Medieval America Mark III

I'm wondering if instead of the like the first renaissance the second happened in East Asia over Europe and North America. With clippers coming to the new world directly from Korea, China, Japan and even as far as India about a century after current events in Medieval America. Bringing with weaponry and technology reminiscent of the 18-19th centuries and colonizing the western regions of the new world once again, playing off local rivalries. Though with being closer to the Spanish-Portuguese colonization instead of the Anglo-french leaning more towards assimilation and intermarriage
I heavily doubt that would occur. Colonialism in this world would be very different.
 
Hmmm, White never speculated about plagues or illnesses.

What illnesses could be common in the new world outside of the usual culprits in the old world.

I imagine that the plague would be really common. Cholera, measles, smallpox etc.

Syphillis? Maybe some new illness borne by new world animals like turkeys?
A turkey disease is interesting. According to one of the threads, we have a continental plague in the 2400s.
 
I heavily doubt that would occur. Colonialism in this world would be very different.
Yeah, without a 'virgin' New World to propel Europe (or anywhere else, for that matter) to hyperdevelopment colonialism as we know it probably doesn't happen at all.

Hmmm, White never speculated about plagues or illnesses.

What illnesses could be common in the new world outside of the usual culprits in the old world.

I imagine that the plague would be really common. Cholera, measles, smallpox etc.

Syphillis? Maybe some new illness borne by new world animals like turkeys?
The bubonic plague is actually quite likely to make a comeback. It's endemic in the rodents of much of the American West, centered in New Mexico. It seems likely that as society and our means to control disease breaks down, what are currently just a few isolated cases could grow into a full blown epidemic. Perhaps early on in the New Middle Ages, lets say the 2200s, a plague sweeps out of New Mexico and rolls from West to East, in a sort of mirror of the Plague of Justinian. This plague and the devestation it causes, coupled with a drought/cold spell that I've mentioned a few times before, led to the rise of some of Medieval America's whackier societies.

The prospect of syphilis is particularly horrifying in the New Middle Ages. Genuinely uncertain how it's possible to really cope with that.
 

tehskyman

Banned
The prospect of syphilis is particularly horrifying in the New Middle Ages. Genuinely uncertain how it's possible to really cope with that.

Syphilis colonies? A more generally prudish regard to prostitution than was historically tolerated.

Also I think that greater amounts of trade with tropical regions means a greater likelyhood of tropical diseases transmitted from bats and shit spreading.
 
upload_2019-12-3_21-29-13.png The Hulking Vajrapani, guardian of the Buddha, destroys the demons of environmental ignorance in his righteous rage. (source)

Loved reading through the thread. Y'all want any Mexico posts?
 
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Yeah, without a 'virgin' New World to propel Europe (or anywhere else, for that matter) to hyperdevelopment colonialism as we know it probably doesn't happen at all.


The bubonic plague is actually quite likely to make a comeback. It's endemic in the rodents of much of the American West, centered in New Mexico. It seems likely that as society and our means to control disease breaks down, what are currently just a few isolated cases could grow into a full blown epidemic. Perhaps early on in the New Middle Ages, lets say the 2200s, a plague sweeps out of New Mexico and rolls from West to East, in a sort of mirror of the Plague of Justinian. This plague and the devestation it causes, coupled with a drought/cold spell that I've mentioned a few times before, led to the rise of some of Medieval America's whackier societies.

The prospect of syphilis is particularly horrifying in the New Middle Ages. Genuinely uncertain how it's possible to really cope with that.

I believe limited forms of colonialism would occur. Imagine something similar to Indian 'colonialism' in Indonesia or the settling of Arabs and Iranians (and transmission of their culture) in East Africa. However, it is unlikely we get the massive colonial empires formed by Europe in the 1400s-1900s.

A bubonic outbreak in the 2200s could indeed occur. Though if I remember correctly that there was also an outbreak of disease from the West in the 2400s. We can have both with perhaps the latter being a second, even deadlier wave or a different disease all together.

