I find it hilarious that the Italians can't knock out even the British out of the Mediterranean despite having all the technical and numerical advantage there
This is worth a look.
I find it hilarious that the Italians can't knock out even the British out of the Mediterranean despite having all the technical and numerical advantage there
And neither one of those is true in 1940. The link is inaccurate on the number of RM BBs that were available / operational since there was only 2 available in June 1940. By November 1940, the RM got gobsmacked with Op Judgement.I find it hilarious that the Italians can't knock out even the British out of the Mediterranean despite having all the technical and numerical advantage there
The RN BBs outnumbered the RM in June 1940 not the other way around. The RN Med fleet had 4 BBs (one in dry dock) plus Lorraine was at Alexandria. The RM only had 2 old BBs available.
LA SPEZIA Battleship - CAIO DUILO (comp 10 May 15) refitting until 15 Jul Unavailable
NAPLES 9th Battleship Squadron – LITTORIO at Ansaldo bldg to comp 2 Aug Unavailable
TARANTO 5th Battleship Division (Ammiraglio di Divisione Brivonesi) - CONTE DE CAVOUR (comp 1 Apr 15), GUILIO CESARE (14 May 14) 9th Battleship Division - VITTORIO VENETO at Trieste bldg to comp 2 Aug Unavailable
TRIESTE Battleship - ANDREA DORIA (comp 13 Mar 16) refitting until 26 Oct Unavailable
So there are two old BBs at Taranto available immediately in June with another old BB available in July. The two new BBs aren't available until August at the earliest and both new BBs had extensive issues with their sea trials.
You forgot "and the friend you do have refuses you promised air cover and feeds you false intel they know to be false".You would not be laughing; if Bennie the Moose sent you out there to face an enemy who has some things you do not;
a. Training in night fighting.
b. RADAR.
c. SONAR.
d. Jutland lessons learned fixes for ammunition, damage control procedures, and fleet command and control.
e. aircraft carriers.
f. better aircraft.
g. all the oil he needs.
h. a big bully of a friend who will take in his battle-damaged ships, fix them better than when new and not charge him a red farthing for the joy of the doing.
i. in reference to {h.) supplies him with MIDVALE UNBREAKABLES made to specifications, the forerunners to Superheavyweights, so the enemy's guns hit even harder than with Greenboys.
j. and about those airplanes? (f.)
And the crypto machines that your friend is selling you have been broken by the enemy and will lead the RN to get ambushed on multiple occasions.You forgot "and the friend you do have refuses you promised air cover and feeds you false intel they know to be false".
Also, assuming somehow everything possible is thrown into the battle, the Italians only have Conte di Cavour and Giulio Cesare for BB's, Andrea Doria and Caio Duilio will be rebuilding for the next few months, which means they have two BB's, the French have 3 Bretagnes and 2 Dunkerques, so they can send 1-2 BB's to the Atlantic and still have numerical superiority
With what fuel? They did win several naval engagements. Their biggest weaknesses were a lack of fuel and reliable air cover. War is complicated. You can’t just boil it down to numbers.I find it hilarious that the Italians can't knock out even the British out of the Mediterranean despite having all the technical and numerical advantage there
@Zheng He I think you mean May 1940, no May 1942. On the 20th May 1940, Provence and Bretagne sailed from Alexandria for Mers-El-Kebir, but Lorraine stayed there with the rest of Force X (the French squadron in Eastern Med, with 4 cruisers, 3 destroyers and 1 sub).Until late May 1942 the French Mediterranean Fleet was split with the three older battleships in Alexandria with other assorted cats and dogs. In late May they were ordered to concentrate with the French Twins and other units in Algeria to deter the Italians. Noodling on a couple of pods and looking at the OBs to get some sort of engagement in the eastern half the Med, not sure how realistic it is but given who was where and when it is probably the best option.
Unrelated to topic but makes you wonder how fucked Italy would be had the bulk of the Marine Nationale remained in the war, since OTL the Italians got trashed by the British.You would not be laughing; if Bennie the Moose sent you out there to face an enemy who has some things you do not;
a. Training in night fighting.
b. RADAR.
c. SONAR.
d. Jutland lessons learned fixes for ammunition, damage control procedures, and fleet command and control.
e. aircraft carriers.
f. better aircraft.
g. all the oil he needs.
h. a big bully of a friend who will take in his battle-damaged ships, fix them better than when new and not charge him a red farthing for the joy of the doing.
i. in reference to {h.) supplies him with MIDVALE UNBREAKABLES made to specifications, the forerunners to Superheavyweights, so the enemy's guns hit even harder than with Greenboys.
j. and about those airplanes? (f.)
Hi, cousin! My name is RIKKO. I hail from Santa Ana, California. Beautiful country, just like Savoia in the old country. Going to bomb you now...
Unrelated to topic but makes you wonder how fucked Italy would be had the bulk of the Marine Nationale remained in the war, since OTL the Italians got trashed by the British.
Did they get trashed by the British? They lost some battles, but thet continued operating throughout the North African campaign, sunk hundreds of thousands of Allied tonnage and forced the AlliesUnrelated to topic but makes you wonder how fucked Italy would be had the bulk of the Marine Nationale remained in the war, since OTL the Italians got trashed by the British.
