and discovering that Abin Sur has given Hal the Ring.

The Second movie is basiclly the plot of Green Lantern First Flight with Hal under going training on Oa and then teaming up with Sinestro.
At first they get along but as Hal Discovers that Sinestro is more concerned about Order then Justice , he end up fighting against Sinestro as he tries to take over the Green Lantern Corp. The Movie ended with Sinestro defeated but he escapes to the Anti Matter Universe , The Last shot is Sinestro wtth the Yellow Ring.

The Third has the Corp seeking Sinestro and discovering that he has his own yellow ring Corp. Sinestro plans threaten Earth but the Guardians refuse to assist Hal in protecting Earth as that would endanger other planets. He does well enough against Sinestro that other members of the Corp decide to help him even through the Guardian have refused to let them help.
 
If we get too early, CGI is not up to the level that a movie can do Green Lantern at a affordable cost. T2 does CGI as early as 1991 but it also the most expensive film at the time with a budget of 102 Million.
I think CGI could catch up by 1999. One thing to consider is that Hal Jordan's ring constructs were always more simple than, let's say, Kyle Rayner's in the comics so they wouldn't necessarily be too intricate. If Warner Bros. wants a DC film before then I would say go for Superman for 1996 or 97. Again, bring Richard Donner on as producer, but hand the director duties to someone else (my personal suggestion would be Wolfgang Petersen.) As for the question of Christopher Reeve, I would suggest casting a younger actor and work with a blank slate as it has been nearly a decade since Superman IV. Hopefully Reeve doesn't suffer the same accident that paralyzed him OTL.

Another plus to this TL is that the Death of Superman's role in DC's near-collapse means that they won't want to adapt that story to film.
 

Timelordtoe

Monthly Donor
I don't know if you're planning on bringing her back, but if the Rani returns anytime soon then I have a casting idea for her, if Madeline Khan doesn't come back: Michelle Yeoh.

She'd work well as seen with her portrayal of mirror universe Georgiou. I just don't know if she's doing English Language cinema or anything yet at this point ITTL. This is assuming you don't have plans for her.
Her break into western media came thanks to Tomorrow Never Dies, but as I think is clear from some of the other updates, the Bond films will be quite different. I'll keep her in mind though. We haven't seen the last of a lot of recurring characters in Doctor Who.

There were a lot of comments about the comics update, and the future of the comics industry. I'll try to answer all the questions that have been raised here.

Will either Marvel or DC (or both) be building up film/TV universes the way they did OTL?
As I've said before, the film/TV comics world will be very different to what it was in OTL. There will be talks, as Marvel starts building up its animated shows universe, and DC makes plans for a somewhat connected film universe here in the 1990s. But we've not seen the end of the effects of the comics bubble bursting, and as @Ogrebear pointed out, DC may well be heading for a Crisis.

Getting rid of Perelman is critical to saving Marvel just due to his extremely shady methods of raising money using shell companies.

If Marvel avoid the ToyBiz deal then I think you can keep them in a good place. That deal directly led to the bankruptcy, though not having them buy Heroes World will help a lot here!

Does X-Men: Excalibur replace the X-Men series we all know the theme tune of? I wonder who would have voiced Captain Britain and Meggan?

Sounds like DC is heading for a Crisis!
I meant to mention this in the update, but yes, the ToyBiz deal didn't go through ITTL. Marvel has suffered a bit from the comics bubble bursting, but it's in a far more stable position financially. Right now, the main worry at Marvel is the uncertainty as to whether people will continue buying comics, and the fact that Perelman is dead, and nobody quite knows what his replacement will have in store.

Excalibur does replace the X-Men animated series from OTL. The justification for it is that they don't want to tread on the films toes, as the X-Men films adapt the comics more firectly than Burton's Batman films. I could see the theme from that show possibly sticking around as the theme for this new show though. As for who voices Captain Britain and Meggan, and the rest, I'd imagine that they use people who have experience in the voice acting industry, rather than names that will be recognisable. I'll go into this a little more in the next update, but animation and voice acting has taken a different route to OTL in the past couple of years in the timeline.

I won't give too much away in terms of my plans, but I will say that the future of the comics film/TV industry (there has to be a better name for that) isn't just a reversal of Marvel and DC's fates. From what many of you have been saying, I think that the path I go down will be a surprising one, and quite possibly a divisive one too. Time will tell. Anyway, next update is the Disney one, and it probably won't be a very long one, but again, I needed to lay down some groundwork sooner rather than later.
 