Syphilis would indeed be interesting.
 

tehskyman

Banned
It might be a bit early for mexico. We also haven't done any of the groundwork regarding population, possible states, trade routes in the Caribbean. I mean, we've been thinking about it, but none of it is official yet.
 
It might be a bit early for mexico. We also haven't done any of the groundwork regarding population, possible states, trade routes in the Caribbean. I mean, we've been thinking about it, but none of it is official yet.
Oh yes, that is true. We are at either North Carolina, Virginia or the USA now IIRC.
 
I've actually been looking into some papers/books on transportation in Mesoamerica/New Spain; I'll post what I find here. I've got some ideas for countries there but I'll not be fleshing them out until the groundwork is laid (likely transport routes, good/bad ports, areas of population density, probable crops/trade goods).

I've noticed the current focus on the Upper South but I don't want to clash with any still-in-progress chapters.
 
I've actually been looking into some papers/books on transportation in Mesoamerica/New Spain; I'll post what I find here. I've got some ideas for countries there but I'll not be fleshing them out until the groundwork is laid (likely transport routes, good/bad ports, areas of population density, probable crops/trade goods).

I've noticed the current focus on the Upper South but I don't want to clash with any still-in-progress chapters.
You can still spit out ideas. Just we are supposed to be focusing on the Upper South which if we finish quickly with the rest of America-Canada, we can move on to Mexico.
 

tehskyman

Banned
I've actually been looking into some papers/books on transportation in Mesoamerica/New Spain; I'll post what I find here. I've got some ideas for countries there but I'll not be fleshing them out until the groundwork is laid (likely transport routes, good/bad ports, areas of population density, probable crops/trade goods).

I've noticed the current focus on the Upper South but I don't want to clash with any still-in-progress chapters.

I've outlined some trade routes in some earlier posts

Good Ports, all the old Spanish cities, Brazillian cities :

Caribbean
Havana (an incredibly important trade hub), Veracruz, Maracaibo, Port au Prince, Santo Domingo, Guantanamo, Kingston

South Atlantic
Rio de Janairo, Salvador, Recife, Natal, Fortaleza,Florianopolis, Porto Alegre, Montevideo, Buenos Aires

Pacific
Puerto Montt, Concepcion, Valparais, Antofgasta and Arica (located in Atacama Desert), Lima, Guayaquil, Acapulco, Puerto Valarta
 

tehskyman

Banned
Also an interesting note, along the Atacama Coast from Arica to Antofagasta, 500km, there are just cliffs facing out onto the ocean. I'd imagine that in this world, these cliffs and the desert, would be one of the great wonders of the world.
 
Also an interesting note, along the Atacama Coast from Arica to Antofagasta, 500km, there are just cliffs facing out onto the ocean. I'd imagine that in this world, these cliffs and the desert, would be one of the great wonders of the world.
No doubt the haunt of cannibals and Pishtacos.
 
I've outlined some trade routes in some earlier posts

Good Ports, all the old Spanish cities, Brazillian cities :

Caribbean
Havana (an incredibly important trade hub), Veracruz, Maracaibo, Port au Prince, Santo Domingo, Guantanamo, Kingston

South Atlantic
Rio de Janairo, Salvador, Recife, Natal, Fortaleza,Florianopolis, Porto Alegre, Montevideo, Buenos Aires

Pacific
Puerto Montt, Concepcion, Valparais, Antofgasta and Arica (located in Atacama Desert), Lima, Guayaquil, Acapulco, Puerto Valarta
In one of the previous threads, Belem was a central trade hub turning it into a very wealthy city which had Amazon colonies.
 

tehskyman

Banned
Personally, I'm still unsure what should happen to the Amazon and Guyana and South America in general. On the one hand, rainforests in the old world did have states. Indonesia, Indochina and India all had powerful states. On the other hand, the central amazon seems pretty hostile to civilization.

