The colony that had colonies

[Lusitania]

With a POD all the way back in the 1200s, you could just have the entirety of South America be Portuguese. I mean, shit, with a POD that early you could butterfly away Christian South Iberia in total. I think the answer to your questions depends on what you define as a "Brazilian."

The only reason portuguese were limited to Brazil only was due to treaty of Tordesillas. This was why I had suggested the Galician colonization of Newfoundland and gulf of st Lawrence before Columbus Spanish expedition.

heck with at 12-14th century POD we might not even have Columbus expedition.

 

[Miguel Lopes]

Good idea for a timeline. Maybe if we could have Brazil to embrace bilinguism instead of just being portuguese or having no oficial language(has the US)this Brazilian Empire could hold off more easily his spanish-speaking territories and cement itself has the leading latin american power.

 

[Miguel Lopes]

Maybe you could have the portuguese trying to seize potosi silver mines to cripple the Spanish Empire, this would explain why they would want to take that territory. Looking forward for this timeline, boa sorte de um companheiro brasileiro.

 

[Nivek]

For a moment i thought we were to talk about mexico(they did legally administered the phillipines for a while)

 

[ronaldo]

The only reason portuguese were limited to Brazil only was due to treaty of Tordesillas. This was why I had suggested the Galician colonization of Newfoundland and gulf of st Lawrence before Columbus Spanish expedition.

heck with at 12-14th century POD we might not even have Columbus expedition.

Well I've spent these last days thinking about what you told me; how Brazil was managed for many years as a decentralized understanding and only with the arrival of the royal family did it really become centralized; I took a look at the portuguese history of north america and saw that in the region of newfoundland, portugal could actually have established a colony there, i decided to add a portuguese colony in the island of newfoundland and saw that portugal could have annexed the island of barbados in the Caribbean too, well let's see how these things will develop. But my focus is still on portuguese south america so I would like to know your opinion for some things that are making me feel about it:

Is there any precedent in Brazilian history that would make the nation have a centralized government well before the arrival of the royal family, perhaps become a unified viceroy from 1600 to 1750 or perhaps even after the beginning of its colonization?
and was there any slight chance of brazil becoming a kingdom of the united kingdom of portugal before napoleon?

And something I am thinking, could Brazil have had abolitionist and slaveholding provinces similar to the north / south states of the united states?

 

[Miguel Lopes]

Well I've spent these last days thinking about what you told me; how Brazil was managed for many years as a decentralized understanding and only with the arrival of the royal family did it really become centralized; I took a look at the portuguese history of north america and saw that in the region of newfoundland, portugal could actually have established a colony there, i decided to add a portuguese colony in the island of newfoundland and saw that portugal could have annexed the island of barbados in the Caribbean too, well let's see how these things will develop. But my focus is still on portuguese south america so I would like to know your opinion for some things that are making me feel about it:

Is there any precedent in Brazilian history that would make the nation have a centralized government well before the arrival of the royal family, perhaps become a unified viceroy from 1600 to 1750 or perhaps even after the beginning of its colonization?
and was there any slight chance of brazil becoming a kingdom of the united kingdom of portugal before napoleon?

And something I am thinking, could Brazil have had abolitionist and slaveholding provinces similar to the north / south states of the united states?

Make the Inconfidência Mineira partially successful and spreading to other states. Portugal wins but has to make a United Kingdom compromise.

 

[Lusitania]

Well I've spent these last days thinking about what you told me; how Brazil was managed for many years as a decentralized understanding and only with the arrival of the royal family did it really become centralized; I took a look at the portuguese history of north america and saw that in the region of newfoundland, portugal could actually have established a colony there, i decided to add a portuguese colony in the island of newfoundland and saw that portugal could have annexed the island of barbados in the Caribbean too, well let's see how these things will develop. But my focus is still on portuguese south america so I would like to know your opinion for some things that are making me feel about it:

Is there any precedent in Brazilian history that would make the nation have a centralized government well before the arrival of the royal family, perhaps become a unified viceroy from 1600 to 1750 or perhaps even after the beginning of its colonization?
and was there any slight chance of brazil becoming a kingdom of the united kingdom of portugal before napoleon?

