Two Suns Shall Set: A 20th-Century TL Without Nazis
- Status
Do furries and shitposters still exist ITTL?
Two very important questions I presume.
Two very important questions I presume.
AeroTheZealousOne
Monthly Donor
No insult or offense taken! Constructive criticism and feedback is paramount to self-improvement in this regard.
In regards of not having to be a Nazi to be a terrible human, that is exactly part of what Two Suns Shall Set seeks to convey. Even without the most infamously horrific and genocidal administration of our world taking power here, this does not suddenly make the rest of the world a place full of sunshine and rainbows and advances towards utopia. Removing just one stain does not a clean surface make.
This is shown quite plainly from Romania (1937-1950), the Soviet Union (late 1920s until the 1970s/1980s), China (still in a prolonged warlord period/civil war), Japan (which is still an Imperial state worshiping the Emperor, erasing Korean culture, and propping up a pseudo-fascist Vietnamese state out of pure pragmatism, and Italy (still fascist even if there's OTL Soviet-style liberalization, but instability is becoming a big problem), among plenty of others. And while there are still places that are generally better off than OTL such as Iberia (since there's no Franco, but otherwise subjectively; it depends on one's political viewpoint), Mexico (with a growing economy and a fast-improving quality of life), and even South Africa of all places (no Apartheid; 'nuff said), there are others that are most certainly a mixed bag. Like the United States, where the military-industrial complex is dead in the water and they're not doing a whole lot of black chamber operations in the Americas, but segregation is still legal and much of Garner's New Deal has been repealed over the years.
I generally hold the belief that humans have the capability to all be inherently good individuals. It's not strongly reflected in many parts of this work, that I know. Maybe it's my cynicism, pessimism, and dissatisfaction with my lot in life seeping in every now and then. I don't even know what I wanted to show writing this, to be honest. But you've pointed out something very, very important from a sociological standpoint.
Making this conversation a whole lot lighter but still maintaining the same level of seriousness
I'm watching a video about the Jokers, and I noticed that in the 89' interview Jack Nicholson looked kinda old, so I looked him up and HOLY SHITE he is old! 82 to be exact.
Since he was born relatively not long after the PoD in 1923 and before the end of OTL births in 1950, does Jack Nicholson exist ITTL Aero? and if he does, what is he doing? I doubt he will be playing any axe murderers, clowns, or werewolves in any movies ITTL.
Since he was born relatively not long after the PoD in 1923 and before the end of OTL births in 1950, does Jack Nicholson exist ITTL Aero? and if he does, what is he doing? I doubt he will be playing any axe murderers, clowns, or werewolves in any movies ITTL.
AeroTheZealousOne
Monthly Donor
Jack Nicholson does indeed exist! He goes into animation for Hanna-Barbara in the '50s and acts in some semi-obscure B-movies of the 1960s, all of which are original to TTL. He skyrockets to stardom in the early 1970s with original film Redmond (more on the film in the distant pop culture update) who plays an anti-hero archetype in most of the movies he's in. He and a friend are on the receiving end of an automobile accident in 1974, with a drunk driver.
SIDENOTE: I'm going to work on a "Loose Ends" update, writing about stuff I would have otherwise forgot to add to the "Where Are They Now?" update or been unable to mention without breaking the flow of the story. The next update detailing how the world goes to hell in a handbasket (a slight overstatement, but not for long) is still in the works and may take a while but that loose ends update should be out
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There is an interesting thought experiment I have had for a while with the PoD of TTL.
What if the PoD of Two Suns Shall Set in 1923 happened in a fictional universe? Like Harry Potter or Marvel? How would that affect those timelines? I think that would be a really interesting question to explore.
What if the PoD of Two Suns Shall Set in 1923 happened in a fictional universe? Like Harry Potter or Marvel? How would that affect those timelines? I think that would be a really interesting question to explore.
AeroTheZealousOne
Monthly Donor
The mailbag's only got one letter in it today. Let's take a look:
Well, in a general sense it would really depend on what universe and if it took place after the Beer Hall Putsch in 1923. I'm not an expert on Harry Potter or the Marvel (or even the DC) Universes, and as such I regrettably state that I would not be the best figure to explore such possibilities.
