Germany follows the Goering stratgy in 1940 and 1941

[Cryhavoc101]

Another aspect was the irregular financial practices that 'Nazi' Germany had used to pay for the countries almost miraculous recovery from the dire situation it found itself in during the early 30s

The use of MEFO bills and other practices would soon 'come to a head' and cause German industry all sorts of financial problems had more peace 'broken out' instead of an advantageous, victorious and importantly rapid war.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Another aspect was the irregular financial practices that 'Nazi' Germany had used to pay for the countries almost miraculous recovery from the dire situation it found itself in during the early 30s

The use of MEFO bills and other practices would soon 'come to a head' and cause German industry all sorts of financial problems had more peace 'broken out' instead of an advantageous, victorious and importantly rapid war.

Myth:

Mefo-Wechsel – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

From April 1938 the Mefo bills were replaced by short-term Reichs Treasury bills. The Mefo bills to be redeemed could, in addition to the cash payment, be exchanged for other short-term bills. From March 31, 1938 to March 31, 1939, the issuance of these short-term treasury bills exploded. In this way, 4.2 billion RM were spent in just one year.

At the end of 1938, the Reichsbank directorate and the Reich Ministry of Finance negotiated a repayment plan for the Mefo bills due in 1939. This provided that 3.2 billion RM in bills of exchange should already be repaid in 1939. Furthermore, one billion RM (including interest) should be paid from the Reich budget every year. The 11.9 billion RM in Mefo change should be repaid after 17 years.

It was Schacht himself who prohibited the issuing of new Mefo bills and thus made himself unpopular with Hitler. In protest, he and other members of the Reichsbank directorate resigned from his post as President of the Reichsbank on January 20, 1939.

Mefo changes issued since 1934 (according to Schacht):

• 1934 RM 2.14 billion
• 1935 RM 2.72 billion
• 1936 RM 4.45 billion
• 1937 RM 2.69 billion (until March 31, 1938)

Commercial banks owned 90% of the Mefo bills. Only 10% were still in the commercial economy. The following were still in circulation:

• 1938 RM 11.9 billion
• 1939 RM 11.4 billion
• 1940 RM 10.8 billion
• 1941 RM 10.1 billion
• 1942 RM 9.5 billion
• 1943 RM8.8 billion
• 1944 RM 8.1 billion

The main reason why the banks were very interested in owning the Mefo bills is due to the legal requirements for the special bills shown in the balance sheet. They were allowed to be posted under the balance sheet item " trade change ". This enabled the Mefo bills to be “hidden” from foreign shareholders. Another advantage of the Mefo change was that it was neither shown in the Reich budget nor in the books of the Reich debt administration. The confidentiality was thus preserved.

 

[tomo pauk]

Could Stuka Carry a 500 kg in 1940?

Let alone hit a maneuvering warship with it?

As we are reliant on the B variant for any 1940 style ops (the D being a 1941+ creature) - we are limited to a 250 kg bomb and a brace of 4 x 50 kg bombs under wing

So no.

1000 kg was max for the Ju 87B. The Ju 87R-1 (= Ju 87B + drop tank installation, basically) was even better - 1000 kg bomb AND two drop tanks, and armor, and crew of two (per manual, pg. 29). Ability to hit something was on shoulders of pilot.
Ju-87 was one excellent bomber.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

1000 kg was max for the Ju 87B. The Ju 87R-1 (= Ju 87B + drop tank installation, basically) was even better - 1000 kg bomb AND two drop tanks, and armor, and crew of two (per manual, pg. 29). Ability to hit something was on shoulders of pilot.
Ju-87 was one excellent bomber.

