MaxGerke01
Banned
This OTL history book might contain some good information for the timeline- https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Amer...578613859&sprefix=hitlers+amer,aps,191&sr=8-1
While people like Fitzgerald would be likely to be involved in the new regime after 1971, he likely doesn't exist. Can't find a lot of information on him, other than according to a NY Times article he was 54 in 2018, which means he would have been born in 1964, twenty+ years after the POD of the book, so I find the likelihood of his existence to be unlikely.One character who could play an interesting part is John Fitzgerald (R-CA). In OTL, he ran as a Holocaust denier in California, in one of the bluest districts in America, gaining 23% of the vote, by challenging people to prove that the Nazis committed genocide:
Holocaust Denier in California Congressional Race Leaves State G.O.P. Scrambling (Published 2018)
John Fitzgerald placed second in a House primary just after the state Republican Party discovered his anti-Semitic views and rescinded its endorsement.www.nytimes.com
Ohhhhh despite my personal political leanings, I don't know that I really want to touch that topic with a ten-foot-poll. He and his family (lil' DJ included) are likely still alive and in New York in 1971. I am looking at having a major uprising in New York, however, as it has one of the highest (if not THE highest) concentration of Jews in the United States, not to mention all the other minorities that the Nazis won't like. Since the city isn't nuked, the locals will likely rise up to resist, and I see a lot of conventional destruction raining down on the city. The uprising could last for some time, with pockets of resistance in the suburbs lasting years. It would be quite possible to imagine that an ill fate befalls them during this time of chaos. If they survived, they'd likely support the regime.Also I wonder what this guy would have been doing since he likely survived WW3 in NYC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Trump
This book sounds both terrifying and fascinating. Not sure I can squeeze it into my reading list just now, but I'd love to at some point.This OTL history book might contain some good information for the timeline- https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-American-Friends-Reichs-Supporters/dp/1250148952/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1XXOMC95KBP06&keywords=hitlers+american+friends&qid=1578613859&sprefix=hitlers+amer,aps,191&sr=8-1
The Germanic Empire, shown in the blood-red of the flag, stretched from England deep into Siberia and India. Paler red showed lands occupied but not formally annexed: France, the United States, Canada. In the Empire's shadow were the little realms of the allied nations: Sweden's gold, Finland's pale blue, the greens of Hungary and Portugal, Romania's dark blue, purple for Spain and Bulgaria, and the yellow of the Italian Empire surrounded the Mediterranean. Africa was mostly red, too, though Portugal, Spain, and Italy kept their colonies on the dark continent and the Aryan-dominated Union of South Africa was another ally, not a conquest.
Only the Empire of Japan, with Southeast Asia, China, the islands of the Pacific and Indian Oceans, and Australia all shown in yellow, came anywhere close to matching the Germanic Empire in size.
While people like Fitzgerald would be likely to be involved in the new regime after 1971, he likely doesn't exist. Can't find a lot of information on him, other than according to a NY Times article he was 54 in 2018, which means he would have been born in 1964, twenty+ years after the POD of the book, so I find the likelihood of his existence to be unlikely.
I feel like George Lincoln Rockwell would be a high-ranking figure in occupied America. Obvious choice I know, but there is a good reason for that.
William Luther Pierce (OTL author of The Turner Diaries) would also be a likely part of the Nazi American government. He had a background in physics so perhaps he would be in charge of the Department of Energy or something.
I could see Arthur J. Jones as a collaborator figure sometime in the 1990's or early 2000's. Maybe he'd be VP to Duke-good regional balance to have a Midwestern Nazi get a chance leading the puppet regime considering southern politicos likely will get a disproportionate number of terms in the Nazi-aligned government just based off where Nazi sympathies are the strongest.
A dark horse option for a Nazi collaborator regime could be Ted Bundy. There's no real indication of him having Nazi leanings OTL, but given he seemed to harbor political ambitions, the beginning of the German occupation around the time of his real-life murders and the fact he was a remorseless sociopath who wanted to murder people, Bundy very plausibly could've become an eager early supporter of the German-backed government's genocide. Him getting involved early could lead the Nazis to prop up his political ambitions to ultimately lead the American puppet state and even if he kills Aryan women if he's connected enough the Nazis totally would let him get away with it and cover it up.
Maybe the list could be:
Strom Thurmond/Lester Maddox 1971-1981
George Lincoln Rockwell/John Rarick 1981-1989
Lester Maddox/Ted Bundy 1989-1997
Ted Bundy/Arthur Jones 1997-2005
David Duke/Don Black 2005-2013
After Duke it might be the case the US gets to elect a non-Nazi candidate as Buckliger’s reforms take root but it’s also possible they insist on keeping the elections restricted for America. Also by 2012 it’s very possible for people who in OTL weren’t Nazis to embrace fascism as the first post-occupation generation reaches political maturity. Any politically-minded child of the 1960’s who would be Aryan by Nazi rules likely would be fascist by 2012 and could be Duke’s successor.