With that being said, if you, by chance, want to explore this, or partake in writing alt-hist spinoffs, fanfics, ISOTs, and/or oneshots and the like set in any such fictional universe with this point of divergence, even using my work as a reference if the fictional universe would take place within the timeline, you have my blessing. I'd advise waiting until I'm much more towards the completion of this timeline if you want to take any of them to the present day ITTL, as there's still a lot of major things to go over.
Well, in a general sense it would really depend on what universe and if it took place after the Beer Hall Putsch in 1923. I'm not an expert on Harry Potter or the Marvel (or even the DC) Universes, and as such I regrettably state that I would not be the best figure to explore such possibilities.
With that being said, if you, by chance, want to explore this, or partake in writing alt-hist spinoffs, fanfics, ISOTs, and/or oneshots and the like set in any such fictional universe with this point of divergence, even using my work as a reference if the fictional universe would take place within the timeline, you have my blessing. I'd advise waiting until I'm much more towards the completion of this timeline if you want to take any of them to the present day ITTL, as there's still a lot of major things to go over.
Bonus Content: Loose Ends and Clarifications
AeroTheZealousOne
Monthly Donor
Here's that bonus update where I cover all the stuff that I probably should have covered earlier or will inevitably forget to cover later.
MISCELLANEOUS:
TERRITORIAL CHANGES:
[1] Such positive views would be considered socially taboo until the 2010s in Britain and the 2020s in more rural European countries.
[2] Iberia would be state athiest until a religious liberalization period in the early 1970s. Afterwards it would simply remain a secular state, choosing not to suppress nor promote any particular religion or religious tendency (except perhaps for Christian Socialism, subtly encouraging its growth).
[3] The Italian colonial war for Abyssinia went as per OTL.
[4] The Chaco War went as per OTL.
[5] The Second Sino-Japanese War started off OTL but as time went on the slogfest finally ended and the Nationalists were brought to heel, being recognized as the sole legitimate government of China and providing support to rebuild in exchange for joining the Co-Prosperity Sphere and doing Japan's bidding.
[6] With Britain, France, and Germany all in a political bloc with each other, it made sense not to have to dedicate as many resources to just one nation possessing nuclear arms. It also serves as a fine counterbalance to each other in case their friendship ends quite roughly. Which won't happen for a while, just so you know.
[7] The Belgian Congo is remaining part of Belgium indefinitely. The brutality of the colonists may have lightened up since before World War II but life positively sucks here, especially if you're a native.
[8] Japanese zaibatsus quite literally control the pocket-strings of an overwhelming majority of the Japanese civilian government. Resources to fuel infinite expansion of the Imperial war machine and a consumer goods market are in high demand, from the Siberian concessions to the Vietnamese puppet state to much of coastal China. Massive disruptions to this system, were they to occur, would be catastrophic to the status quo, and currency speculation is unlikely to save them this time around.
[9] Even with decolonization not really all that much of a thing ITTL, there are still a few countries that are getting the short end of the stick and not developing all that much. Eastern Europe generally has a lower quality of life than Western and Central Europe, and South Africa has very strong Commonwealth ties though it's generally considered to be somewhat backwards. India walks the line between relations with her former colonial overlord and relations with Japan, keeping a balance between both and caving to neither; a difficult task that has earned them the respect of their neighbors and the world.
[10] Ukraine is merely accused of being such a state. The comparisons between Romania and Ukraine, however, have some merit.
[11] The cars in communist countries ITTL aren't like the Trabants and Yugos of OTL. They're not great (read: they're high maintenance), but they're not inherently terrible either (meaning that they actually provide some halfway decent levels of safety to the driver in the event of an accident).
There are all I could think of off the top of my head. Ask about more stuff within the span of the timeline up until now and I'll likely just throw it in because why the heck not. Please let me know if and where I screwed something up so I can either explain it further or simply retcon it.