So writing this out, I'd say that the southern amazon (where evidence of human civilization exists) would be able to host jungle states, who grow rice would be possible similar to the jungle civilizations of Thailand and Cambodia. Pretty much only the Central Amazon, Atacama, and Guyanan Highlands would lack civilization. The coasts of Guyana might have some sort of civilization. Also unsure what happens to the Brazillian interior, are there going to be Guanchos/Cowboys roaming the tropical plains?
 
Personally, I'm still unsure what should happen to the Amazon and Guyana and South America in general. On the one hand, rainforests in the old world did have states. Indonesia, Indochina and India all had powerful states. On the other hand, the central amazon seems pretty hostile to civilization.

So writing this out, I'd say that the southern amazon (where evidence of human civilization exists) would be able to host jungle states, who grow rice would be possible similar to the jungle civilizations of Thailand and Cambodia. Pretty much only the Central Amazon, Atacama, and Guyanan Highlands would lack civilization. The coasts of Guyana might have some sort of civilization. Also unsure what happens to the Brazillian interior, are there going to be Guanchos/Cowboys roaming the tropical plains?

I hope so. I love the idea of Brazilian nomads in the interior, menacing the eastern cities.
 
Personally, I'm still unsure what should happen to the Amazon and Guyana and South America in general. On the one hand, rainforests in the old world did have states. Indonesia, Indochina and India all had powerful states. On the other hand, the central amazon seems pretty hostile to civilization.

So writing this out, I'd say that the southern amazon (where evidence of human civilization exists) would be able to host jungle states, who grow rice would be possible similar to the jungle civilizations of Thailand and Cambodia. Pretty much only the Central Amazon, Atacama, and Guyanan Highlands would lack civilization. The coasts of Guyana might have some sort of civilization. Also unsure what happens to the Brazillian interior, are there going to be Guanchos/Cowboys roaming the tropical plains?

Personally for South America, I'd like to see a bunch of nations on the Guyanese coast (in previous threads they were very fanatical Christians) with Hindus, Muslims and other religious minorities fleeing to the central hills where they form an interesting blend of different religions and cultures as tribes who stop the coastal people from expanding further inland. Belem could be the site of a major trade hub and though I don't think civilization could be maintained in the Amazon (Pre-Columbian Amazon didn't have the diseases the modern Amazon imported from Africa's jungles), Belemite colonies could definetly exist along the Amazon and its tributaries with these colonies capturing slaves and cutting down trees whilst also maybe growing rice. The rest of the Amazon is just tribesmen trying to not get themselves enslaved.

Central America will be jungle with civilization along the coasts whilst Colombia and Venezuela would be a collection of kingdoms, city-states and duchies. In a previous thread they were united by a Venezuelan from Cartagena called Alejandro and I think we should go with that. Ecuador and the rest of the Andes would be divided with Amerindian kingdoms in the interior and Hispanic kingdoms on the coasts. In 3000 we could have an Andean kingdom based in Quito, a Catholic Peruvian kingdom and a Quechuchua mystic kingdom in the interior. Brazil could have many kingdoms whilst in the interior there are nomads who raid the Amazon for slaves sold to the eastern kingdoms. Argentina and La Plata are a Hispanophone zone and to their south (south of Buenos Aires) are nomads who spread to the very tip of South America.
 

tehskyman

Banned
Personally for South America, I'd like to see a bunch of nations on the Guyanese coast (in previous threads they were very fanatical Christians) with Hindus, Muslims and other religious minorities fleeing to the central hills where they form an interesting blend of different religions and cultures as tribes who stop the coastal people from expanding further inland. Belem could be the site of a major trade hub and though I don't think civilization could be maintained in the Amazon (Pre-Columbian Amazon didn't have the diseases the modern Amazon imported from Africa's jungles), Belemite colonies could definetly exist along the Amazon and its tributaries with these colonies capturing slaves and cutting down trees whilst also maybe growing rice. The rest of the Amazon is just tribesmen trying to not get themselves enslaved.

