WWII What If: Britain, France, Japan and Germany vs. Soviet Union and United States

There would be no decisive defeat of the U.S. Navy:
CDnphF2Q_o.png

Imperial Alliance thought process is for the US navy to go out seeking the other navies in open seas from 1939-41 while the combined navies will be in one place to gang the US navy to save the Soviets.

It would be interesting to know how the British survive versus US Subs/US battleship raiding by North Carolina/South Dakota or even Alaskas when there are no liberty ships, lend and lease supplying the British losses in merchant marine.

According to this:

https://ww2-weapons.com/british-arms-production/


British Commonwealth merchant ship production peaked at 2.2M tons/year while merchant ships sunk by the Germans peaked at 8.2M tons/year.

Do you think the US will be able to replicate sinking this amount of merchant marine or at least US sink more than what the British produces? Or would US be too far away from the Britain?
 
Till 1941, the Royal Navy was the largest in the world. The US (Atlantic) Navy would be facing the whole Royal Navy (Home+Mediterranean), the whole French Navy, probably the Italian, while German U-Boats would be freely operating on Atlantic, without facing the powerful RAF and RN anti-submarine tactics. I don't see other fate for both US merchant and war navies other than being completely wipped out from that ocean.

It's not a matter of making new ships only. It's not that easy to replace trained people, specially the ones that formed the core of it. Once your entire fleet is sunk, it's done for several years at least.

I don't think, however, would be possible for any meaningful British-French-German Army to cross the Atlantic, let alone the huge amount required to defeat an US army on their hemisphere. Even though the US Navy would be completely defeated, it would still be a stalemate.
 

TDM

Kicked
Leaving aside why anyone is doing this, It ends in stalemate with the USSR knocked out early on.

The US can't keep the USSR going against combined everyone, for two reasons:

1). the USSR is now fighting Germany, Italy, France, UK & Co and Japan. Instead of just fighting Germany and Italy, (while Germany and Italy are also fighting UK & Co and then the US, occupying France etc). That makes life considerably harder for the the Soviets and considerably easier for those fighting them.

2). The US can't do lend lease nearly as well as it was done OTL. In OTL the German & Italian navies were pretty much bottled up by the RN, and the RN and US together ran lend-lease through the N.Atlantic with only really the German u-boat fleet and maybe the occasional German surface raider in opposition. But in this TL it would be the US navy by itself trying to run lend lease through the RN, Italians, French and Germans in the N.Atlantic.


So OK there's the fact that once the US production machine starts really running they outproduce everyone hands down, so given enough time and they do that, right?

Well kind of, only again the scale of that point is based on OTL context. The US had a massive industrial base and large well educated population to make this happen. But in the TL outlined you also still have France intact, the UK and Germany not bombing each other (or fighting) and Japan. I'm not saying that Germany, UK & Co, France and Japan can out produce the US, but if they are working together and not beating the shit out of each other they can produce a lot so that overwhelming US superiority is less overwhelming.

Then you have geography which basically causes the stalemate, no one's invading the US, it's too big, it's too far, will be too well defended and as above no one's going to build up a big enough material/resources advantage over the US to try it. But equally without allies, footholds and it's own overwhelming material/resources advantage the US can't invade Europe/Asia either.

Canada will have have to go neutral or get invaded by the US.

The US might well concentrate on Japan first to get a foothold in Asia but that's going to be a hard fight with the other navies backing Japan and able to fight defensively. And then they have to fight through Asia (not much of a prize).

The US could try and get India on side "hey we rebelled and won our freedom, we'll help you too". That not only removes a big chunk of UK & Co manpower but gives the US a foothold somewhere that isn't North America.


So the Manhattan project, that might make a difference. That with an intercontinental delivery system (missiles or v.long range bombers) the US can trash Europe enough to "win" without having to invade.
 
Last edited:
At the end of the day, the world would be divided in two big islands in a cold war against each other: America in one side dominated by the US, and Afro-Eurasia, dominated by Western Europe and Japan.
 
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/misc/forces.html

Naval strength 1941

Must remember that in this scenario there's no fighting amongst European powers and the merchant marine that first understands what submarines can do will be the US who suddenly fight radar equipped uboats

Hawaii will certainly fall, the combined Japanese and British Pacific fleet, as well as Commonwealth and potentially German or French vessels will be able to seize any islands in the Pacific supplying from their own islands.

The Philippines too is surrounded as the Dutch are imperialists.
 
Almost ASB. The USA doesn't really need imports to keep the economy running and so is effectively immune to blockade in any meaningful time span.