How does that work if the R-1 was a B with mods to allow drop tanks? The weight of the drop tanks will be affecting the bomb-load, surely? They didn’t have different airframes or engines, so the max lift weight must be the same? More fuel = less bombs

 

[tomo pauk]

How does that work if the R-1 was a B with mods to allow drop tanks? The weight of the drop tanks will be affecting the bomb-load, surely? They didn’t have different airframes or engines, so the max lift weight must be the same? More fuel = less bombs

My best guess: they tested it 1st, and, following succesful tests, they aprooved the payload type and weight. More or less what happened to other aircraft, not just in ww2.
The R-1 was rated for max take-off weight of 5550 kg, while the B-2 was rated for 5000.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Myth:

Mefo-Wechsel – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

Not a Myth at all the attempts by Schacht to address the issues of massive inflation and the increasing problems of the equally growing deficit were by him attempting to sell longer term bonds which did work to a certain extent but ultimately people stopped touching the RM with a $%^&ing barge pole so ultimately it did not work

"From the start of Hitler’s reign to the end of MeFo bill financing, the amount of RMs in circulation rose from 3,560 million to 5,278 million. But from March to December 1938, currency circulation rose to 8,223 million RMs, effectively rising more in ten months than it had in the previous five years"

Schacht told Hitler that they either stopped rearmament or....and this is where Hitler fired Schacht (the Architect of Mefo bills) and replaced him with a sycophantic little shit called Funk who did what ever Adolf asked him regardless of the long term damage.....Wafer thin mint sir?

Of course there was a 3rd incredibly risky option that might have worked

WAR!

 

[Roches]

How does that work if the R-1 was a B with mods to allow drop tanks? The weight of the drop tanks will be affecting the bomb-load, surely? They didn’t have different airframes or engines, so the max lift weight must be the same? More fuel = less bombs

The manual linked above gives data for one 1000 kg, 500 kg, or 250 kg bomb, for configurations both with and without drop tanks, ohne/mit abwerfbare(n) Behälter(n), respectively. It states 5390 kg as the total weight with a 1000 kg bomb and 600 L of fuel in drop tanks. Incidentally, they calculate the weight of the two-man crew as 70-100 kg each, or 155-220 lbs — and they include 0-1 kg of flares for some reason.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Not a Myth at all the attempts by Schacht to address the issues of massive inflation and the increasing problems of the equally growing deficit were by him attempting to sell longer term bonds which did work to a certain extent but ultimately people stopped touching the RM with a $%^&ing barge pole so ultimately it did not work

"From the start of Hitler’s reign to the end of MeFo bill financing, the amount of RMs in circulation rose from 3,560 million to 5,278 million. But from March to December 1938, currency circulation rose to 8,223 million RMs, effectively rising more in ten months than it had in the previous five years"

Schacht told Hitler that they either stopped rearmament or....and this is where Hitler fired Schacht (the Architect of Mefo bills) and replaced him with a sycophantic little shit called Funk who did what ever Adolf asked him regardless of the long term damage.....Wafer thin mint sir?

Of course there was a 3rd incredibly risky option that might have worked

WAR!

It seems you didn't read the quote.
Regardless of why Schacht was fired MEFO bills stopped in 1938, a plan was set up to play the vast majority them off 17 years after 1939, and rearmament wasn't retarded by financing, in fact after the end of MEFO bills more was spent on rearmament than the previous year. MEFOs were only important when they were trying to hide rearmament and how much they were spending, which was well over by 1938. War in 1939 wasn't necessary to run from the debt issue (in fact it only jacked up spending by unheard of amounts), it was an attempt to increase resources for rearmament to increase the pace since the Allies having started rearmament were catching up thanks to their ability to buy finished weapons and other expensive essentials from the US, as well as exercise greater political control over Germany by using war as a cover to nazify more elements of the state and military.

It sounds like you're still pushing the outdated 'flight into war' theory put out by Tim Mason in the 1980s and has been since the 1990s:

Causes of World War II - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hitler after all never actually cared about finance, he just ordered his underlings to make things happen and they continually found a way, so saying that the finance issue motivated him to war is both ignoring the historical record on that issue and that even before benefiting from occupying western Europe Germany financed the war just fine, including to a major greater degree than during rearmament, without deferring MEFO payments.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

The manual linked above gives data for one 1000 kg, 500 kg, or 250 kg bomb, for configurations both with and without drop tanks, ohne/mit abwerfbare(n) Behälter(n), respectively. It states 5390 kg as the total weight with a 1000 kg bomb and 600 L of fuel in drop tanks. Incidentally, they calculate the weight of the two-man crew as 70-100 kg each, or 155-220 lbs — and they include 0-1 kg of flares for some reason.