MISCELLANEOUS:
- The Institut für Sexualwissenschaft suffered significant shelling before burning down in the autumn of 1934 during the German Civil War for unknown reasons. Speculation has far-right elements burning it down during the Civil War out of an effort to eradicate perceived "degeneracy" from the nation, but no official records, transcripts, or testimonies exist to prove that this was the case. Magnus Hirschfeld himself made it out alive with a sizeable number of employees and books to France, where he died in exile from a heart attack in the fall of 1936. Those books "rescued" from the institute before the fire ended up scattered around the world, with most remaining in France but some ending up across the border in Iberia and across the channel in the United Kingdom.[1] The ground on which the building once stood would later become a public park after the Civil War and throughout the rest of the twentieth century, and the institute would be re-established with the Kaiserin's blessing in 2010.
- On a similar note, LGBTQ+ rights in the twentieth century of the Two Suns-verse are about as abysmal as they are OTL, sadly. In the United States they're quite regrettably set back by ten years in the cities and twenty years rurally, what with the ingrained conservative isolationism and everything. In continental Europe it's not as bad, seeing as the Nazi Party was never a thing and never held a monopoly on state power for any length of time, though following the Great Depression the progressive atmosphere of Berlin disappeared and would not appear for another half-century. Iberia is the most open country on the subject by far, with a quiet decriminalization of homosexuality in the 1960s. It won't be until shortly after the year 2000 when Iberia, though not without controversy and complaints from socially conservative and devout Catholics[2], that rights for transgender individuals will be enshrined in national law, up to and including legal recognition and affirmation surgery. This progressive trend will pick up steam over the following decades, beyond the span of this timeline, yet not without opposition and appeals to traditionalism the world over.
- On the topic of Catholicism in Iberia, a large number of high and medium-profile left-wing Catholics were very unsurprised to find themselves excommunicated from the Church. Such figures either became athiests, or did something implausibly unthinkable from an outside perspective: form their own pseudo-Catholic "Christian socialist" denominations in major Iberian cities with a few thousand followers. Eventually the church would soften its stance as Iberia mellowed out on their whole "hardcore revolutionary" phase over the yaers and lift the excommunications of more moderate left-wing individuals, but religious socialist tendencies would become quite engrained in more non-reactionary traditional circles.
- Back in Germany, the Brandenburg Gate suffered significant damage during both the German Civil War and World War II. Repairs have been made since then, and the monument in Berlin once again attracts countless tourists every year.
- The Motherland Calls is a monument that was never built for a battle that never happened in a war that was never fought. The same description could also be used for numerous memorials within the capital of the United States.
- The League of Nations was an absolute living joke throughout the interwar period, from failing to condemn Japan's seizure of Manchuria to Germany's and Spain's respective civil wars to Italy's colonial war for Ethiopia[3] to the Chaco War[4] to Japan's prolonged war in China[5] to the 1948 invasion and partial carving-up of Yugoslavia. Infamously, the Soviet Union declared its unilateral withdrawal in 1949 after a speech by Vyacheslav Molotov accusing the members of the League of "allowing imperialist slaughter to occur without geopolitical repercussions" and walking out alongside the whole Soviet delegation without applause. The League was formally dissolved in 1958 following the aftermath of World War II, satisfied that the USSR was in no position to impose Moscow-backed state capitalist regimes on its neighbors and realizing that further attempts to prevent wars would be just as inevitably fruitless as it was before World War II. When a Third World War would occur was anyone's guess, but with the invention of the atomic bomb, such a likelihood would become less likely and less desirable.
- There is no United Nations, and there won't be for the longest time. The concept of a global peacekeeping organization was dead in the water after relations between many European powers and Japan broke apart and after the discouraging example set by the League of Nations. International order is maintained through the recognition of imperial "spheres of influence" and global thermonuclear war is ironically prevented with the maintenance and stockpiling of nuclear weapons. Since ideological fears in this universe are much weaker as of the 1980s, mass proliferation never really caught on in the thirty-year timeframe since six bombs were dropped on Russia up to the end of the Empire of Japan in 1986. For the moment, the Soviet administration to come out of their devastating Civil War is much more open to cooperation and co-existence with their neighbors This is mainly out of pragmatism and realpolitik than anything else, even if the USSR has since begun the development of their own nuclear arsenal as a deterrent to the powers of the world.
