Muslim World: The True Faith Timeline

[EnvarKadri]

And yeah, apart from the andalusians, Faransa needs a local source of manpower: They have much more difficulty importing arabo-berber armies and a good chunk of the territory is non-deal for settlers, and yeah, they already saw the efficiency of native troops (especially the heavy cavalry), but as these native troops aren't muslim, the fear of use them is real, and so is the ''ok we need to convert these bois to maintain power'' feeling.

Once the Scandinavian start viking the faransian emir could buy slave soldier from them. The slave soldier will be likely be kidnapped saxons, slavs and baltic. This may start a slav or saxon or baltic migration into farina similar to the turkic groups in Persia and Anatolia in otl. Although that depends on population density and its pressure. In otl the ones that suffered most population pressure to migrate were the germans and the ones that had the lowest population density were the slavs, so the germans moved east. I don't know if the same can be said of Faransa but historically France had more farmlands and therefore more population. Although, depending of how much war and instability plagues the land population can drop quite fast.

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

Once the Scandinavian start viking the faransian emir could buy slave soldier from them. The slave soldier will be likely be kidnapped saxons, slavs and baltic. This may start a slav or saxon or baltic migration into farina similar to the turkic groups in Persia and Anatolia in otl. Although that depends on population density and its pressure. In otl the ones that suffered most population pressure to migrate were the germans and the ones that had the lowest population density were the slavs, so the germans moved east. I don't know if the same can be said of Faransa but historically France had more farmlands and therefore more population. Although, depending of how much war and instability plagues the land population can drop quite fast.

Now, this is a idea, germanic slave-soldiers purchased from vikings is something that i had not thought about, but yeah, until this slave trade start the problem will remain.

Though i think unlikely the germans going west, instability will be a problem in Faransa but nothing that will leave the area open to germanic settlement. They will probably go east as OTL, but i had not puut further thoughts into this.

 

[EnvarKadri]

IIRC in otl the main source of slave soldiers (Mamluks) for the Caliphate of Al Andalus was slavs kidnapped by vikings. At least until the malians converted to islam, opening the west african slave trade for the Maghreb.

 

[last admiral]

Now that this timeline still have Vikings around, i wonder where Vinland Saga could fit in it? Thorkell being part of mercenarries for 'weaker' muslim power? Or Askelad might found 'suitable allies' from this newcomer for his plan?

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

Now that this timeline still have Vikings around, i wonder where Vinland Saga could fit in it? Thorkell being part of mercenarries for 'weaker' muslim power? Or Askelad might found 'suitable allies' from this newcomer for his plan?

I have some plans for Vinland...the Ukhawias aren't there for nothing , the viking era will have some interesting effects on muslim europe, and muslim europe will have some interesting effects on the viking era

 

[krieger]

Now, this is a idea, germanic slave-soldiers purchased from vikings is something that i had not thought about, but yeah, until this slave trade start the problem will remain.

Though i think unlikely the germans going west, instability will be a problem in Faransa but nothing that will leave the area open to germanic settlement. They will probably go east as OTL, but i had not puut further thoughts into this.

How? If al-Faransa exists that means that no unified German state arises. Because there is no Carolingians around and al-Faransa is unlikely to conquer both Saxony and Bavaria, which is required to form Germany. Germans couldn't defeat even Elbean Slavs by themselves by 300 years, with Muslims knocking next to their door they'd do better? And elites of al-Faransa aren't culturally Germanic (which Frankish ruling elites were to some extent), so they have no reason to suport German-speaking nobility. Not if said nobility views Muslims as a foreign oppresors and conquerors, which they certainly would. They wouldn't also conquer Saxony as soon as Charlemagne did, so Elbean Slavs have more time to form their own statehood, capable of resisting any Germanic attempt to expand east. Or they could be gobbled up by rising Poland, but it'd give the same result as before. Bohemia also won't pledge to (non-existent) German king, which means that German influence would be weaker there. IMHO if al-Faransa controls former Thuringia very loosely, the opposition of Germanic expansion could happen. Thuringia with central power close to non-existent is an invitation for Slavs to raid and Elbean Slavs were very experienced looter. Slavic pirates called "chąśnicy" sacked biggest Danish city (Hedeby) which was also capital of Denmark at the time of sack and were raiding a lot in Scandinavia.