I feel like George Lincoln Rockwell as a member of the collaborator government is a bit too easy. More interesting to see him as the leading of a Nazi inspired or non Nazi inspired resistance group.
Fair.
Im interested in how the Japan-Germany Cold War alliances look. Obviously Europe is most certainly aligned to Germany and East Asia to Japan. Beyond that, I could see Japan providing covert aid to anti-German resistance groups in the former USSR, India, Iran and what’s left of the Middle East and Africa (specifically I would imagine South Africa and Rhodesia would have extant black rebel groups as it appears apartheid didn’t give way to Nazi-tier genocide).
Moreover I expect Latin America’s fascist governments are closer to the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity sphere than the German bloc owing to wariness German racial views could lead to the Reich attacking them. Central Asia is likely pro-Japan for the same reason. I could even see some OTL leftist leaders (eg: Castro, Mandela, etc.) being ‘Japanese-style fascists’ who claim to be anti-imperialist (hypocritically if they align to Japan of course but it’s not like the USSR was averse to oppressing neighboring states while claiming to be advocates of liberation).
On the flip side Germany likely funnels weapons and/or money to white Australian rebels and maybe Alaskan nationalists. Enough realpolitik could mean they even aid Indochinese or Chinese guerilla movements but I think by the time Germany got around to considering Japan a rival their rule in Asia was too entrenched and hatred of ‘Orientals’ probably made that prospect unappealing today the Nazis.
It is mentioned in the book that the Netherlands denounced the 2011 SS-led Putsch against Buckliger. and latter on held a general election of their own without German interference and elected a parliament with a non-Fascist majority. This to me means it was a not annexed directly by Germany.I'm trying to figure out the "legal" framework of the modern German Empire as it is described in the book in 2010. Here's an excert:
Furthermore, several times in the book there is reference to both the Greater German Reich and the Germanic Empire in the same sentence, such as when Buckliger is announced as the new leader: "After long and serious discussions, senior Party, SS, and military leaders have chosen the present minister of heavy industry, Heinz Buckliger, to guide the future of the Greater German Reich and the Germanic Empire," and later, "The new Fuhrer will do wonderful things for the Reich and the Germanic Empire."
My interpretation of this would be that the Reich itself would Germany proper (including Austria, the Sudetenland, and other areas that would be officially annexed). This might not, however, include Bohemia and Moravia, The General Government (Poland), Reichskomissariat Ostland, Reichskomissariat Ukraine, and the former Soviet Union west of the Urals, nor would it include France, the UK, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, or Norway. THESE nations are what I would classify as part of the broader "Germanic Empire" (and would also potentially include North America, Africa, the Middle East, and India).
Broadly speaking this is sort of how I'd picture things:
- Deutsches Imperium (Germanic Empire)
- Grossdeutsches Reich
- Germany
- Austria
- former Poland
- Ukraine
- former Soviet territory west of the Urals
- "Ostland" (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania)
- other undefined colonies in Africa and the Middle East
- France
- the United Kingdom of Great Britain
- Norway
- Denmark
- the Netherlands (unless this might have been annexed directly?)
- Belgium
- Luxembourg (unless this might have been annexed directly?)
- Iceland
- India
- The United States (including Canada)
- Allied Nations:
- Italy
- Spain
- Portugal
- Finland
- Sweden (listed in the book, neutral IOTL during WWII)
- Hungary
- Romania
- Bulgaria
- Croatia
- Turkey (not mentioned, speculation)
- Persia (not mentioned, speculation)
- Brazil
- Argentina
- Neutral?
- Ireland (not mentioned, speculation - could see it formally neutral but under a pseudo fascist government, sort of a slow slide into things)
- Switzerland (not mentioned, speculation)
- Mexico (not mentioned, speculation)
Also, one last thing before I go off and actually right some. I was thinking last night about the state of Catholicism ITTL. If memory serves me right, IOTL Italy and Spain's fascist regimes both played up allegiance to the Church. I could see this continuing, also in Ireland as well - I am thinking that during the Nazi invasion of Britan, the Republic of Ireland invades Northern Ireland to "protect" the locals, but then start to purge the Unionists and this slowly leads the Republic of Ireland into a state of nationalist pseudo-fascism that builds up Catholicism as part of the identity of the state. Pius XII largely goes along with this, and after the war makes a better peace with the Nazis as well.
