Twilight of the Red Tsar

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Well, it's not that the west is much more eager than OTL ( just ask Persia) but only that the player are different; a success on Suez mean that France and British influence in ME is still strong while Nasserism will be dead in the water and so the local population will need to rally around other ideology.
American support mean that France (or better De Gaulle) will not feel the need to go alone and leave NATO command structure (on the other hand we can see a perception that the EDC will be the most important part of the european military infrastructure, expecially if the UK is bring in as planned).
Israel at this stage can easily continue to be more a Anlgo-French ally than an american (Israel was and probably be a little too far left for ITTL USA...but with the second holocaust it will be very.... let's say impolite to attack it or not support them)

I would assume that the Jews might well become anti-Socialist in TTL. The Nazis were National Socialists and the Communists were International Socialists and both had committed anti-Jewish atrocities that would make the Tsarists blush. With Nazism=Communism in TTL the Jews could become much more economically conservative and stalwart anti-Socialists. After all the two biggest anti-Jewish governments in TTL's history claim to be Socialists.
 
I would assume that the Jews might well become anti-Socialist in TTL. The Nazis were National Socialists and the Communists were International Socialists and both had committed anti-Jewish atrocities that would make the Tsarists blush. With Nazism=Communism in TTL the Jews could become much more economically conservative and stalwart anti-Socialists. After all the two biggest anti-Jewish governments in TTL's history claim to be Socialists.
I know this argument is BS, but I suspect that "ThE nAZiS wErE lEfT-wInG" arguments will be even more popular than IOTL.
 
I know this argument is BS, but I suspect that "ThE nAZiS wErE lEfT-wInG" arguments will be even more popular than IOTL.
Their conceptions of right and left would be fairly different in general. I mean, Nixon didn't pass Civil Rights on this TL? Add the eventual many minority inmigrant groups with grudges to Communism and the existence of Ethnic Hate groups on the Left.
The Chat section of the AH.com of such a world would be...interesting
 
I would assume that the Jews might well become anti-Socialist in TTL. The Nazis were National Socialists and the Communists were International Socialists and both had committed anti-Jewish atrocities that would make the Tsarists blush. With Nazism=Communism in TTL the Jews could become much more economically conservative and stalwart anti-Socialists. After all the two biggest anti-Jewish governments in TTL's history claim to be Socialists.
I figure opposition to Blood&Soil nationalism will remain a very major thing for the Jewish Diaspora, so odds are Left Of Center (although more syndicalist ITTL) will remain the more common inclination.
 
I figure opposition to Blood&Soil nationalism will remain a very major thing for the Jewish Diaspora, so odds are Left Of Center (although more syndicalist ITTL) will remain the more common inclination.

It depends, Blood & Soil nationalism is more socially right of center not economically. Libertarians among others are hardly Blood & Soil while both Mao and Stalin were pretty close to being Blood and Soil nationalists. However, syndicalist might well be the way it goes.

That said both the Nazis and the Communists were to the left economically, Nazi Germany intervened in the market around as much as Stalinist Russia. It had four instead of five year plans, dictated wages, dictated prices and most of the economy revolved around government purchases even before the war. If you read Hitler's speeches he raged against capitalists much like Lenin and Stalin did.
 
The other part of economic reform was new policies. As a result of the purges, massive military spending, and other factors the growth rate of the Soviet economy had fallen by half, from 6% from 1951-1955 to 3% in 1955-1958.

I don't see how the growth rate could possibly be positive for the USSR in this TL. Between the Sino-Soviet War and Stalin purging anyone who looks at him the wrong, or whom he thinks will look at him the wrong way in the future, or looks at him the right way but he is in a bad mood I think -6% or less more likely than +3% growth.
 
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Yes, but he was never really hardcore about it. He was interested in making friends with the US before Nixon's debacle, and Soviet money came pouring in. His main political motivation seems to be Cuban nationalism, and with Communism even more thoroughly discredited than it is OTL (though Che's open Stalinism will probably result in his staying true to the cause) I can easily see him pragmatically dumping any serious notion of Socialist revolution if it would imperil Cuban Independence. I can't imagine many Independence leaders will want to open align themselves with a bloc that has repeatedly betrayed its allies (turning East Europe into their imperial domain, abandoning China to nukes before nuking it themselves, and letting their few Arab allies get steamrolled) to such an extent that you can't trust one guarantee made by the Kremlin, simultaneouly risking the ire of a bloc that is vastly more powerful militarily, economically, and politically.