Additionally while the standards might be a bit slow, they had a hell of an armor scheme, and the 16"er may be the finest naval rifle ever developed, and the 14"er is no slouch either. Unless they get pearl harbored, the RN has one hell of a fight on their hands if they want to conduct fleet ops in the Western Atlantic.

Not to mention that over the course of OTL WWII they built and converted over ONE HUNDRED AND FREAKING FIFTY CV, CVL, and CVEs. An unholy amount of CL and DD's, and a fuck load of the world's finest CA's ever designed.

Tens upon tens of thousands of fighters and bombers, a simply mind-boggling amount of guns, ordnance, and ammunition.

The USA, on her own, out-built the entirety of UK, German, Japanese, and Italian tank production. The Soviet Union, and the Soviet Union alone is until modern day China, the only nation, state, or alliance to meaningfully rival the US in its capacity to wage war. And you've gone and allied them.


So you've combined the two largest armaments industries, over half of the world's total production capacity, staggering quantities of natural resources, and 10% of the entire world population (the vast majority of the remainder residing in non-belligerent or colonial nations such as China, India, etc).

The ONLY advantage you've given your imperial alliance is an initial material superiority (but with a qualitative inferiority).

The US lasts long enough for SoDak's and Essex's start coming off the slip ways? Wars won, and everyone else might as well pack it in. Fuck the Lions, KGV's, and anything else the UK and Japan can send down the pipe. Unless they can crank out enough hulls and aircraft to out fight 23 fleet carriers (each packing 92+ aircraft, more than double some enemy hulls).

To put in perspective, the US's carrier-born forces at peak outnumbered Germany and Japan's cumulative airforces.

Once they ramp up, this would be possibly the most hilariously lopsided curbstomp of a major war.
That the US Economy Is entirely self sufficient is something of a myth.
If only because in 1939 there is not one Bauxite Mine in US controlled territory. The vulnerability of the Aluminium supply is a key strategic weakness.
 
That the US Economy Is entirely self sufficient is something of a myth.
If only because in 1939 there is not one Bauxite Mine in US controlled territory. The vulnerability of the Aluminium supply is a key strategic weakness.
Interesting.

Presumably once tensions reached breaking point, a US invasion of Jamaica is on the cards.

Unless Canada, which probably wouldn't join any Imperialist Alliance boycott of US trade, could supply it with Bauxite. Which I think could be the case. Doesn't Greenland have deposits of some mineral necessary for aluminium production also?
 
Honestly, I'd expect a stalemate.
USSR is unlikely to fold - Japanese just can't put enough pressure onto their Far Eastern front, and in Europe...

In Europe you have worse forces arranged against them compared to OTL - Wehrmacht of 1938 is not one of 1941, and having some more bodies doesn't make up for the gap in experience. Even the French and British armies don't quite make up for that, and that introduces the logistics situation that would be considered a nightmare by any logist and commanding problems that would be even worse than that due to politics.

And USSR gets the bonus of starting to get all the new formations by the start of the war (Their continuous mobiization feature, that grew out of Russian Civil War, would mean that they would start raising new formations by the time they declared on Japan, if not even earlier), as opposed to 3 months in with a lot of their most advanced regions lost. So, there's even more of them compared to OTL.

To deal with soviets, europeans would realistically need years, and it's quite likely to turn into a battle of attrition.
 
I think a more interesting scenario would be Germany vs Japan vs USSR in a three-way conflict. No way would the USSR be willing to go down so easily if it were everyone (except the USA) vs the Soviets.
 
It would be interesting to know how the British survive versus US Subs/US battleship raiding by North Carolina/South Dakota or even Alaskas when there are no liberty ships, lend and lease supplying the British losses in merchant marine.

Where does U.S. conduct these attacks on British merchant ships? Worst comes to worst, in this scenario Britain can send resources from India, most of Africa, or the Far East through Suez to southern France, then by rail to northern France and across the channel. Are Americans raiding the channel (and getting decimated by land-based air)? Trying to operate in the Mediterranean? Maybe trying to operate in the Indian ocean? All of the options involve operating at ranges varying from long to extreme, and that's just the beginning of the problems. The situation just wouldn't be remotely comparable to OTL submarine warfare, where the German sub bases were conveniently close to Britain and Britain had to bypass the continent and so have its ships spending a long time in the Atlantic.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
That the US Economy Is entirely self sufficient is something of a myth.
If only because in 1939 there is not one Bauxite Mine in US controlled territory. The vulnerability of the Aluminium supply is a key strategic weakness.

Hogwash. From 1914-1920 the US supplied fully half of the world's Bauxite.