- The "nuclear triad" of this world consists of air-delivered atomic bombs (a standard since they were first dropped on Russia in this manner), varying ranges of missiles (since the late 1960s), and submarines with nuclear weapons capabilities (since the 1970s, limited exclusively to the arsenals of Europe's "Big Three" and the USA). This setup is as per OTL, though as of 1985 there are plans being drawn up to create a presence of nuclear-capable weapons in space, purely as a method of instant retaliation, as a fourth method of large-scale planetary omnicide. Such delivery methods as this would not be ready until the 1992 at the earliest, though if someone decides to go through with them, further militarization of the atmosphere would be needed to maintain the M.E.A.D, the "Mutual Extermination Assurance Doctrine" as coined by a British theorist in the early early 1960s.[6]
- The concept of "apartheid" is not a new one, but it's unfortunately rather popular in the fringes of South African politics. It's slowly catching on with a number of influential whites in the region, and depending on how the countries of Europe handle their decolonization processes even if they aren't all that willing to let these states go, these far-right figures may have an in-road or two to establishing white minority rule over their special slices of Africa. But that's only if the motherland doesn't abandon them, and this is regardless of any insistence of "majority rule" from London, Paris, or even Brussels[7].
- Neoliberalism, synonymous with "Reaganomics" and "Thatcherism" in our world, is still confined to right-wing think-tanks in this one. In spite of this, the internal implementation of more traditional laissez-faire capitalist views are a facet of pre-1980s America and to a certain extent throughout Europe and even within the core territories of Japan. Externally, Keynesian policies rule the day in major world powers, whereas poorer countries within the orbits of larger and more influential neighbors quite often find themselves embracing the free market, often at the end of a Japanese[8] or European[9] bayonet.
- The Boulder Dam, later renamed the Roosevelt Dam after the incumbent President who oversaw its completion in 1936, fulfills all of the purposes you would expect from a hydroelectric dam in the middle of the southwestern United States. Las Vegas is one of the boom towns of the "Sun Belt".
- The Glen Canyon Dam Project is, as of the year 1970, a proposal somewhere in the filing cabinets of the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation.
- Fascism as an ideology has generally remained associated with the pre-Ciano years of Mussolini. Currents of "clerical fascism" such as in the former Romania and in Ukraine[10] are referred to as "ultranationalist", and have been mostly discredited following the partition of Romania. The traditional definition of "a merger of state and corporate power" would have Japan as the posterchild for this definition, but otherwise the days of the ideology as it has existed traditionally are not coming back anytime soon.
- Anarchism's "successes" are now simply confined to the Iberian Confederation. There are more revolutionary groups taking up anarchist points and fighting to abolish both the state and capitalism, except like most good left-wing revolutions they're oftentimes crushed. The Spanish anarchists got off easy ITTL by not being purged postwar and essentially giving Catalonia and the Basque Region some autonomy to practice the more decentralized principles with general success, but not being able to go a whole lot farther than that. The movement in general isn't in a great position, often pressured into working in a parliamentary structure but at the very least their voices are being heard. And
- The Military-Industrial Complex of the United States is dead, and plans to revive it do exist but do not appear to be implemented anytime soon. Aside from the occasional interventions in Central and South America to protect corporate profits and maintain hegemony and all the "defending freedom" the U.S. claims to do, Uncle Sam continues to keep to himself in the aftermath of Woodrow Wilson's failed international vision, even with the brand-new atomic weapons program built to defend the oft-maintained tradition of neutrality in Old World affairs and the Monroe Doctrine.
- The United States of America contains forty-eight states within the Union as of TTL 1970. Future possible states include the territories of Hawaii, Alaska, The Philippines, and Puerto Rico. Puerto Rican separatist issues aren't that big of a problem just yet (even with a small spike in the 1950s), but this may change, and will decide the fate of statehood versus independence. A referendum for Hawaiian statehood will be scheduled for 1978, and Alaska will submit their petition in 1979. By TTL 1980, there will be fifty states in the Union, with the strong possibility of more being admitted before the millennium is finished.