Those would have still happened anyway had France not fallen or the bulk of the Marine Nationale had defected to the Free French. OTL at the start of the war, France ordered US shipyards to refit their ships, which did happen anyway (with Free France). After Operation Torch, even more French ships were refitted at US shipyards due to the 1939 orders. Also, not all of the French navy was at Mers El Kebir or scuttled at Toulon. A large part of the French Navy was in Britain, Alexandria, or scattered among French colonies. Those ships joined the Free French. Free France still had a significant navy during and after the war (although not the juggernaut navy the US and Royal Navy were, plus the French navy was never a juggernaut anyway).
Things you might be missing (^^^): (5 months in the Brooklyn Navy Yard).
-US AAA artillery.
-US rangefinders.
-US armor plate and hull metal to repair the holes.
-Jean Bart's artillery tube spares installed to repair MA after the British shot Richelieu up and torpedoed her. (It was the Jean Bart the Massachusetts trashed. My error.)
And what you will not see.
-Gun pits and slides completely rebuilt
-shell hoists and ammunition stowage and handling revised to best existent Allied battle lessons learned practices. This includes a complete electro-mechanical overhaul.
Radar and optical fire control upgrades somehow was smuggled out of France and was French and "decent" as in rather damned good.
The "big bully" did a 4.0 job on her.
A lot of other "free French ships" got the same treatment. She would have gotten US radar and computers but de Gaulle rubbed FDR the wrong way and King was not happy either. That's all right, the French stuff was quite good.
Those would have still happened anyway had France not fallen or the bulk of the Marine Nationale had defected to the Free French. OTL at the start of the war, France ordered US shipyards to refit their ships, which did happen anyway (with Free France). After Operation Torch, even more French ships were refitted at US shipyards due to the 1939 orders. Also, not all of the French navy was at Mers El Kebir or scuttled at Toulon. A large part of the French Navy was in Britain, Alexandria, or scattered among French colonies. Those ships joined the Free French. Free France still had a significant navy during and after the war (although not the juggernaut navy the US and Royal Navy were, plus the French navy was never a juggernaut anyway).
Did they get trashed by the British? They lost some battles, but they continued operating throughout the North African campaign, sunk hundreds of thousands of Allied tonnage and forced the Allies (to some severe setbacks.).
I’m not contesting that they’d lose of course. They certainly would. I just think that saying they were trashed goes a bit far. Their primary mission was running supplies to Axis troops in North Africa, and they did so for the better part of 3 years. Libyan port facilities Were undeveloped, which limited the amount of supplies that the Italian Navy could deliver to German and Italian troops fighting North Africa. And their Naval engagements were often indecisive. The first clash of the Battle of the Mediterranean took place of the coast of Calabria and it was fairly even. There’s no disagreement about the superiority of the British though. I’d probably rank their Navy the 3rd strongest during the war.The Marine National in 1945 was a polyglot mess, with 40% of their equipment (complete ships) supplied by the Americans and British. In some respects, immediately postwar and to this day, the MN has taken their bitter WW II experience to heart and has lessons learned far better than many other navies. People who dismiss their WW II performance and their postwar efforts are frankly "stupid".
What I wrote about the French applies equally to the Italians. They were a mess in 1945. They learned and rebuilt from the keel up. The Italian navy continues its deadly traditions of naval special operations, submarine warfare and ASW expertise. They remain good practitioners of fast attack boat warfare and their naval technology *(Sea Sparrow was a reaction to ASPIDE), like the French remains a world gold standard.
I’m not contesting that they’d lose of course. They certainly would. I just think that saying they were trashed goes a bit far. Their primary mission was running supplies to Axis troops in North Africa, and they did so for the better part of 3 years. Libyan port facilities Were undeveloped, which limited the amount of supplies that the Italian Navy could deliver to German and Italian troops fighting North Africa. And their Naval engagements were often indecisive. The first clash of the Battle of the Mediterranean took place of the coast of Calabria and it was fairly even. There’s no disagreement about the superiority of the British though. I’d probably rank their Navy the 3rd strongest during the war.
You way that you said trashed indicated was pretty general. Like I said. It was a clear loss, but they were running supplies for the better part of three years while fighting the Allies. It’s not as if their ships were sunk in 1940 or 1941 and the Germans and Italians in Africa were left to rot.Every navy went through a WW II period when it got trashed.
EVERY navy.
How it emerged shows how it did and how it would do in the future.
The Italians took 13 months to repair and come back for round 2. It took the Americans 2 YEARS.
Unrelated to topic but makes you wonder how fucked Italy would be had the bulk of the Marine Nationale remained in the war, since OTL the Italians got trashed by the British
You way that you said trashed indicated was pretty general. Like I said. It was a clear loss, but they were running supplies for the better part of three years while fighting the Allies. It’s not as if their ships were sunk in 1940 or 1941 and the Germans and Italians in Africa were left to rot.
I find it hilarious that the Italians can't knock out even the British out of the Mediterranean despite having all the technical and numerical advantage there
You would not be laughing; if Bennie the Moose sent you out there to face an enemy who has some things you do not;
a. Training in night fighting.
b. RADAR.
c. SONAR.
d. Jutland lessons learned fixes for ammunition, damage control procedures, and fleet command and control.
e. aircraft carriers.
f. better aircraft.
g. all the oil he needs.
h. a big bully of a friend who will take in his battle-damaged ships, fix them better than when new and not charge him a red farthing for the joy of the doing.
i. in reference to {h.) supplies him with MIDVALE UNBREAKABLES made to specifications, the forerunners to Superheavyweights, so the enemy's guns hit even harder than with Greenboys.
j. and about those airplanes? (f.)
Hi, cousin! My name is RIKKO. I hail from Santa Ana, California. Beautiful country, just like Savoia in the old country. Going to bomb you now...