Central America will be jungle with civilization along the coasts whilst Colombia and Venezuela would be a collection of kingdoms, city-states and duchies. In a previous thread they were united by a Venezuelan from Cartagena called Alejandro and I think we should go with that. Ecuador and the rest of the Andes would be divided with Amerindian kingdoms in the interior and Hispanic kingdoms on the coasts. In 3000 we could have an Andean kingdom based in Quito, a Catholic Peruvian kingdom and a Quechuchua mystic kingdom in the interior. Brazil could have many kingdoms whilst in the interior there are nomads who raid the Amazon for slaves sold to the eastern kingdoms. Argentina and La Plata are a Hispanophone zone and to their south (south of Buenos Aires) are nomads who spread to the very tip of South America.

I dont think we have to be constrained by what other threads did before us.

Dropping these maps https://legacy.lib.utexas.edu/maps/americas.html

Addressing individual regions: Central America is not constrained by coast vs non-coastal regions. Like Indonesia, Central America is dominated more by the fertility of the soil than anything else. So proximity to Volcanoes is important. So you'd get a line of small kingdoms (dominated by Mexico) along the Pacific Coast until Panama. In addition, weathering from the Mountains of Honduras and Guatemala should also allow agriculture in the valleys. There wouldn't be civilization along the Atlantic coast in Nicaragua, that area is pure swamp and even today doesn't host agriculture. Same thing with Panama.

It'd look something like this

upload_2019-12-6_16-54-40.png


I agree with your assessment of Colombia and Venezuela, I'd add that the interior plain of Venezuela is savanna and would probably host some cowboys/agriculture

I don't think that the Andes would be split between Amerindians and Hispanics. Largely because the Amerindian groups have interbred into the larger Hispanic population. IMO, Peru & Bolivia have become like Persia which expands along the mountains complete with it's own wacky Inca/Catholic hybrid.

For the Amazon, I did not consider that the modern Amazon is more inhospitable than the pre-Columbian Amazon but that is interesting. IDK if a state centered around Belem (Para), would be colonizing the Amazon as much as it would be expanding outwards radially and possibly fighting the State of Maranhao.

I agree with how you think of Brazil, same with the La plata region
 
SNIP
I agree with your assessment of Colombia and Venezuela, I'd add that the interior plain of Venezuela is savanna and would probably host some cowboys/agriculture

I don't think that the Andes would be split between Amerindians and Hispanics. Largely because the Amerindian groups have interbred into the larger Hispanic population. IMO, Peru & Bolivia have become like Persia which expands along the mountains complete with it's own wacky Inca/Catholic hybrid.

For the Amazon, I did not consider that the modern Amazon is more inhospitable than the pre-Columbian Amazon but that is interesting. IDK if a state centered around Belem (Para), would be colonizing the Amazon as much as it would be expanding outwards radially and possibly fighting the State of Maranhao.

I agree with how you think of Brazil, same with the La plata region

I agree we don't need to be constrained but personally I wouldn't mind following in the previous thread's footsteps. Of course, we should change stuff if we want our own ideas.

In regards to Central America, I would agree with you. A coast vs inland view is a very simplistic one.

Perhaps the interior plan of Venezuela could be to the coastal regions and mountains what Columbia is to Cascadia. I do believe the inhabitants of this plain would be semi-nomadic or they would rule over a farmer population as nomadic elites.

I should have been more clear. When I say Hispanic and Amerindian, I mean linguistically because IIRC there are still many Amerindian speakers in Peru. Physically, there would be little to no difference between the two groups but the linguistics and even culture would be different. I like the idea that the entire Latin world is similar to the Islamic world in how they perceive themselves and the Andes being like Persia is indeed an interesting comparison.

Perhaps Belem could have a massive business of capturing Amazonian slaves and selling them to work in ships and the islands which are constantly being depopulated by warfare, disease and environment. It uses this wealth made from its colonies (nothing more than outposts which produce their own rice and capture slaves) to then expand its influence outwards and ends up fighting the State of Maranhao.

It would be interesting seeing how the Portuguese-speakers and Spanish-speakers would interact in La Plata and who would come out on top.
 
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