- The Philippines is a U.S. colony with a significant level of self-governance but naturally no say in choosing who's in charge over in Washington D.C. A referendum for independence is on the table, and soon the people of these islands will have to make a choice on their future.
- Automobiles in this universe are notorious for being serious gas guzzlers. During the 1970s many newer automobiles in the United States and Japan are fitted with diesel engines to help with this, though it doesn't do all that much good for the atmosphere. Additionally, the vehicles are... actually pretty good compared to OTL standards. Germans still make the best luxury and general purpose civilian automobiles, the Italians manufacture cars that are dubiously street legal, and the Iberian nationalized auto industry makes cars of fair quality that are cheaper than anything else on the market but are not all that known for their reliability[11]. Japanese-made cars with diesel engines are incredibly popular in Mexican and Italian markets, often out-competing local manufacturers in the former and giving the locals a fair challenge in the latter.
- "Global warming" and "climate change" are two phrases that have yet to enter the lexicon of everyday English language. Trends have been noticed since the 1960s, yet nobody has been doing anything about it just yet. There's no "Earth Day" nor are there any public recycling initiatives. This may change in the future, but for now everyone's going to be preoccupied with their own wallets with most living paycheck to paycheck.
- The Italian Autostrada is slightly more expanded upon from the construction during the 1920s and 1930s, with an additional route connecting Pisa to Rome on the Italian West Coast, and Taranto to Cosenza and Catanzaro in the South, on top of OTL's routes. Further expansions are not planned.
- The German Autobahn, officially designated in various regions as the Kaiserbahn, suffered serious setbacks in construction as a result of three factions fighting over who should rule all of Germany in the mid-1930s. Repairs and expansions occurred during the time period between 1938 and 1944, with further expansion plans disrupted by the outbreak of World War II. The Autobahn was not a safe system to travel on for both Soviet or German combatants due to traps, ambushes, mostly apolitical highway robbers exploiting the discord of a massive European war, and the like. The routes are effectively quite similar to OTL's proposals.
- The United States Interstate Expressway Project, later formally known as the Robert Kennedy Memorial Public Interstate Network or simply the Interstate Network will not be undertaken until a few years into the Second Great Depression, being constructed from late 1977 until its ceremonial "opening" in 1984. When it is completed, it will be considerably less comprehensive than its OTL equivalent but will, without regard, become fundamental for coast-to-coast travel and will become inseparable from American culture whenever it's completed.
- Railways in the United States are in a slightly worse shape than OTL structurally, but taking the train from one city to another is still a popular form of transportation. It definitely beats the traffic jams of larger cities and smaller towns alike, and with the coming economic crisis, will become a more popular alternative to the automobile. Railway infrastructure in the rest of the Americas, particularly Mexico and Brazil, is being widely constructed with the recent pushes for mass industrialization and the interests of becoming regional powers in their own rights.
- Railways in Europe are similar to their OTL incarnations, even after nearly fifty years of butterflies. Not exactly the same as a direct result of warfare in different locations at different times, but generally doing well.
- The railroad system in Africa is slightly larger and maintained somewhat better thanks to colonial investments and taxes, but that's all there really is to say about it.
- Railways in Asia are somewhat more sparse. Neither China has yet to undergo a mass industrialization program, and rail transit is most prominent on the eastern coast near the Japanese treaty ports as well as within Korea and Manchuria. Thailand, however, has undergone its own forward push into modernity and has some of the best-maintained railroad systems and fastest inter-city train services on the continent. The Trans-Siberian Railway has been in quite the state of disrepair since the fifties and has only recently been a target for Soviet initiatives to repair and renovate it.
- The coming energy crisis of the 1970s is largely confined to the poorer parts of Europe as well as the Co-Prosperity Sphere as a whole. The Soviet Union won't buy or sell resources to Europe, and Japan is hurting for oil. The Soviet Union sells some to Japan (and by proxy, the Sphere) for exorbitant prices in a "deal with with devil" to ease economic pressure but it won't stop Japan's inevitable downward spiral. The United States is not expending massive amounts of oil towards its military and hasn't hit peak oil yet, but aside from economic woes the country won't be facing an energy crisis during this decade.