Yeah, I don't see how many Third World countries could even think of going Socialist. You risk getting nuked by the Americans if you do (or at least it would seem that you might be risking that) or being nuked by the Russians if you aren't sufficiently Socialist. The replacement is likely syndicalism as that would be less worrying to Washington and seems to be the replacement in Europe. Labor unions are still strong in the US in OTL at this point and may well be stronger in TTL.
 
Well Brezhnev happened and it took a decade for the USSR to fall still.

So it seems that Soviet Agriculture is not going to be fixed which will cause many issues down the road and in OTL the hardliners gaining power again did seem to hasten the fall of the USSR so I'm curious to see if something similar happened TTL.

Also it seems Nixon is vindicated in not responding to rapprochement attempts from Malenkov.

Compared to what is left in Soviet leadership Brezhnev is the epitome of competence, incorruptibility and compassion.
 
I know this argument is BS, but I suspect that "ThE nAZiS wErE lEfT-wInG" arguments will be even more popular than IOTL.

Well, considering how the Nazis and the Communists were already pretty similar OTL, that certainly is true. Both groups were guilty of invasion, genocide, and mass murder before the TTL events.

So, to the average person who doesn't know history, there is a clear correlation between the two groups.



I would assume that the Jews might well become anti-Socialist in TTL. The Nazis were National Socialists and the Communists were International Socialists and both had committed anti-Jewish atrocities that would make the Tsarists blush. With Nazism=Communism in TTL the Jews could become much more economically conservative and stalwart anti-Socialists. After all the two biggest anti-Jewish governments in TTL's history claim to be Socialists.

Well..

TTL Ideologies have been horrible for Jews. OTL Communism was supposed to bring about true equality, which is why many Jews joined the Soviets.

I don't see how the growth rate could possibly be positive for the USSR in this TL. Between the Sino-Soviet War and Stalin purging anyone who looks at him the wrong, or whom he thinks will look at him the wrong way in the future, or looks at him the right way but he is in a bad mood I think -6% or less more likely than +3% growth.

Remember, the USSR still has a shit ton of resources.
 
The new soviet leaderships will probably lavish the Egyptian revolutionary with aid and weapons (even if they will really don't like the religious tone of that revolution), as they will do with any possible ally (like Indonesia) due to their pretty much isolation and great difficulty to strike back to the US/NATO in many places.
This bring the sitaution of the non-aligned movement; ITTL Nasser and Baath'ism place can be taken by the islam revolution...that's a 'little' less palatable internationally and while will hit the right string in many third world country regarding the will to fight the western empires, the need to grow up and be strong the the bright future, will also fail to make a lot of friend in the western young generations (sorry, i doubt that in the 60's at the dawn of the sexual revolution and the home of the swinging London, the youngster will feel very attracted by people that make look their parents extremely liberals and hippie-like) and this can create a lot of difference between ITTL 68 (or similar event) and OTL;

The Soviet economy is a train wreck. I doubt they have enough money to fund anything but the smallest revolution. At this moment the situation is so unstable at home their first and last instinct is to save themselves and not worry about abroad.

Expect even the late 1960's to be a hell of a lot more conservative. Everyone is more on edge. Stalin lasted until the late 1950's and quite likely exceeded Hitler in evil. The world is more tumultuous and the Red Scare was deeper and longer. This makes people more cautious.
 
A ton of resources doesn't do much good if all the people who know how to put it to good use have all been shot.

Well, that's why sanctions didn't work immediately. It was only when, as you said, that there was mismanagement and no America to send grain that the system came crashing down.
 
The army and police are probably in a state of disarray and many will probably gladly not interfere with people trying to get away so if people are quick and daring enough a lot of person can get away, other places are the various embassies, as OTL thousands of refugee can try to forcibly enter there.
While many will be captured, wounded and even killed still it's very probable that a sizeble numbers of east european will come in west europe

Particularly since a large part of the "native" armies joined the people.
 
That might be true, though remember that what was centrism in the early 1960s' would be considered a radical social liberal today. Support for a welfare state, labor unions, fair trade and government intervention goes at odds with Third Way, which is just a nice way of saying corporatism.

TTL centrism will take a radically different meaning.