And something I am thinking, could Brazil have had abolitionist and slaveholding provinces similar to the north / south states of the united states?

The short answer in terms of centralized is no. You must consider the size of Brazil. Similar to the 13 colonies. they were managed independently.

Also remember the size and distances involved. The distance from Maranahao in north to Lisbon was less than to Rio.

Also if we look at European settlement, it was for most part laborers and people who wanted to become farmers and such with some merchants. But we are also talking about the population of both Portugal and Brazil with ioTL Portugal and Brazil being about 3 million each by 1800.

So with a larger Portugal its population can be larger.

Also we need to understand that Portuguese industry and development was very slow and behind other northern Europeans countries. The Portuguese thought is was perfectly normal to own land and produce agricultural goods and trade goods from India, Asia and India and buy all manufactured goods from abroad. It took someone like Pombal to start the industrialization and development. That unfortunely was partially reversed with Maria I coming to throne.

Therefore a lot of changes need to happen

 

[ronaldo]

The short answer in terms of centralized is no. You must consider the size of Brazil. Similar to the 13 colonies. they were managed independently.

Also remember the size and distances involved. The distance from Maranahao in north to Lisbon was less than to Rio.

Also if we look at European settlement, it was for most part laborers and people who wanted to become farmers and such with some merchants. But we are also talking about the population of both Portugal and Brazil with ioTL Portugal and Brazil being about 3 million each by 1800.

So with a larger Portugal its population can be larger.

Also we need to understand that Portuguese industry and development was very slow and behind other northern Europeans countries. The Portuguese thought is was perfectly normal to own land and produce agricultural goods and trade goods from India, Asia and India and buy all manufactured goods from abroad. It took someone like Pombal to start the industrialization and development. That unfortunely was partially reversed with Maria I coming to throne.

Therefore a lot of changes need to happen

I established Brazil as a liberal colony that allows it to attract numerous Protestant and Jewish immigrants as well as Catholics throughout the centuries, so it industrializes at the same time as the US.
This allowed that when the Portuguese right after the Porto revolution tried to revert Brazil to colony status again, it not only managed to become independent and united but also allowed Brazil to make an invasion of Portugal by forcing Portugal to cede half of its colonial empire to Brazil

 

[Lusitania]

I established Brazil as a liberal colony that allows it to attract numerous Protestant and Jewish immigrants as well as Catholics throughout the centuries, so it industrializes at the same time as the US.
This allowed that when the Portuguese right after the Porto revolution tried to revert Brazil to colony status again, it not only managed to become independent and united but also allowed Brazil to make an invasion of Portugal by forcing Portugal to cede half of its colonial empire to Brazil

You can’t develop industry if the mother country does not develop industry. Plus the American industry only really developed after independence. You need to change the mentality of Portugal not just Brazil.

you also need to understand the role of colonies. To be suppliers of raw materials and consumers of manufactured goods from home country. You cannot change that on a whim. That was the mentality of all Europeans. Only in the late 18th century did it change to allow some manufacturing in the colonies.

problem was Portugal has a very weak to non existence manufacturing. So it not going to happen in colony if not happening in Portugal.

 

[Lampiao]

Expansion towards Bolivia is geographically unviable during colonial times. Rivers were the roads back then and the area between OTL Bolivia, Paraguay and Brazil correspond to the Pantanal wetlands and the drylands of the Grab Chaco - it's not a coincidence that the Chaco was a disputed land until the 1930's. To access Bolivian lowlands bandeirantes need to occupy Santa Cruz de la Sierra, which is on the Mamoré river, a part of the Amazon basin, thus, it implies a more important penetration coming from Amazon valley, not from Southeastern Brazil, which I don't think it's realistic. The old capital of Mato Grosso, Vila Bela da Santissima Trindade, was on the Guaporé, ie in the Amazon basin, and was the connection between the Plate and Amazon basins in colonial Brazil and until this very day is one of the most isolated cities of the country. That's to say, to occupy Santa Cruz and the Moxos and Chiquitos missions was way beyond Brazilan-Portuguese capabilities during colonial times and it was much more interesting to focus official support to occupy the mouth of the Plate, which Colonia de Sacramento, instead of plundering some peripheral missions in the middle of Bolivia.

