Earliest possible assault rifle, earliest plausible adoption
- Thread starter M79
- Start date
Although this is a rather clever sideways approach to the question, it's not actually true that Japan had breech-loading weapons "centuries before the west". The basic idea was fairly well-known, or at least repeatedly reinvented, and a few examples were even made (Henry VIII had one as a sporting gun, apparently, and he died with Tokugawa Ieyasu was only four years old). The problem was that while it was fairly obvious that some kind of breech-loading mechanism would make a better gun it was quite difficult to make one that would both not explode in the user's face and be cheap and easy to produce in quantities large enough that it could be a standard service weapon.
The introduction of breech-loaders had more to do with advances in manufacturing (particularly the ability to mass-produce items at high precision compared to previous efforts) than weapon design per se. I don't see any particular reason to suppose that Japan was better at these things than the West, at least not to the level of being a century+ ahead of OTL.
Deleted member 1487
It would certainly be interesting to see the Japanese have a 125 grain (same bullet the US used for their 'Pig Board' caliber study tests) 6.5mm Arisaka cartridge in a semi-auto or select fire rifle going into WW2. IOTL they did test the Pedersen rifle, though they left off the lubrication for the cartridge case, which caused endless malfunctions and the death of the project.
marathag
Banned
25 Remington 6.54mmx52 39,000psi overall length 64mm 1906
117 gr
2,350 fps
1,435 ft-lbf
6.5mmx50SR 6.7mmx50.4 38,000psi overall length 76mm 1902
139 gr
2,400 fps
1,778 ft-lbs
Deleted member 1487
I'd rather neck the Remington down to 6.25 or 6mm at that bullet weight or lighter.
Also those numbers for the Remington is a modern handload:
https://chuckhawks.com/25_remington.htm
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SwampTiger
Banned
I offered the Burton 1917 as an early assault rifle/machine carbine a while back. https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/winchester-burton-m1918-automatic-carbine.466846/
This would provide a reasonable early entry with few issues IF the original design worked. Alas, we do not have the trials test results. Have Winchester offer the gun to Russia, France or Italy for delivery by January 1918. Entry into frontline service before the end of the war.
This would provide a reasonable early entry with few issues IF the original design worked. Alas, we do not have the trials test results. Have Winchester offer the gun to Russia, France or Italy for delivery by January 1918. Entry into frontline service before the end of the war.
Deleted member 1487
Looking at the dimensions of the cartridge, it might be a good vehicle for a turn of the century .224 Valkyrie:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.224_Valkyrie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_Remington
In fact it might produce just about the same velocity with the same weight of bullet.
marathag
Banned
Was matching for closest in pressure. The Model 81 was good for 46,000psi with the 300 Savage
Picked those two cartridges, as the 25 Rem worked fine in an autoloader, so should the 6.5x50SR, given pre-WWI metallurgy
Deleted member 1487
Gotcha, wasn't quite sure what you were getting at in that post.
Any, have a Gun Jesus shooting video:
How about increased production of the select fire version of the M1907 Winchester? 8 lbs, 700 rpm, 20 round detachable magazines (with the ability to easily increase this to 30 or 40 rounds), .351 Winchester Self Loading (WSL) cartridge 180 gr, 1870 ft/s, 1400 ft/lb energy Perfect!https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1907
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.351 WSL Cartridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.351_Winchester_Self-Loading There's nothing revolutionary about today's hot new .350 Legend. Its semi-rimmed father was born in 1906!
.401 WSL .351 WSL .30 M1 Carbine
.401 WSL .351 WSL .30 M1 Carbine
well, the op technically covers the bar and Chauchat, but that's not in the spirit of things
and i think that the maxim patents start dropping of in 1902-1905, so that helps
but i think that it's unlikely to see a major military adopting anything prior to ww1, and only then as rear line/expedient weapon
formal adoption may be possible in 1938 if a design can fill the requirements of the light rifle contract
but having said that, revolutionary, paramilitary, and law enforcement might be more open to the idea,
ex.
china was under an arms embargo as of 1919, they might see a "light automatic rifle" as a way around that as "it's totally not an lmg, we swear" sort of thing
the us- mexican border conflict of the 1910's saw a number of us states fielding ranger companies, many prominent members of those companies had served in the spanish- american war and might be open to the idea
the fbi in the 1920's/30's purchased a number of colt monitors as well as thompson smgs and winchester/remington auto carbines, the right bit of prodding might push them towards a single rifle to replace the others
Was inspired by this thread to make this for the "TL-191: Yankee Joe" thread - https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-and-vehicles-of-the-u-s-armed-forces.452967/
Deleted member 1487
The simple blowback version meant the recoil was pretty brutal and the trajectory was pretty abysmal due to the really bad ballistics. It's basically a worse M1 Carbine.
sorry, there's no evidence that winchecher or the french army modified the 1907 to selective fire
it's likely a misinterpretation that keeps coming up because it's a cool idea
We have many posts going over assorted rifles and ammunition but none of them could be selected, no matter how cool or clever, without a change in the requirements of the militaries. What earliest POD could prompt an army to say 'we need assault rifles' (or some other term for the same thing). Unless that happens this nothing will change from OTL. The nearest thing to the OP that was OTL being looked for was the same full power battle rifle but in semi automatic form. We have hindsight but they did not. Something must make a true assault rifle seem a good idea. After that one can sort through the weapon and ammunition designs that might do the job. Even pre WW2 clever people may, and were, have been playing with the assault rifle concept but the armies were looking for, and buying, semi automatic battle rifles at best e.g. MAS40, M1, SVT40 etc. When you want affordable short range personal infantry firepower you went shopping for an SMG.
What will change this and when?
What will change this and when?
Driftless
Donor
One possibility: the various colonial wars, where your army/constabulary/gendarmerie may be caught in fire fights with local rebels or bandits, particularly in jungle or urban environments where long range accuracy isn't an issue. That might have worked for Britain in India, Africa, SW Asia; or France as well, or the US for the Banana Wars or the Philippines.
Deleted member 1487
It is pretty surprising that there wasn't an automatic rifle adopted before WW1 for colonial combat. The portability seems like it would have made it extraordinarily useful for that role. But then the British did test out the Cei Rigotti I assume for that role and if not for the damaged ammo perhaps would have been adopted pre-WW1.
There is also a question of logistics. Superior firepower needs a large ammunition supply which is easy(ish) with lorries and rail, hard with horses and wagons and a nightmare with pack mules and man packing. It was one reason why breech loaders and then magazine rifles came in with a dense railway network. One only has to look at the truly vast support train of bullock carts and elephants for the Indian Army to go on campaign in the 19th century. Fear that the troops would fire off all their ammunition and run out was not a deluded fantasy of some choleric retired Colonel but very real in the day. The internal combustion engine was a game changer as were railways before them.Which puts the POD into the post 1900 period for a general issue as the infantryman's personal weapon. You can see the bottlenecks even later with the Universal Carrier having load beds to take nothing larger than a box which could be carried forward by two men on foot.
marathag
Banned
Ammunition delivery was far outstripped by forage deliveries, even in Combat.
Look at the WWI RR stats.
So that 600 pounds of food per man, but two tons of fodder for each animal
Ammo is a pittance in comparison
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