AHC: post-1942 Luftwaffe 'sanity options'

[Johnrankins]

As in trying to get Germany lose as soon as possible and me without getting shot - at least immediately

I think we both had the same idea, not only wreck the German military but do it in such a way that it feeds Hitler's delusions. Less likely to get shot and Hitler's delusions were more than enough to wreck the German military.

 

[tomo pauk]

Bf 109 was outclassed by 1943 by the P-51 and Yak 3

Not by 1943, especially not by Yak-3 that didn't existed in 1943 as a service-worthy aircraft.

the Ta 152 was a better choice for a primary fighter, with the Ta 154 for bomber interception, Do 335 as a strike fighter, and Ho 229 as a stealth fighter

No Jumo 213E or no DB 603L = no Ta 152.
Ta 154 as-is will not go anywhere. Do-335 - great thing if you can have enough of engines and fuel, that was not exactly German situation.
Ho 229 - let's make a bomber out of it?

 

[Paolo Giusti]

Not by 1943, especially not by Yak-3 that didn't existed in 1943 as a service-worthy aircraft.



No Jumo 213E or no DB 603L = no Ta 152.
Ta 154 as-is will not go anywhere. Do-335 - great thing if you can have enough of engines and fuel, that was not exactly German situation.

In fact, my proposal was a turbo'd FWg190 B to avoid the Bf-109 G as Ha fighters and to get scale efficency on that fighter. But an old post of Just Leo states that turbo'd BMW 801 was impossible earlier and I hate multy-POD.

 

[Hammerbolt]

Mass-production has to focus on engines, to be issued for Italians as well.

Even better: allow any ally that wants it, license construction of engines and/aircraft. Improve the allies without overtaxing german industry.

 

[tomo pauk]

In fact, my proposal was a turbo'd FWg190 B to avoid the Bf-109 G as Ha fighters and to get scale efficency on that fighter. But an old post of Just Leo states that turbo'd BMW 801 was impossible earlier and I hate multy-POD.

Somehow it became fashionable for people to either rank Bf 109G as a so-so fighter, or to dismiss it all together. While the 109G was not an ideal fighter, there was still a lot of mileage in it, and it killed a lot of Allied aircraft and crewmen.
The turboed BMW 801 was certailnly possible, and it was manufactured in more examples than Jumo 213E that powered the Ta-152H.
this link
Just Leo said this (my emphasis): "BMW informed the RLM that a turbocharged 801 could not be developed within allowed time constraints."

 

[marathag]

Iranians and Iraqis, both of which are pro-Axis, liberate both countries and u literally have all the oil in the world

Not in this time period. US was top producer, followed by the USSR
USA 182.657 Mt
USSR 29.700 Mt
Venezuela 27.443 Mt
Persia 10.426 Mt
Indonesia 7.939 Mt
Mexico 6.721 Mt
Romania 5.764 Mt
Columbia 3.636 Mt
Iraq 3.438 Mt

Even if they get both Countries, they got no way to get oil back to Germany

 

[Gunnarnz]

...The V1 could be intercepted...

Yes. It was also inaccurate, hardly ever landed anywhere near its target, and was generally an ineffective form of area bombing.

But...

It was also cheap and easy to make, used no strategic materials that I'm aware of, and caused the Western Allies to devote a great deal of effort, manpower, and machinery to neutralising the threat. All those guns, aircraft, and people could have been used on the frontlines, but instead they were waiting for doodlebugs which hardly did any damage anyway. As a return on investment, it's not bad. You could make a decent case for the V1 programme as being highly effective if you look at the big picture.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Not by 1943, especially not by Yak-3 that didn't existed in 1943 as a service-worthy aircraft.



No Jumo 213E or no DB 603L = no Ta 152.
Ta 154 as-is will not go anywhere. Do-335 - great thing if you can have enough of engines and fuel, that was not exactly German situation.
Ho 229 - let's make a bomber out of it?

These are only potential developments. The Ho 229 had a better turn rate than the Me 262 and it had a stealth element as well.
And the whole fast bomber concept was utter BS, it held back development of the Ar 234, and it held up development of planes that would have made excellent fighters.
Convincing Hitler would have been easy has having him observe the aftermath of an USAF/RAF air raid on a residential area instead of hiding like a coward in his bunker. Call it a propaganda moment using Goebbels's words. He would have wanted fighters immediately to protect the German people. And axe Goering because he's literally stupid and useless.
Putting women on the production line would have helped as well as declaring total war in Nov. 1941.
Germany might have still had a chance against the Allies.

 

[Hammerbolt]

Yes. It was also inaccurate, hardly ever landed anywhere near its target, and was generally an ineffective form of area bombing.

But...

It was also cheap and easy to make, used no strategic materials that I'm aware of, and caused the Western Allies to devote a great deal of effort, manpower, and machinery to neutralising the threat. All those guns, aircraft, and people could have been used on the frontlines, but instead they were waiting for doodlebugs which hardly did any damage anyway. As a return on investment, it's not bad. You could make a decent case for the V1 programme as being highly effective if you look at the big picture.