 

[ronaldo]

[QUOTE = "Lusitania, post: 20066476, membro: 11103"]

 

[ronaldo]

You can’t develop industry if the mother country does not develop industry. Plus the American industry only really developed after independence. You need to change the mentality of Portugal not just Brazil.

you also need to understand the role of colonies. To be suppliers of raw materials and consumers of manufactured goods from home country. You cannot change that on a whim. That was the mentality of all Europeans. Only in the late 18th century did it change to allow some manufacturing in the colonies.

problem was Portugal has a very weak to non existence manufacturing. So it not going to happen in colony if not happening in Portugal.

Truth. I am studying Portuguese history and seeing that a more liberal Portugal would be possible only without the Iberian union (something that I am already planning how to avoid happening). I think now I have to find out how I can allow Portugal to industrialize following the British and therefore Brazil start its industrialization when the court comes to Brazil.

 

[ronaldo]

Expansion towards Bolivia is geographically unviable during colonial times. Rivers were the roads back then and the area between OTL Bolivia, Paraguay and Brazil correspond to the Pantanal wetlands and the drylands of the Grab Chaco - it's not a coincidence that the Chaco was a disputed land until the 1930's. To access Bolivian lowlands bandeirantes need to occupy Santa Cruz de la Sierra, which is on the Mamoré river, a part of the Amazon basin, thus, it implies a more important penetration coming from Amazon valley, not from Southeastern Brazil, which I don't think it's realistic. The old capital of Mato Grosso, Vila Bela da Santissima Trindade, was on the Guaporé, ie in the Amazon basin, and was the connection between the Plate and Amazon basins in colonial Brazil and until this very day is one of the most isolated cities of the country. That's to say, to occupy Santa Cruz and the Moxos and Chiquitos missions was way beyond Brazilan-Portuguese capabilities during colonial times and it was much more interesting to focus official support to occupy the mouth of the Plate, which Colonia de Sacramento, instead of plundering some peripheral missions in the middle of Bolivia.

The capacities of Brazil and Portugal during colonial times were limited, but one way I found to get around this is that Portugal annexes Galicia and parts of castella during its formation in the 1200s so it has more population and resources before the beginning of the colonization, and also do not expel the Jews so Brazil becomes a more liberal colony similar to the United States colonies allowing immigrants Protestants, and Jews etc.

 

[Lusitania]

Truth. I am studying Portuguese history and seeing that a more liberal Portugal would be possible only without the Iberian union (something that I am already planning how to avoid happening). I think now I have to find out how I can allow Portugal to industrialize following the British and therefore Brazil start its industrialization when the court comes to Brazil.

you will need to make Castile/Spain not able to threaten Portuguese into expelling its Jews and later Protestants. Avoid the setup of inquisition. It not only existed in Portugal but in the colonies.

 

[Lampiao]

The capacities of Brazil and Portugal during colonial times were limited, but one way I found to get around this is that Portugal annexes Galicia and parts of castella during its formation in the 1200s so it has more population and resources before the beginning of the colonization, and also do not expel the Jews so Brazil becomes a more liberal colony similar to the United States colonies allowing immigrants Protestants, and Jews etc.

Err... Much more Portuguese people migrated to Brazil than Europeans to the Thirteen Colonies.

Brazil had more than enough manpower to expand with a large number of Portuguese willing to migrate to literally anywhere. A large number of people didn't migrate to central South America because the territory wasn't economically viable due to a large number of factors.

 

[Lusitania]

The issue with pod of the 1200 -1300 start date is that Iberian union , Napoleonic wars what is that. Sorry but I have ‘hard time imagining those things happening