I also note the manual is from 1942

 

[Cryhavoc101]

It seems you didn't read the quote.
Regardless of why Schacht was fired MEFO bills stopped in 1938, a plan was set up to play the vast majority them off 17 years after 1939, and rearmament wasn't retarded by financing, in fact after the end of MEFO bills more was spent on rearmament than the previous year. MEFOs were only important when they were trying to hide rearmament and how much they were spending, which was well over by 1938. War in 1939 wasn't necessary to run from the debt issue (in fact it only jacked up spending by unheard of amounts), it was an attempt to increase resources for rearmament to increase the pace since the Allies having started rearmament were catching up thanks to their ability to buy finished weapons and other expensive essentials from the US, as well as exercise greater political control over Germany by using war as a cover to nazify more elements of the state and military.

It sounds like you're still pushing the outdated 'flight into war' theory put out by Tim Mason in the 1980s and has been since the 1990s:

Causes of World War II - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hitler after all never actually cared about finance, he just ordered his underlings to make things happen and they continually found a way, so saying that the finance issue motivated him to war is both ignoring the historical record on that issue and that even before benefiting from occupying western Europe Germany financed the war just fine, including to a major greater degree than during rearmament, without deferring MEFO payments.

I didn't suggest that it caused the war - certainly allowed it though and there was going to be a point where unsustainable practices become unsustainable

IMO British and French Rearmament would rapidly reach the tipping point where they would begin to match then overtake Germany - that was why Hitler was in a rush and even then there is evidence that he was not expecting Britain's (and subsequently Frances) declaration of war over Poland.

In 1938 Germany was far from being an Autarky and had the benefits of the Aushlass, annexing the Sudetenland, Molotov-Ribbentrop and then war with Poland not occurred allowing the Nazi leadership to put the nation on a war footing then its very hard to see their ability to maintain rearmament at the scale that they had with out of control inflation devaluing the RM on the international market severely impacting their ability to import raw material and goods.

So yes they did find a way.

Didn't end well for them and lots of others.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

My best guess: they tested it 1st, and, following succesful tests, they approved the payload type and weight. More or less what happened to other aircraft, not just in ww2.
The R-1 was rated for max take-off weight of 5550 kg, while the B-2 was rated for 5000.

They only tested it like that for the R-1 and not the B variant? They just didn’t bother or something? But if it’s the same airframe and same engine how does it gain 550kg? The B2 had a better engine, didn’t it? How does the 211A in the R1 lift more than the 211D in the B2?

According to wiki:
To prevent overload conditions, bomb carrying ability was often restricted to a single 250 kg (550 lb) bomb if the aircraft was fully loaded with fuel. The Ju 87 R-1 had a B-1 airframe with the exception of a modification in the fuselage which enabled an additional oil tank. This was installed to feed the engine due to the increase in range with the extra fuel tanks.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I didn't suggest that it caused the war - certainly allowed it though and there was going to be a point where unsustainable practices become unsustainable

Right and that point wasn't 1939.

IMO British and French Rearmament would rapidly reach the tipping point where they would begin to match then overtake Germany - that was why Hitler was in a rush and even then there is evidence that he was not expecting Britain's (and subsequently Frances) declaration of war over Poland.

Sure.

In 1938 Germany was far from being an Autarky and had the benefits of the Aushlass, annexing the Sudetenland, Molotov-Ribbentrop and then war with Poland not occurred allowing the Nazi leadership to put the nation on a war footing then its very hard to see their ability to maintain rearmament at the scale that they had with out of control inflation devaluing the RM on the international market severely impacting their ability to import raw material and goods.

No one claimed they were.
If you look at the economic situation they didn't put the country on a war footing economically. In fact there was no preparation to do so so when the Allies declared war it took months to sort out the economic mess and actually get the nation on a war footing. It was another economic expansion effort to speed up rearmament, not actually change anything with the economy through policy.

What does the RM have to do with importing? No one had been taking payments in that since before Hitler came to power. They used foreign exchange like gold, foreign currencies, stocks, bonds, etc. and autarky was to limit the outflow of foreign exchange. They also relied on foreign barter deals that Schacht initiated, but were running without him without issue to get around the foreign exchange problem.