The US was a key Aluminum producer in WWII.


The biggest strategic shortcoming is Tungsten for machine tools, but really only relevant if you need to rebuild everything from scratch, or start shooting a shit load of it as APCR.
 
The US Navy happily sits within land based air cover while building a unstoppable naval force that accounts for something like 80% of the worlds naval capacity. Each Imperial alliance navy dies, one by one, impossibly outnumbered, alone and screaming in terror and fear, in the dark caused by thousands of US carrier based planes. And then the first high altitude long ranged bombers comes online, and industrial cities vanish one by one in nuclear holocaust. The French and British are not contributing jack shit to the Russian front, they're not sending a meaningful force there until it's entirely too late. The T-34's will roll through Berlin, then the low countries, and then Paris, to park on the Channel, and provide lovely bases for a combined US and USSR invasion of England.
 
Last edited:
The US Navy happily sits within land based air cover while building a unstoppable naval force that accounts for something like 80% of the worlds naval capacity. Each Imperial alliance navy dies, one by one, impossibly outnumbered, alone and screaming in terror and fear, in the dark caused by thousands of US carrier based planes. And then the first high altitude long ranged bombers comes online, and industrial cities vanish one by one in nuclear holocaust. The French and British are not contributing jack shit to the Russian front, they're not sending a meaningful force there until it's entirely too late. The T-34's will roll through Berlin, then the low countries, and then Paris, to park on the Channel, and provide lovely bases for a combined US and USSR invasion of England.
So Russia manages to beat both Germany and Japan without lend-lease? A Germany that isn't being bombed by the British, tied down in the Med and has access to the global market? And Britain and France sit idly by while America builds and builds and builds? Despite neither of them facing any real threat at home?
 
The US Navy happily sits within land based air cover while building a unstoppable naval force that accounts for something like 80% of the worlds naval capacity. Each Imperial alliance navy dies, one by one, impossibly outnumbered, alone and screaming in terror and fear, in the dark caused by thousands of US carrier based planes. And then the first high altitude long ranged bombers comes online, and industrial cities vanish one by one in nuclear holocaust. The French and British are not contributing jack shit to the Russian front, they're not sending a meaningful force there until it's entirely too late. The T-34's will roll through Berlin, then the low countries, and then Paris, to park on the Channel, and provide lovely bases for a combined US and USSR invasion of England.

How does the USA beat the imperialists to nukes?

Why are the imperialists fighting alone? How does the USA deal with abandoning Hawaii and its merchant marine to the public?

How does the USSR which is in the middle of the great Purge with zero time to recover and doesn't even have t34s survive imperialists offensive? Especially considering Turkey will likely be pressured into allowing ships through the straits. Iran will also be anti Cominterm
 
The US Navy happily sits within land based air cover while building a unstoppable naval force that accounts for something like 80% of the worlds naval capacity. Each Imperial alliance navy dies, one by one, impossibly outnumbered, alone and screaming in terror and fear, in the dark caused by thousands of US carrier based planes. And then the first high altitude long ranged bombers comes online, and industrial cities vanish one by one in nuclear holocaust. The French and British are not contributing jack shit to the Russian front, they're not sending a meaningful force there until it's entirely too late. The T-34's will roll through Berlin, then the low countries, and then Paris, to park on the Channel, and provide lovely bases for a combined US and USSR invasion of England.

This is absurd. The Soviet Union falls in less than a year against this alliance, while the US takes at least a couple of years before its naval power catches up to where the alliance started the war. And the production numbers Namayan cited were just Japan compared to the US; a France which hasn't been conquered and isn't doing anything else could outdo Japan, never mind what Britain or Germany could do when not fighting one another and in a situation when naval power is a priority. The total naval production of this alliance would be comparable to that of the US. Similarly, British aircraft production OTL was pretty terrifying, and the Germans didn't do too badly in that area and in this timeline could do a lot better with not having to deal with the British bombing their industry and with reduced need for more tanks after the Soviet Union falls. So the alliance also wouldn't be short of land-based air with which to defend its coasts.
 
In 1938, shortly after the Munich Agreement, Hitler dies in a car accident and somewhat more moderate, or at least more risk averse factions in the Nazi party gain power. Instead of going for an extremely risky war, they try to market the Nazi Germany as a bulwark against Communism.

In the Pacific, Japan is more accommodating to Britain's and France's desires now that they don't have to worry about Germany on the continent. However, USA now has a more aggressive stance against Japan combined with anti-imperial rhetoric, and tensions between them increase during 1940. US embargoes and threatens Japan with a war, and Japan responses with a surprise attack like in OTL, just a year earlier, and war ensues.