 

[Nivek]

How? If al-Faransa exists that means that no unified German state arises. Because there is no Carolingians around and al-Faransa is unlikely to conquer both Saxony and Bavaria, which is required to form Germany. Germans couldn't defeat even Elbean Slavs by themselves by 300 years, with Muslims knocking next to their door they'd do better? And elites of al-Faransa aren't culturally Germanic (which Frankish ruling elites were to some extent), so they have no reason to suport German-speaking nobility. Not if said nobility views Muslims as a foreign oppresors and conquerors, which they certainly would. They wouldn't also conquer Saxony as soon as Charlemagne did, so Elbean Slavs have more time to form their own statehood, capable of resisting any Germanic attempt to expand east. Or they could be gobbled up by rising Poland, but it'd give the same result as before. Bohemia also won't pledge to (non-existent) German king, which means that German influence would be weaker there. IMHO if al-Faransa controls former Thuringia very loosely, the opposition of Germanic expansion could happen. Thuringia with central power close to non-existent is an invitation for Slavs to raid and Elbean Slavs were very experienced looter. Slavic pirates called "chąśnicy" sacked biggest Danish city (Hedeby) which was also capital of Denmark at the time of sack and were raiding a lot in Scandinavia.

Amazing for this info, can you say we butterfly away germany of even exist? that is such amazing butterfly and changes everything

I have some plans for Vinland...the Ukhawias aren't there for nothing , the viking era will have some interesting effects on muslim europe, and muslim europe will have some interesting effects on the viking era

OTL muslim scared away the vikings easily with greek fire and some counter naval and raid tactics, the remaning al-magus(the magicians, that is how muslim called them) stayed and even converted to islam, becoming cheesemakers and seafarers

 

[krieger]

Amazing for this info, can you say we butterfly away germany of even exist? that is such amazing butterfly and changes everything

Yes. There will be Saxony, there will be Bavaria and there will be Muslim central regions. But they're unlikely to develop any unity between them. North would still be pagan and south would be one of the last strongholds of Catholicism.

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

How? If al-Faransa exists that means that no unified German state arises. Because there is no Carolingians around and al-Faransa is unlikely to conquer both Saxony and Bavaria, which is required to form Germany. Germans couldn't defeat even Elbean Slavs by themselves by 300 years, with Muslims knocking next to their door they'd do better? And elites of al-Faransa aren't culturally Germanic (which Frankish ruling elites were to some extent), so they have no reason to suport German-speaking nobility. Not if said nobility views Muslims as a foreign oppresors and conquerors, which they certainly would. They wouldn't also conquer Saxony as soon as Charlemagne did, so Elbean Slavs have more time to form their own statehood, capable of resisting any Germanic attempt to expand east. Or they could be gobbled up by rising Poland, but it'd give the same result as before. Bohemia also won't pledge to (non-existent) German king, which means that German influence would be weaker there. IMHO if al-Faransa controls former Thuringia very loosely, the opposition of Germanic expansion could happen. Thuringia with central power close to non-existent is an invitation for Slavs to raid and Elbean Slavs were very experienced looter. Slavic pirates called "chąśnicy" sacked biggest Danish city (Hedeby) which was also capital of Denmark at the time of sack and were raiding a lot in Scandinavia.

I haven't put much thought on that, but seeing this, the germans are screwed, probably this will develop in a western slav-dominated Germany, with Saxony and Bavaria as germanic remains. But one thing, this will certainly cause a divide between High and Low German cultures, so...even less reasons to have a Germany.