TERRITORIAL CHANGES:
- The Partition of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia is canonically as follows, regardless of maps created earlier: Western Slovenia to Italy, The Dalmatian Coast to Italy, Vojvodina (read: everything north of the River Drava) to Hungary, Kosovo to Italian Albania, and Macedonia (as well as the Pčinja District and Pirotski) to Bulgaria. Romania's "award" of West Banat was de jure revoked in the Romanian Partition following the end of the Iron Guard and granted to Hungary, giving the country a sizeable Serbian minority and straining Serbo-Hungarian relations within the Mediterranean Pact. What's left of Croatia, Slovenia, and Bosnia forms the "Socialist Republic of Illyria". Montenegro and the rest of Serbia forms the misleadingly-named "Kingdom of Greater Serbia". The Pre-Rectification Serbo-Illyrian border pushes a little bit into OTL Republika Srpska with both nations claiming jurisdiction over the precarious region.
- The Romanian Partition is canonically as follows, regardless of maps created earlier:
DobrogeaDobrudzha,ConstantaKjustendza, and everything south of the River Danube is ceded to the Tsardom of Bulgaria. The administrative divisions of Satu Mare, Bihor, Arad, and Timis are ceded to Hungary, as is the former Yugoslav component of West Banat. The rest of Transylvania is established as a nation state with the same name. Moldavia, consisting of OTL Moldova and Bessarabia as well as all territories directly east of the Carpathian Mountains, is established as a nation state. The rest is formed into Wallachia.
- The Modern-Era Czechoslovak Borders are as follows: The Sudetenland is split between Germany and Czechoslovakia in a roughly equal fashion. Southern Slovakia is part of Hungary, making border towns out of Bratislava and Kosice. The rest remains unchanged, though Hungary is strongly interested in purchasing the region of Carpathian Ruthenia, an offer that the country that has already given up plenty of land is not looking to do.
- German Acquisitions as of TTL 1970: Austria (no Anschluss but willing unification), halfway into the Sudentenland (purchased from Czechoslovakia) Danzig (secured from Poland following a treaty, allowing visa-free access to Polish citizens, and leasing Gdynia to Poland indefinitely), the region known as the "Voivodeship Silesia" (purchased from Poland), and Memel (purchased from Lithuania). The question of how Germany could afford all of this is often brought up but never given a concise answer to, though it involved quite a bit of debt and writing off of said debts on both sides of the negotiations. In later years a booming electronics industry will do wonders in alleviating this burden but for now they'll just have to settle with it.
- Border Changes for the Soviet Union as established in the 1957 Treaty of Warsaw are as follows: The independence of the Baltic States, Byelorussia, and Ukraine are granted and is guaranteed by the Tenfold Alliance, later the European Entente. Murmansk and Karelia are ceded to Finland. Crimea is ceded to Ukraine, and Russia's western border is shifted inward by thirty kilometers in most areas except where major cities may lie. (It is for this reason that you can merely see the Finnish border from an aerial view looking north from the city instead of being in "Leningrad, Finland". Sakhalin and Primorsky Krai were ceded to the Empire of Japan, depriving Siberia of its largest Pacific port city and leaving Khabarovsk as the largest city in the Far East under Soviet control.
- Territories comprising North China include all territories belonging to the cliques of Shanxi, Xibei San Ma, and Sinkiang as of 1936. All else sans Manchuria falls within the control of South China. The Capital of North China has been designated as Lanzhou, seeing as the old base at Yan'an was a little too close for comfort to the Nationalists.
- Japanese Treaty Ports/Concessions in Mainland China include Dalian ("Dairen"), Shanghai ("Shanhai"), Hainan Island ("Kainan-to"), the old German concession of Tsingtau ("Chintao"), Nantong ("Minamitori"), and Ningbo ("Ninpo"). Britain still holds onto Hong Kongm and Macau has also been under British jurisdiction since the early 1950s. All other cities on South China's east coast are fully owned and controlled by the government in Nanjing.