Also the German currency was pegged to the gold standard, it was not free floated like Schacht wanted, because then the value of it would be dictated by foreign markets. Certainly the Reichsbank lied about how much gold they had on hand and pretty much everyone knew it, but didn't push the issue because Germany was too important to European trade to mess with.

I'm getting the strong impression you aren't familiar with the economic situation at the time.

So yes they did find a way.

Several in fact, none of which were close to collapsing in 1939 or beyond.

Didn't end well for them and lots of others.

Yeah, well war is stupid and Hitler was nuts. None of that really had to do with the argument at hand about the currency and debt situation however.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Right and that point wasn't 1939.


Sure.


No one claimed they were.
If you look at the economic situation they didn't put the country on a war footing economically. In fact there was no preparation to do so so when the Allies declared war it took months to sort out the economic mess and actually get the nation on a war footing. It was another economic expansion effort to speed up rearmament, not actually change anything with the economy through policy.

What does the RM have to do with importing? No one had been taking payments in that since before Hitler came to power. They used foreign exchange like gold, foreign currencies, stocks, bonds, etc. and autarky was to limit the outflow of foreign exchange. They also relied on foreign barter deals that Schacht initiated, but were running without him without issue to get around the foreign exchange problem.

Also the German currency was pegged to the gold standard, it was not free floated like Schacht wanted, because then the value of it would be dictated by foreign markets. Certainly the Reichsbank lied about how much gold they had on hand and pretty much everyone knew it, but didn't push the issue because Germany was too important to European trade to mess with.

I'm getting the strong impression you aren't familiar with the economic situation at the time.


Several in fact, none of which were close to collapsing in 1939 or beyond.


Yeah, well war is stupid and Hitler was nuts. None of that really had to do with the argument at hand about the currency and debt situation however.

Well if you think that more than doubling the RM in circulation in 6 years with the rise getting exponentially worse year in year out then I'm getting a stronger impression you aren't familiar with the economic situation at the time.

German Currency was pretending to be on the Gold Standard - like Italian Crusiers were pretending they were 10,000 tons

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Well if you think that more than doubling the RM in circulation in 6 years with the rise getting exponentially worse year in year out then I'm getting a stronger impression you aren't familiar with the economic situation at the time.

How much of that was hitting the consumer economy? The reason inflation wasn't a problem was that price controls were in place and much of those RMs were circulating only within government sectors. If you can demonstrate that inflation was a crippling problem for Nazi Germany in 1939 I would be eager to see that source.

Not only that but you're ignoring a pretty important thing: Germany expanded it's borders quite a bit in 6 years, so the size of their GNP basically doubled too. Just as our Fed today helps encourage the economic growth by printing and circulating money to ensure there isn't deflation, Germany's growing GNP both due to rearmament, public works, and annexing new territories also meant that circulating currency would need to expand to prevent deflation or economic stagnation. The primary lesson of the Great Depression was deflation meant economic ruin, so it helped to encourage controlled currency inflation through increased circulation pegged to GNP growth was vital to maintain that growth.

German Currency was pretending to be on the Gold Standard - like Italian Crusiers were pretending they were 10,000 tons

Sure, but everyone treated the fiction as reality in practice, so effectively it was reality because the global economic system depended on it in peace time.

 

[tomo pauk]

They only tested it like that for the R-1 and not the B variant? They just didn’t bother or something? But if it’s the same airframe and same engine how does it gain 550kg? The B2 had a better engine, didn’t it? How does the 211A in the R1 lift more than the 211D in the B2?

R1 will certainly need greater take-off distance.
About 'how they managed it' - seems like there was a lot of stretch in the Ju 87 basic airframe. The extra 550 kg take-off weight of the 'R' was due to drop tanks attached.

According to wiki:
To prevent overload conditions, bomb carrying ability was often restricted to a single 250 kg (550 lb) bomb if the aircraft was fully loaded with fuel. The Ju 87 R-1 had a B-1 airframe with the exception of a modification in the fuselage which enabled an additional oil tank. This was installed to feed the engine due to the increase in range with the extra fuel tanks.

No problems with that - one will avoid carrying a 500 kg, let alone 1000 kg bomb unless the target justifies it.