USSR, who have been co-operating against Japan with the US, think that this is the time gobble up areas from Japan, and declare a war. However, Germany has a pact with Japan that has a mutual defence clause, and Germany declares war on USSR (who they think they can take on) and USA (who they figure can't effectively affect them).

The Soviets panick, fearing that Poland might side with the Germans, and start a pre-emptive invasion of Poland and the Baltics. Besides the Soviet aggression against Poland, in this timeline Britain and France are worried about US' anti-imperial stance, and they proceed to side with Germany and Japan, against the United States and Soviet Union.

How will this go? Can the Imperial Alliance stand up to the combined industrial might of the Americans and Soviets? Assume that the Dutch and Belgian Empires are quietly siding with the Imperials, but they are not openly participating to the war unless attacked.




Timeline:

-September 1938: The Munich Agreement.
-October 1938: Hitler dies in a traffic accident. Somewhat more moderate factions in the Nazi party gain power.
-November 1938: First Vienna Award, provisioned by the Munich Agreement, happens much as in OTL
-July 1939: As in OTL, Britain recognizes Japanese conquests in China. But USA does not resume trade relations with Japan due to rising anti-imperial sentiment, so Japan is forced to seek closer trade relations with the Imperial powers. Pact of Steel between Germany and Italy does not happen.
-late 1939: USA and Soviet Union send increasing amounts of aid to China, and propose an alliance against Japan to France and Britain now that they are unbothered on the continent. Due to the anti-imperial sentiment, they refuse.
-early 1940: Worried about rising anti-imperial sentiment, France and Britain halt aid to China, and do not allow USA to send aid through their possessions. US sees this as a betrayal, and extends some of the sanctions to cover UK and France.
-late 1940: American and Soviet volunteer troops start to show up in China, and USN is mobilizing their fleets in Pacific. Increasing trade war between the Empires and USA.
-December 1940: Japanese do a surprise attack against Pearl Harbor. This time, they are not as lucky as in OTL, and American losses are only a half of what they were in OTL. Japanese forces still manage to get back mostly unscatched. US declares total trade embargo against France and UK.
-February 1941: USSR declares war against Japan, and starts their offensive on Japanese possessions on Asian continent. Romania folds to Soviet ultimatum, and hands over Bessarabia while promising to stay neutral, but they will hold a grudge towards the Soviets. Increasing mobilization by France and Britain, and fervent debate about what to do. Greece, which is falling to Soviet sphere of influence, is invaded by Italy now that everybody else has more pressing concerns, plus France and UK quietly OK it to ensure that Italy stays friendly to them.
-March 1941: Germany declares war against the USA and Soviet Union, according to the mutual defence clause in their treaty with Japan. Soviet Union panicks, and starts to prepare a pre-emptive invasion of Poland and the Baltics, mainly in fear of them either siding with the Germans.
-April 1941: Soviet offensives against Poland and the Baltics start. France and UK declare war against USSR, and offer alliance to Germany. USA declares war against Britain and France in response.


Except for CalBear, nobody here seems to be paying any attention to the extreme political unlikeliness of this scenario:

(1) While the US was unhappy about Japan's conduct in China, virtually nobody wanted to go to war or (until well into World War II when Japan occupied French Indochina and threatened the resource-rich Dutch and British colonies in southeast Asia) even risk war with Japan about it. Talking about "the US does not resume trade relations with Japan" in 1939 is rather odd because the US before World War II never broke off trade relations with Japan--as noted, it kept selling even oil until mid-1941. Moreover, in OTL a major reason for Pearl Harbor is that the Japanese thought that if they seized the British and Dutch colonies, the US would probably go to war with them anyway, so they had better grab the Philippines and cripple the US fleet in Hawaii in anticipation of such a war. In a world where the British, French, and Dutch are at peace and enjoying good or at least tolerable relations with Japan, US sanctions on Japan would be unlikely to go nearly as far and the Japanese would in any event be able to diminish their effect peacefully, through agreements with the west European colonial powers. So the whole idea of a Pearl Harbor-style attack in this vastly different political situation seems extremely implausible. The China issue by itself is simply not going to lead to such an attack.

