HMS EAGLE in the Falklands

[JamesHunter]

That would be my fear, too. No, I think the Hornet really is the better fit for what they're designing.

The real question is what they'd follow on with once Hornet production lines are shut down, and by that time, the Tomcats won't be an option, either.

Well the Hornet is easily capable into the 2020's (as OTL) and boeing will still make parts so it isn't absolutely urgent. As its mentioned the ship design has some growth room they can probably mix in a few Super hornets then use whatever alt F-35 comes along in the late 2010's. By that point it will be time to build a replacement class(assuming a forty year lifespan as the Indy's would have had minus the defence review) so possibly the Tempest will have a carrier version in this universe.

In terms of a sea Typhoon the timing is wrong, during development the Hornets will be all but brand new and so there is no reason to develop an expensive new bird when there is no need for it. By the time the Hornet is approaching replacement the Eurofighter program will be near its end and building a 4.5 gen fighter when a 5th gen is only years away will be seen as pointless.

Also the TL has made no mention of FEFA and indeed the massive hornet buy seems to have replaced it so if there is a pan European fighter program the UK seems uninvolved.

 

[SsgtC]

That would be my fear, too. No, I think the Hornet really is the better fit for what they're designing.

The real question is what they'd follow on with once Hornet production lines are shut down, and by that time, the Tomcats won't be an option, either.

Either the Super Bug or the Super Tomcat, depending on which aircraft the USN selects. Or maybe even an ATL new design

 

[JamesHunter]

Either the Super Bug or the Super Tomcat, depending on which aircraft the USN selects. Or maybe even an ATL new design

Any Tomcat is still to big, you're back to the issues Eagle had cramming enough phantoms on board to do the job. Meanwhile Super hornet is six metres narrower (compared to a Tomcat at full extension), a metre shorter and has properly folding wings. That alone will probably see it get the nod.

 

[SsgtC]

Any Tomcat is still to big, you're back to the issues Eagle had cramming enough phantoms on board to do the job. Meanwhile Super hornet is six metres narrower (compared to a Tomcat at full extension), a metre shorter and has properly folding wings. That alone will probably see it get the nod.

Only if the USN selects the Super Hornet. If the USN decides to buy Super Tomcats, then the Royal Navy will have to either go with them or buy a clean sheet design

 

[Schlock]

That's if the Super Bug gets developed. It looks like the F-14D is going to be getting a much longer production run than OTL, maybe enough to kill the need/requirement for the F-18E/F/G. Maybe we'll get to see a dedicated F-14E strike variant instead?

 

[Zheng He]

Only if the USN selects the Super Hornet. If the USN decides to buy Super Tomcats, then the Royal Navy will have to either go with them or buy a clean sheet design

Smart play would be to go 5th Generation after they've run the Baby Hornets into the ground.

 

[Athelstane]

Any Tomcat is still to big, you're back to the issues Eagle had cramming enough phantoms on board to do the job. Meanwhile Super hornet is six metres narrower (compared to a Tomcat at full extension), a metre shorter and has properly folding wings. That alone will probably see it get the nod.

Yeah, that seems most likely to me, too. And there's just enough commonality that adapting ship systems and personnel to it will be less of a reach than any kind of Tom would be.

And since the USN had gone all in on the the Super Hornet, the RN can benefit from the resulting economies of scale.

 

[Athelstane]

Only if the USN selects the Super Hornet. If the USN decides to buy Super Tomcats, then the Royal Navy will have to either go with them or buy a clean sheet design

One wishes we had!

But too much was lined up against the Super Toms, politically. I think you have to work harder to change the dynamics to get it procured.

 

[Zheng He]

One wishes we had!

But too much was lined up against the Super Toms, politically. I think you have to work harder to change the dynamics to get it procured.

Mainly extend the Cold War by another five years .

 

[JamesHunter]

Yeah, that seems most likely to me, too. And there's just enough commonality that adapting ship systems and personnel to it will be less of a reach than any kind of Tom would be.

And since the USN had gone all in on the the Super Hornet, the RN can benefit from the resulting economies of scale.

True although I guess it depends if the 14-D actually reaches service this time. Although money and the end of the Cold War might still do it in as OTL. Ultimately the Super Hornet is closer to what the UK wants (Jack of all trades) and needs as attack is always gonna be a bit of an afterthought in any tomcat design.

Mainly extend the Cold War by another five years .