And with the little research in wikipedia that i made now, i can say that we're not even far from the beggining of slav statehood, the Obotrites formed a confederacy in Pomerania that managed to conquer Schleswig by the end of the 8th century and Great Moravia was established in the beginning of the 9th century.

Heh, probably i'll need to make an update on Germany

 

[Nivek]

Yes. There will be Saxony, there will be Bavaria and there will be Muslim central regions. But they're unlikely to develop any unity between them. North would still be pagan and south would be one of the last strongholds of Catholicism.

I haven't put much thought on that, but seeing this, the germans are screwed, probably this will develop in a western slav-dominated Germany, with Saxony and Bavaria as germanic remains. But one thing, this will certainly cause a divide between High and Low German cultures, so...even less reasons to have a Germany.

And with the little research in wikipedia that i made now, i can say that we're not even far from the beggining of slav statehood, the Obotrites formed a confederacy in Pomerania that managed to conquer Schleswig by the end of the 8th century and Great Moravia was established in the beginning of the 9th century.

Heh, probably i'll need to make an update on Germany

Yeah as Al-Faransa changes everything plus the still remaning pagans are nice target of conquest and conversion.

 

[krieger]

I haven't put much thought on that, but seeing this, the germans are screwed, probably this will develop in a western slav-dominated Germany, with Saxony and Bavaria as germanic remains. But one thing, this will certainly cause a divide between High and Low German cultures, so...even less reasons to have a Germany.

And with the little research in wikipedia that i made now, i can say that we're not even far from the beggining of slav statehood, the Obotrites formed a confederacy in Pomerania that managed to conquer Schleswig by the end of the 8th century and Great Moravia was established in the beginning of the 9th century.

Heh, probably i'll need to make an update on Germany o

Obodrites lived in the land west of Pomerania, the easternmost part of that land became duchy of Meckleburg (ruled by a descendants of Obodrite ruling house IOTL to 1918 and dissolution of German Empire). In the time of Charlemagne, Veleti (another Slavic tribe east of Elbe akin to Obodrites) formed a strong confederation under grand duke Drogowit, which helped Charlemagne to defeat the Saxons. Charlemagne didn't even bother to baptize them, he was content with having them as a vassals and he interfered in their politics, causing this confederation to dissolve after Drogowit passed out. It led to dislike of monarchical form of goverment among Elbean Slavs, which wouldn't be a thing ITTL. Moravia (if it even emerge ITTL, which isn't certain, a lot of Bohemian princes like this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech_(Bohemian_prince) were slain in the battles with Charlemagne, ITTL one of them can emerge as a contender for Moravians).

Yeah as Al-Faransa changes everything plus the still remaning pagans are nice target of conquest and conversion.

Conversion is rather hard to achieve, because even IOTL Christians which were closer had troubles with doing this and food restrictions imposed by islam (ban for pork) make it rather hard to survive in the forests of north. Either a very different version of islam will emerge in North, where eating pork isn't a sin or islam will not make it's way in the northern people.

 

[Nivek]

Conversion is rather hard to achieve, because even IOTL Christians which were closer had troubles with doing this and food restrictions imposed by islam (ban for pork) make it rather hard to survive in the forests of north. Either a very different version of islam will emerge in North, where eating pork isn't a sin or islam will not make it's way in the northern people.

A shame the secrets of Soy based protein are not know in europe yet, those could break that barrier,again some muslim could debate over the issue(if i'm wandering and the only food is pork...Allah would not say that pride killed me if was my last chance to survive), still dunno.

 

[krieger]

A shame the secrets of Soy based protein are not know in europe yet, those could break that barrier,again some muslim could debate over the issue(if i'm wandering and the only food is pork...Allah would not say that pride killed me if was my last chance to survive), still dunno.

I think that paganism would last at least until XIIth century (al-Faransa needs to get over itself and lacks manpower at the beginning of it's existence and then ibrahimites are a serious problem). Maybe there could be an islamic sect which claims that eating pork is not a sin.