You may say you are positing a US administration more hostile to Japan over China than FDR's was. But this ignores the strength of isolationist and anti-war sentiment in the US in the late 1930's. FDR had to take care to avoid being branded as a warmonger even for the limited steps he did take (some of them purely verbal like the "quarantine speech"). The Panay incident resulted in a cry not for war with Japan or even for sanctions, but for the US to get out of China, and gave a boost to the proposed Ludlow Amendment https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-over-the-panay-sinking.465381/#post-18736166 Even in 1940 when Congress passed the Export Control Act--and remember that it was passed only after Japan had begun to occupy French Indochina--it relied largely on a rationale that "in wartime we can't export strategic goods that may be in short supply." And even then it excluded oil. The asset freeze and oil embargo came much later, at a time when Japan had occupied the rest of French Indochina and as noted was threatening the rest of southeast Asia. In short, in a timeline where there is no war between Germany and the Western Allies, it would be hard for any US administration to take actions that would provoke Japan into war (even if it wanted to, and very few people wanted to). The US sanctioning Britain and France for being friendly to the Japanese seems even more bizarre and politically unthinkable. And nobody advocated sending US troops to China--volunteers or otherwise--to fight the Japanese.

(2) The USSR declares war on Japan?! In OTL they waited until the last minute in World War II when Japan was clearly facing defeat to do this. Sure, they had a war with Germany on their hands in OTL , but it is not as though they could ignore the possibility of such a war in this ATL. The last thing Stalin wanted was a two-front war. Even after the Japanese lost at Khalkhin Gol, Stalin went to considerable lengths to settle the question of borders in a way reasonably favorable to Japan.

(3) Even stranger, Stalin who in OTL went out of his way to avoid "provoking" Germany in 1941 here starts a pre-emptive war with Germany while he is (unlike in OTL) busy fighting Japan!

(4) Even with all the other implausible events somehow happening, it is hard for me to see Germany declaring war on the US just for Japan's sake. In OTL, Hitler did so because he was convinced that the US was already at war with Germany in all but name--and would soon make it official--which would not be the case here. (See my post at https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...didnt-declare-war.431032/page-2#post-16067955 for the evidence that Hitler wanted to declare war on the US before the US declared war on him.)

(5) Great Britain and France are hardly likely to be as pro-Japanese and anti-US as this scenario has them being. For one thing, Britain has to reckon with anti-Japanese feeling in the Commonwealth, especially Australia. For another, both the UK and France know that Japan has its eyes out for their colonies in southeast Asia, even if in the absence of war it would temporarily leave then alone in return for getting their resources at a "reasonable" price. And for another thing, a lot of people in the UK and France (which I assume continue to be democracies) simply don't want war--certainly not for the sake of Japan whose brutalities in China were as well-publicized in the UK and France as elsewhere. And if Japan actually executes a Pearl Harbor style attack on the US, that is not going to win her much sympathy regardless of the "provocation" Japan claims.

(6) Although this is less absurd than some of the other things in the scenario, I also doubt that the UK and France will go to war with the USSR over Poland. In OTL they went to war with Germany not so much because of Poland itself as because it was the last straw after the Anschluss, Munich, the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia in violation of Munich, etc. In this ATL I think they will at most want to help Germany with a "benevolent neutrality"--enough to avoid an outright Soviet victory. (A Nazi Germany, even not under Hitler, will still after all be unpalatable as an actual ally.)

(7) The idea that Congress is going to declare war on Britain and France just for the sake of the Soviet Union is utterly implausible. The USSR was after all not that popular in the US! If its unpopularity was somewhat mitigated after June 1941 in OTL, it was because it was seen as the victim of a brutal genocidal Nazi Germany. In this ATL the USSR will have been the aggressor in Europe--and even her motives against Japan will be seen as cynical. Well, you may say that Congress declared war with them for the sake of China, but as I have already noted there was no sentiment to go to war with Japan for China--let alone to fight the UK and France over it!

Actually, Sealion succeeding and a Nazi-dominated government of the UK declaring war on the US, though highly implausible, is a less implausible way to get an Anglo-American war than this scenario...
 
Last edited:
Hogwash. From 1914-1920 the US supplied fully half of the world's Bauxite.

The US was a key Aluminum producer in WWII.


The biggest strategic shortcoming is Tungsten for machine tools, but really only relevant if you need to rebuild everything from scratch, or start shooting a shit load of it as APCR.
The Domestic Mines had largely shut down post 1920, the majority of the Bauxite Ore the US used to make Aluminium was imported from the Guianas.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
The Domestic Mines had largely shut down post 1920, the majority of the Bauxite Ore the US used to make Aluminium was imported from the Guianas.


So the US has both large reserves of Bauxite (if not heavily mining for it at the time), and production facilities.

Glad we established that.


Now.... Where exactly was that shortage of Bauxite in US territory you had been mentioning?
 
Top