As for the question of Christopher Reeve, I would suggest casting a younger actor and work with a blank slate as it has been nearly a decade since Superman IV. Hopefully Reeve doesn't suffer the same accident that paralyzed him OTL.
If they go with a younger actor I could see Reeve cameoing as Pa Kent or Jor-El

TLL's X-Men films sound interesting. The use of Ms. Mavrel is an interesting move but makes sense since it most likely means bringing in Rouge and space stuff.
 
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Chapter L: "You Ain't Never Had a Friend Like Me"

Timelordtoe

Monthly Donor
Part II, Chapter L: "You Ain't Never Had a Friend Like Me"

“Really, the trouble all started in ‘94. Once the board of directors made me president, Roy [Disney] started his little war with us. It really didn’t help that our films were doing poorly at the box office. Sure, The Lion King was a success, but one or two successful films didn’t make up for all of our other failures.”​
- Jeffrey Katzenberg, on Disney during the mid-1990s.


The mid-1990s would bring trouble for Disney. While the late 80s and early 90s had seen Disney move from success to success, with revenues increasing every year. Under the leadership of Michael Eisner, Disney was making a series of major acquisitions of other companies, and saw a resurgence in traditionally animated films.


However, trouble began for Disney during the production of Aladdin. For the role of the Genie, the producers wanted comedian Robin Williams, with the animators having made a short test animation set to one of his comedy sets. Williams was interested, but aware that he was going to be the biggest name involved with the film, wanted to make sure that the film’s advertisements would not be based solely on his presence, and that his voice would not be used to sell merchandise.

Tentatively, Williams signed on after Disney agreed to his requests. At the time, Williams was also involved with another film, FernGully. Disney was keen for Williams to drop out of that project, and began actively working to hinder the development of that film, outbidding FernGully’s team for venues. Rather than making Williams stop his involvement with that film, it instead led to him drawing further away from Disney. It was also clear from early posters that Disney were going to take advantage of all of the loopholes of the contract, as the character of the Genie was made more prominent on early posters.

Williams had recorded many hours of lines by the time he dropped out of the project, not taking the pay for the project. For Disney, this was a major issue, as they had no second choice voice actor for the Genie. Soon after, they were able to hire Dan Castellana in Robin Williams’ place, and re-record the lines. However, Williams had made his reasons for leaving the project public, hurting the film’s reputation somewhat. [1]

Ultimately, the film was a financial success, though nowhere near the hit that Disney was hoping for. As 1992 saw profits drop again, it was clear that Disney needed a turnaround, and soon. It was hoped that 1994’s The Lion King could be that hit. Upon release, it was a big hit, as hoped, but there would be more trouble for Disney. [2]


1994 also saw the untimely death of its President, Frank Wells, in a helicopter accident. In his place, Michael Eisner, CEO, selected Jeffrey Katzenberg, to whom he had promised the position. Roy Disney, the last member of the family to stay involved with the company, was not happy with this appointment. In retaliation, he began actively working to remove Eisner from his position. [3]

Disney was, effectively, in the midst of a civil war. Unsurprisingly, this further hurt profits, as the company became more and more dependent on merchandise and the theme parks, rather than the film and television division. One major effect of this dispute would be that the planned acquisition of/merger with ABC would fall through.

It was clear that Disney was in trouble, and big changes were needed. [4]


[1] All OTL up until now. Here, the issues with Disney cause him to leave the project, forgoing his paycheck.
[2] Without Williams, the film will not be as successful as OTL. This has a few major effects, the big one being that animated films rely far less on bringing in big names, rather on the talent of their voice actors. The Lion King will be a bit different, but not too much.
[3] No Dreamworks as a result of this. Also, Disney media from here will be very different. Roy isn't going to try to actively sabotage the company, that would be self-defeating, but he will be causing trouble for Eisner's plans.
[4] The 1990s will be seen as a time that saw a major shakeup in popular culture ITTL.
 
I imagine Disney not buying ABC means there is no Disney channel(s) as we know them which will hurt the brand.

Weren’t the parks in serious need to regeneration in this period? Or am I misremembering something?
 
I imagine Disney not buying ABC means there is no Disney channel(s) as we know them which will hurt the brand.

Weren’t the parks in serious need to regeneration in this period? Or am I misremembering something?
A number of plans to upgrade stuff in the US parks were put on hold due to the problems with the Paris Park.
IIRC, the part of the parks that were hurt the most, was Tomorrow Land. Plans to update it for both Disney Land and Disney World were cancaled.
Also a number of the Corporations that sponsored Pavilions at EPCOT began to leave causing problems.
 
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