[1] Such positive views would be considered socially taboo until the 2010s in Britain and the 2020s in more rural European countries.
[2] Iberia would be state athiest until a religious liberalization period in the early 1970s. Afterwards it would simply remain a secular state, choosing not to suppress nor promote any particular religion or religious tendency (except perhaps for Christian Socialism, subtly encouraging its growth).
[3] The Italian colonial war for Abyssinia went as per OTL.
[4] The Chaco War went as per OTL.
[5] The Second Sino-Japanese War started off OTL but as time went on the slogfest finally ended and the Nationalists were brought to heel, being recognized as the sole legitimate government of China and providing support to rebuild in exchange for joining the Co-Prosperity Sphere and doing Japan's bidding.
[6] With Britain, France, and Germany all in a political bloc with each other, it made sense not to have to dedicate as many resources to just one nation possessing nuclear arms. It also serves as a fine counterbalance to each other in case their friendship ends quite roughly. Which won't happen for a while, just so you know.
[7] The Belgian Congo is remaining part of Belgium indefinitely. The brutality of the colonists may have lightened up since before World War II but life positively sucks here, especially if you're a native.
[8] Japanese zaibatsus quite literally control the pocket-strings of an overwhelming majority of the Japanese civilian government. Resources to fuel infinite expansion of the Imperial war machine and a consumer goods market are in high demand, from the Siberian concessions to the Vietnamese puppet state to much of coastal China. Massive disruptions to this system, were they to occur, would be catastrophic to the status quo, and currency speculation is unlikely to save them this time around.
[9] Even with decolonization not really all that much of a thing ITTL, there are still a few countries that are getting the short end of the stick and not developing all that much. Eastern Europe generally has a lower quality of life than Western and Central Europe, and South Africa has very strong Commonwealth ties though it's generally considered to be somewhat backwards. India walks the line between relations with her former colonial overlord and relations with Japan, keeping a balance between both and caving to neither; a difficult task that has earned them the respect of their neighbors and the world.
[10] Ukraine is merely accused of being such a state. The comparisons between Romania and Ukraine, however, have some merit.
[11] The cars in communist countries ITTL aren't like the Trabants and Yugos of OTL. They're not great (read: they're high maintenance), but they're not inherently terrible either (meaning that they actually provide some halfway decent levels of safety to the driver in the event of an accident).
There are all I could think of off the top of my head. Ask about more stuff within the span of the timeline up until now and I'll likely just throw it in because why the heck not. Please let me know if and where I screwed something up so I can either explain it further or simply retcon it.
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What happened to Joseph Gobbles, Leni Riefenstahl, Irma Grese, and William Luther Pierce ITTL?
Also, is there an analogue film to Downfall, and to a lesser extent, Downfall memes?
Also, is there an analogue film to Downfall, and to a lesser extent, Downfall memes?
AeroTheZealousOne
Monthly Donor
Definitely the real question, and a most relevant one to ask given the premise of this timeline.
Before that...- Joseph Goebbels joined the DNVP in the 1920s and somehow survived the German Civil War... only to be arrested for treason in the aftermath and sentenced to death... only to have that sentence commuted to twenty in prison by a sympathetic judge. He was released after only ten years, and actually joined an anti-communist partisan force despite his increasingly advanced age at the time. By some miracle, he made it out of that alive as well. The rest of his life would be lived in obscurity and he would receive no state recognition for his career as a partisan, passing away quietly of old age in 1971.
- Leni Riefenstahl is a famous German actress, starring in a number of blockbusters and pro-German and anti-Soviet propaganda pieces during the 1920s through the 1950s. She's still famous in the postwar world, playing a grandmother on one of the world's first "situation comedies", or "sitcoms" on a German TV show. (Note to self: Update the Pop Culture entry with this information!)
- Irma Grese lived an uneventful, obscure, and generally sad life until early 1952, when accused by Soviet occupiers of working with monarchist sympathizers and sentenced in a kangaroo court, executed by firing squad on a cold March morning alongside seven others accused without evidence.