Specially if you get it up and running a year earlier. In 44 it took the fastest fighters the RAF had to do it, the Tempest, and modified Spitfire XIV and Thunderbolts. But if it starts attacking in early 1943...

 

[marathag]

Germany might have still had a chance against the Allies

Still ends with buckets of Instant Sunshine before 1946 is out.

It's almost like Doctor Who, it's one of those fixed events.

Especially since in 1942, small scale test Reactors had been tested since September 1941 in some US Universities The one being built in Chicago, that was the largest, example #29 and the first expected to get close to reaching a k of over 1

 

[tomo pauk]

These are only potential developments. The Ho 229 had a better turn rate than the Me 262 and it had a stealth element as well.
And the whole fast bomber concept was utter BS, it held back development of the Ar 234, and it held up development of planes that would have made excellent fighters.

Fast bomber concept worked, it would've been even better with jet engines powering it.
I have no problems with Ho 229 being turned into a useful hardware, however stealth element is/was overblown. Let's recall that Allies have detecting the V1 by radar, and even the outgoing shells fired by their battleships.

 

[Paolo Giusti]

Somehow it became fashionable for people to either rank Bf 109G as a so-so fighter, or to dismiss it all together. While the 109G was not an ideal fighter, there was still a lot of mileage in it, and it killed a lot of Allied aircraft and crewmen.

Indeed. I only thought start production of a new design would be better than push over an older one (at least, do not go on after G).

The turboed BMW 801 was certailnly possible, and it was manufactured in more examples than Jumo 213E that powered the Ta-152H.
this link
Just Leo said this (my emphasis): "BMW informed the RLM that a turbocharged 801 could not be developed within allowed time constraints."

Indeed:

But an old post of Just Leo states that turbo'd BMW 801 was impossible earlier

 

[Paolo Giusti]

Specially if you get it up and running a year earlier. In 44 it took the fastest fighters the RAF had to do it, the Tempest, and modified Spitfire XIV and Thunderbolts. But if it starts attacking in early 1943...

V1 only missed a mobile launch pad. I dream a RATO-V1 on a Panzerwerfer instead of Baby Blitz.

 

[tomo pauk]

Back to the (fast) bomber. Ju 88 is good, if a bit too slow, especially vs. 'West', much due to carrying proper bombs outside. Do 217 can haul well, but again it was not a speed demon. He 111 will not cut it. He 177 - nope. Jet bombers - okay, but there is still 1942-43 to cover without them.
Make the ALT 'Ta 154' in metal, as a bomber? ALT He 219 as a bomber? Small Ju 288 with BMW 801s?

 

[Paolo Giusti]

Back to the (fast) bomber. Ju 88 is good, if a bit too slow, especially vs. 'West', much due to carrying proper bombs outside.

Was compartmentalized bomb bay avoidable/solvable? This would solve drag problem.

 

[Gunnarnz]

V1 only missed a mobile launch pad. I dream a RATO-V1 on a Panzerwerfer instead of Baby Blitz.

If you have a RATO V1, you might also be able to switch to a ramjet instead of a pulsejet. ISTR 300mph is the magic number for that to function. On the other hand, if you make the V1 much faster then it becomes closer to being uninterceptable, and so the WAllies might decide there's no point in trying and thus not divert the resources to do so. Difficult decision...

 

[Paolo Giusti]

If you have a RATO V1, you might also be able to switch to a ramjet instead of a pulsejet. ISTR 300mph is the magic number for that to function. On the other hand, if you make the V1 much faster then it becomes closer to being uninterceptable, and so the WAllies might decide there's no point in trying and thus not divert the resources to do so. Difficult decision...

Indeed, I propose RATO to avoid long launchpad and make mobile launchpad possible.
Making V1 supersonic cancels its best quality: being interceptable.

EDIT I also wonder: waste-fueled Wasserfall engine could trade speed for range?

 

[thaddeus]

my timeline for a fast bomber or recon/bomber is always HE-119/HE-219 (not the historical He-219, but rather adding a second "power system")/HE-319 (a Heinkel "Blitz" or a "mash-up" if you will of AR-234/HE-343)

with all of the above eclipsing the HE-177, also this speculation is only for 100 - 200 year

 

[BlackDragon98]

Fast bomber concept worked, it would've been even better with jet engines powering it.
I have no problems with Ho 229 being turned into a useful hardware, however stealth element is/was overblown. Let's recall that Allies have detecting the V1 by radar, and even the outgoing shells fired by their battleships.

The Ho 229 was tested by the Smithsonian and it did have less of a radar footprint than the Bf 109.
It had about 80% the footprint of a Bf 109, which in the 1940s was pretty good considering the tech back then.
The only good faster bomber was the Ar 234 because it had 4 engines and had decent low altitude speed as well.
The other jets were better as bomber destroyers and fighters to counter the Allied bombing raids.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Still ends with buckets of Instant Sunshine before 1946 is out.

It's almost like Doctor Who, it's one of those fixed events.

Especially since in 1942, small scale test Reactors had been tested since September 1941 in some US Universities The one being built in Chicago, that was the largest, example #29 and the first expected to get close to reaching a k of over 1

POD what if the Luftwaffe shoots down the aircraft carrying the nuke?