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

I think that paganism would last at least until XIIth century (al-Faransa needs to get over itself and lacks manpower at the beginning of it's existence and then ibrahimites are a serious problem). Maybe there could be an islamic sect which claims that eating pork is not a sin.

Faransa really will not make a expansion against the germans for the problems that you already said. Any islamic expansion into the north (at least for the near future) will be made or by the ukhawias or by Bakhyia, or by sheer force of fate, too. Also, paganism will not be wiped out so soon, it will have a lot of time to stay alive.

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

I wonder how French and Dutch will develop in this timeline?

 

[Nivek]

I wonder how French and Dutch will develop in this timeline?

The Dutch are an imamnate and still muslim are very natural traders so might take the rhine for trade. Faransa was always the lands of knight..maybe they focus even more on Faris/Furusiyah? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furusiyya

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

I was talking about the languages of those places.

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

I was talking about the languages of those places.

French i already have some ideas about how it will develop, expect it to be like what happened to the persian language, since the muslim elite of Faransa will eventually francofy (and more soon than expected, since a amount of the frankish aristocracy already converted to Islam) for reasons previoulsy discussed.

Dutch i have to put some thought on it, but seeing now, will be at least, interesting...Everything depends on how the eventual standardization of dutch will develop, the language is Old Dutch, what in truth is a put-together of various dialects, ah, of course, the future of Bakhyia is also something that Dutch depends a lot with

The Dutch are an imamnate and still muslim are very natural traders so might take the rhine for trade. Faransa was always the lands of knight..maybe they focus even more on Faris/Furusiyah? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furusiyya

Faransa will need time (and the so needed and talked about manpower) to take what the franks left and go with that, but with the tools in hand, the Tariqids certainly will make Furusiyya a great deal in Faransa, they're of berber descent after all, some things never change, France is destined to be the land of knights

Bakhyia for now will be mainly focused in establishment, but apart from their faranish counterparts they will not be reclusive as they have the saxons to their east. Actually, because of that they will have the first large-scale muslim contact with the western slavs, with a common enemy too.

 

[krieger]

Faransa really will not make a expansion against the germans for the problems that you already said. Any islamic expansion into the north (at least for the near future) will be made or by the ukhawias or by Bakhyia, or by sheer force of fate, too. Also, paganism will not be wiped out so soon, it will have a lot of time to stay alive.

That's why I stated "at least" - with Byzantines weakened and islam with it's eating restrictions not suitable for a harsh climate of the north, paganism has it's chance to survive. Who knows, maybe sort of "reformed paganism" (like prince Vladimir tried to form before he converted to Christianity) could emerge and become main rival for islam. It could be Slavo-Nordic-Baltic analog of hinduism.

 

[Nivek]

I was talking about the languages of those places.

French i already have some ideas about how it will develop, expect it to be like what happened to the persian language, since the muslim elite of Faransa will eventually francofy (and more soon than expected, since a amount of the frankish aristocracy already converted to Islam) for reasons previoulsy discussed.

Dutch i have to put some thought on it, but seeing now, will be at least, interesting...Everything depends on how the eventual standardization of dutch will develop, the language is Old Dutch, what in truth is a put-together of various dialects, ah, of course, the future of Bakhyia is also something that Dutch depends a lot with

Talus already mentioned it, but for me, we could see a french evolved very unique and like mozarabic, adopting an arab like alphabet and seeing an alternate *french sounding a little unique and written in arabic. Dutch as we know is butterfly away unless Talos surprise us.

That's why I stated "at least" - with Byzantines weakened and islam with it's eating restrictions not suitable for a harsh climate of the north, paganism has it's chance to survive. Who knows, maybe sort of "reformed paganism" (like prince Vladimir tried to form before he converted to Christianity) could emerge and become main rival for islam. It could be Slavo-Nordic-Baltic analog of hinduism.

We could see something weird, maybe like that norse catholicism other tl do...