This, I would imagine, would not sit well with many American Catholics, and I am picturing some sort of schism in the 1950s between American Catholics and their European counterparts, possibly with the American and Canadian and Australian catholic bishops leaving to form some alternate church. This new organization would then be a target of suppression after WWIII.
Thoughts on all of this?
It is mentioned in the book that the Netherlands denounced the 2011 SS-led Putsch against Buckliger. and latter on held a general election of their own without German interference and elected a parliament with a non-Fascist majority. This to me means it was a not annexed directly by Germany.
I will hink so a Dutch version of Vichy France.I do recall that now that you mention it. So it would be part of the larger Imerpium, but not directly part of the Reich.
What does the opposition to the FJP look like? Are non-FJP parties holding seats or is it like modern China where there are Independents who serve as the legal opposition?
I will say in Turtledoves favor that Nazi Germany winning a war with the US in the 60s/70s is a lot more creative and somewhat more believable then the more standard Nazi victory where they nuke DC in 45 and Stormtroopers are waltzing down Broadway around the same time as OTL VE day. I could see the Nazi's "winning" in some scenarios around then though I think it'd be a "win" where the Americans manage to nuke at least a few German cities. I could see Isolationists keeping the US from directly arming the Brits and the Soviets. But Nazi Germany completely and totally beating both the UK and USSR is likely to scare the shit out of Americans. Even if the US doesn't try and directly fight Nazi Germany I think some sort of large scale military buildup "Fortress America" type scenario where the US might not interfere in Europe but maintains a fuckton of bombs.
I could also see the US falling behind Nazi Germany in some sectors (unlikely but sort of possible in some scenarios) but by the 60's I think any scenario where the Nazi's have previous ruled nukes and rule a large chunk of Eurasia is going to result in the US maintaining it's own sizable nuclear arsenal and intercontinental bombers or missiles.
I suppose some sort of scenario where the Nazi's "Win" and nuke a dozen American cities and destroy much of the US military is plausible with that scenario. But I think Germany (and potentially Japan to boot) would have eaten at least a few City Busters. So you'd have a situation where the US is crippled and the Nazi's can dictate a peace but one where the Nazi's have in turn suffered pretty badly. Say at a minimum Berlin, some of the major German air and naval bases closer to the US, and a couple other cities burning in return for the US losing most of the eastern seaboard.
Unlike Turtledoves other alternate history books. POME isn't meant to be a serious and realistic depiction of how the Nazis could have won World War II. Because lets be perfectly frank, it's utterly impossible for them to have done so even if they had gotten Nuclear technology.
It's meant to be an alternate history scenario that acts as a vehicle for a contemporary audience to get an insight into what life was actually like for Jews in the real world Nazi Germany. The constant paranoia of being found out, having to hide your own heritage to the point of arguably not even practicing it anymore, having to deal with the propaganda that demonizes you from the day you were born. Those are all things real jews in the real Nazi Germany had to suffer. It's a very real horror viewed through a fantasy context.
So speaking purely for myself. Trying to figure out the lore behind the setting/ how the world came to be this way, kind've defeats the point. Because this is not a story that is meant to be historically plausible like say Ruled Britannia was.
HT mentions how much Hitler liked Gone With the Wind.
So a thought about popular culture in the US. In the passage about the Vicki and Landser Sepp dolls and action figures (Barbie and GI Joe OTL) HT mentions how much Hitler liked Gone With the Wind. This raises the likelihood that the Lost Cause of the Confederacy has been dusted off and refurbished https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy. This seems especially likely considering a likely over representation of Southerners (ie Thurmond and Maddox) who were in the collaborationist government and American SS. There would have been virulent racism in casual and everyday life such as the continued existence of greasy spoons like this one- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo's and much, much worse....
BTW I love the update and hope to see more and more also I would be honored if you included my idea about the alternate Philadelphia Experiment movie as well
Why would Nazi Germany, the most racist government in the history of humankind. Show a movie that has black people in it?
The movie is based on a book about a group of black prisoners who are deliberately sent into the radioactive ruins of Philadelphia in 1976-in a conscious dig at the Bicentennial-to retrieve any remains of the Liberty Bell for display in Germany and to conduct a long term study on the effects of radiation exposure -like the Tuskegee Experiment did with syphilis in OTL. As for when and where the book is published and the movie made that can be up to you. Of course if its from an American source it would probably not be till the 2020s at least. Perhaps it comes from one of "free countries" like Brazil. Mexico or even Japan at an earlier date ?Your Philadelphia Experiment movie idea was having to do with the nuclear remains of Philadelphia, correct? Care to flesh that out a bit, I'd like to include it if I can. 😊