My opinion on East Europe if it does liberate itself from Soviet tyranny:

-lack of neoliberalism and the presence of post-war consensus will mean that there will be no shock therapy. East European economies will be stronger and a much smoother transition to democracy will be on the books.

-if the USSR survives the USA might implement Plan Marshall 2.0 to modernize and safeguard East European economies, and help create a healthy political enviroment.

-ironically all of this might result in neoliberalism rising faster, as West Europe will have now access to cheap labor that corporations and businesses will take interest in, resulting in earlier job outsourcing and the fun that comes with it. Neoliberalism* TTL will be radically different from OTL- it could go two ways: 1st a free trade social market-type that supporters looser regulations but is largely apathetic to government expenditure which I think is likely as Bretton Woods is at its zenith or it might go full anarcho-capitalist insanity.


Eastern Europe is in such a mess TTL it has no way to go but up. BTW, the Fall of Communism was always going to be messy. You can't make big reforms without pain, the world doesn't work that way. Trying to do it gently would just drag it out forever and Eastern Europe would probably still reforming today. Believe me it could have been far, far worse.
 
Nah, not lie down. That way lies a trip to SIberia.
rganizations and Conferences
  • Insist on doing everything through "channels." Never permit short-cuts to be taken in order to expedite decisions.
  • Make "speeches." Talk as frequently as possible and at great length. Illustrate your "points" by long anecdotes and accounts of personal experiences.
  • When possible, refer all matters to committees, for "further study and consideration." Attempt to make the committee as large as possible - never less than five.
  • Bring up irrelevant issues as frequently as possible.
  • Haggle over precise wordings of communications, minutes, resolutions.
  • Refer back to matters decided upon at the last meeting and attempt to re-open the question of the advisability of that decision.
  • Advocate "caution." Be "reasonable" and urge your fellow-conferees to be "reasonable"and avoid haste which might result in embarrassments or difficulties later on.
Managers
  • In making work assignments, always sign out the unimportant jobs first. See that important jobs are assigned to inefficient workers.
  • Insist on perfect work in relatively unimportant products; send back for refinishing those which have the least flaw.
  • To lower morale and with it, production, be pleasant to inefficient workers; give them undeserved promotions.
  • Hold conferences when there is more critical work to be done.
  • Multiply the procedures and clearances involved in issuing instructions, pay checks, and so on. See that three people have to approve everything where one would do.
Employees
  • Work slowly.
  • Contrive as many interruptions to your work as you can.
  • Do your work poorly and blame it on bad tools, machinery, or equipment. Complain that these things are preventing you from doing your job right.
  • Never pass on your skill and experience to a new or less skillful worker.
Now, following some simple guidelines, like the ones mentioned below....

I wonder if we continued that during the Cold War. It seems to fit the Eastern Bloc to a T.
 
I'll cover that in detail in the next update (which is about syndicalism in the Third World and Eastern Europe). The short answer is that the stance is opportunistic (the chances of a Syndicalist revolution in Western Europe are thin, while there's a much greater chance in the Third World). To get around the problem you mentioned Third-World Syndicalists modify the ideology to fit local conditions, much like Lenin modified Marxism to fight Russia's conditions.

Despite myths Russia was already industrialized in 1917, not to US or German standards but Mexico they were not. China would be a better example .
 
Yeah, it would be tragic, if not unexpected, if the Soviet Union is balkanized. But the leadership of the USSR don't seem to have interest in going quietly, so I don't see any other way the Soviet colossus can crumble.

It is one of the reasons why I don't think the ITTL 70s will be any better than the OTL 70s.

It should be worse, much , much worse than OTL 70's. At least OTL 70's didn't have a complete madman in charge of the USSR that has descended into massive violence all across Eastern Europe.
 
If the Soviets stop sending aid to North Korea they will face similar problems to what they faced in the 1990s IOTL, and will probably rejoin South Korea or collapse. Vietnam is much less likely to be reunited (at least in the near term). The war is at a stalemate, and it would take a long time for one side to eventually win.

That's also true. As others have mentioned China's national culture is going to be massively xenophobic, to the point where regardless of their personal beliefs the KMT is going to have to be somewhat xenophobic to keep the people happy.

I'm surprised North Vietnam lasted this long. It has no Great Power patrons as I doubt the USSR was in any shape to give them any aid in at least the last five years and an even more anti-Communist US is likely to back South Vietnam to the hilt which may or may not include troops.
 
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