Its unlikely to change over much, the problems will all be coming home to roost very soon and Gorby's rise has already begun. At most butterflies might prevent Chernobyl and buy the SU itself a little extra time but after 1983-84 there is always going to be a strong "This has to end," feeling on both sides. In Russia that was because sitting on the Pact and keeping up militarily was getting to hard as all their economies frayed and in America because Reagan had seen "The Day after" and had a serious "What have I been doing?" moment.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Perhaps the British hitch their cart to the A12 Avenger II (OTL there was talk about using it to replace the Tonka in RAF service) which was due to first fly in 1990 and then after that is cancelled go with the F/A 18 Hornet with a view to go full F/A 18 Super Hornet as soon as that is in production.

Unless the US continue F14 development and production then I cannot see Britain going the Tomcat route.....but what if.....?????

 

[Zheng He]

Has anyone done an F-15 in RAF markings?

 

[JamesHunter]

Perhaps the British hitch their cart to the A12 Avenger II (OTL there was talk about using it to replace the Tonka in RAF service) which was due to first fly in 1990 and then after that is cancelled go with the F/A 18 Hornet with a view to go full F/A 18 Super Hornet as soon as that is in production.

Unless the US continue F14 development and production then I cannot see Britain going the Tomcat route.....but what if.....?????

UK has already committed to buying two hundred Hornets so its unlikely they'll buy into the A-12 due to all the money they're already spending on their various projects ITTL.

Interesting fixed wing 'Cat although it looks like it still has its usual massive size problem. If those wings are still about 20m across and fold half way down that still means its likely to take up more storage space that the Hornet stepsisters would. Also probably taller with folded wings as well leading to the usual storage nuisances.

 

[Zheng He]

Another issue (was just reading the FY93 Defense Appropriations Language, exciting stuff I assure you) - the F-18 (yes in this case Baby Hornets) beats the F-14 hands down in the categories of safety, reliability, maintenance, cost per flying hour, maintenance personnel per squadron and all of that boring stuff goes into the cost of keeping combat aircraft in the sky, particularly important for smaller countries.

 

[WILDGEESE]

Either the Super Bug or the Super Tomcat, depending on which aircraft the USN selects. Or maybe even an ATL new design

Would a navalised Tornado F-3 . . . a possible Sea Tornado work?

 

[alspug]

no . It was underpowered for Catapult Launchers for a start . It was designed for long range Interceptor roles . Great from big land bases .

 

[Spencersj345.346]

Another issue (was just reading the FY93 Defense Appropriations Language, exciting stuff I assure you) - the F-18 (yes in this case Baby Hornets) beats the F-14 hands down in the categories of safety, reliability, maintenance, co

no . It was underpowered for Catapult Launchers for a start . It was designed for long range Interceptor roles . Great from big land bases .

In essence if you want a carrier version of the Tornado to exist you need to give it new more powerful engines and probably attach JATO rockets to boot.

 

[Blue cat]

Actually from what I understand the Bombcat upgrade was a pretty cost effective and low effort affair because the main thing they did was marry it up with the LANTIRN pod which was straight off the shelf. There were more ambitious (and more costly) upgrades proposed but they didn't go anywhere.

Yeah.. I seem to recall reading a couple of decades ago in an industry publication that the F14 had a basic ground attack capability to build on when the bombcat program was under taken.

 

[Blue cat]

Smart play would be to go 5th Generation after they've run the Baby Hornets into the ground.

Yep... If needed I suspect some extra legacy hornet air frames could have been obtained from some of the other operators.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Another issue (was just reading the FY93 Defense Appropriations Language, exciting stuff I assure you) - the F-18 (yes in this case Baby Hornets) beats the F-14 hands down in the categories of safety, reliability, maintenance, cost per flying hour, maintenance personnel per squadron and all of that boring stuff goes into the cost of keeping combat aircraft in the sky, particularly important for smaller countries.

Yes what Zheng He Says - absolutely kills the F14 as a possible replacement for the Phantom

Also with the Development of the AIM 120 AMRAAM during the 90s - with the C version pushing the range up continuously during the latter point of the Decade making along with what were often restrictive RoE in place, the AIM 54 Phoenix (a heavy missile system) to all intents and purposes redundant.

UK has already committed to buying two hundred Hornets so its unlikely they'll buy into the A-12 due to all the money they're already spending on their various projects ITTL.

Interesting fixed wing 'Cat although it looks like it still has its usual massive size problem. If those wings are still about 20m across and fold half way down that still means its likely to take up more storage space that the Hornet stepsisters would. Also probably taller with folded wings as well leading to the usual storage nuisances.

It was significantly shorter than the Hornet / Tomcat and Intruder making the carrier hanger and deck placement game of tetris easier for the crew - not sure how high it would be folded but from the below picture it does seem that they folded almost flat?