- Noted physicist William Luther Pierce was partially instrumental in helping the United States obtain their first atomic bomb, but resigned from work at the [REDACTED] Laboratory where the testing took place in mid-1969, citing irreconcilable disagreements with his colleagues. Pierce would later run for the U.S. Senate from Georgia and win a seat for the fringe far-right American Freedom Party (AFP) in the 1974 midterms until being overwhelmingly voted out of office in 1980. Following this, he would Pierce was remembered mainly for his role in Project Eggshell (the U.S. nuclear program's codename declassified in the 1980s) and for his nationalistic views and controversial support for the actions of Romania's infamous Iron Guard regime. His death in 1998 from cancer was not widely reported in the newspapers or on the evening news broadcast.
Its analogue will most likely be an obscure cult classic crossed with The Death of Stalin detailing the last days of the Iron Guard in a light filled with both seriousness and gallows humor. As for The Death of Stalin itself, the analogous 1990s cult classic sharing the same name and sharing the aforementioned film's use of comedy will detail the post-Stalin power struggle (including the wartime troika, the Yezhov years, and the Beria years) up until Georgy Zhukov's 1962 coup that set in motion the Soviet Civil War. The film will be banned in Russia until the late 2000s, of course, but this is for a Pop Culture update that's sort of distant from now.
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This looks like interesting tl can someone give me a run down on germany and muslim world please. Is if no nazis then what is germany government also borders?
Bonus Content: A Recap on Germany and a Summary of the Islamic World in the Early 1970s
AeroTheZealousOne
Monthly Donor
A world map has not been created yet, though in the most recent update I defined some specifics to help any aspiring mapmakers create a map for this timeline.
Germany without Hitler has led to the nonexistence of the Nazi Party and a rise in support of those seeking to restore the monarchy as well as those wishing to establish a communist Germany. These conflicts and the polarization of German society led to the German Civil War (1933-1937) and a compromise reunification between those loyal to the Weimar Republic and the monarchists, forming a constitutional monarchy. The 1940s saw the rebuilding of Germany from the civil war and a new cultural golden age for the country as well as much of Europe. An alternate World War II, started by the Soviet Union seeking to "liberate" Europe from capitalism, has initial successes in holding much of Eastern Europe and much of Germany before ultimately being repelled by partisans, new tactics, and Japan opening up a front in the Far East. World War II ended with a good chunk of Germany in ruins (again) and a good position to exert influence over Europe once they rebuilt.
Germany as of the early 1970s is one of Europe's major powers, behind Britain and France but on good terms with both.
The Islamic World? I'll try my best to cover everybody:
- Morocco was seized from Spain by Portugal following a Republican-Socialist coalition victory in the Spanish Civil War, with the Spanish Republicans sidelined in favor of more left-wing politics. Following the collapse of Portugal's government Morocco came under British jurisdiction, and has since been a protectorate of the British Empire.
- Algeria is still held as a colonial possession by the French Republic. Pro-independence rebels are rare but with the coming of the Second Great Depression the situation may change rapidly.
- French West Africa (including places such as Mali and the Ivory Coast, among others) are still colonial ventures as of this world's early 1970s and under the jurisdiction of - you guessed it - France.
- Libya, following the Italian Empire's austerity measures and rather hasty granting of both this nation and Abyssinia full independence in late 1975, will remain part of Italy, but with increased autonomy. The oil will keep flowing and the locals will continue as they have for the last few decades, but there will be no independence for a while. Home rule? Perhaps, but that's still a ways away.
- Egypt is still a British colony with some level of self-rule. With no male heirs to the late King Farouk I who passed away in 1963, a succession crisis emerged that lasted a year and led to the dissolution of the Egyptian Monarchy as it existed. The title "King of Egypt" would instead be claimed by the British crown until a future date when Egypt achieves full independence.
- Sudan still remains a British colony as well. This state of affairs is slated to be maintained indefinitely, and minor complaints with Egypt over the Hala'ib Triangle (and not wanting Bir Tawil) is one of numerous constants.
- Palestine, still under a British Mandate is currently undergoing a low-level paramilitary conflict between Zionists, local Palestinians, and British garrisons in the area. With the Second Great Depression just around the corner, this could escalate and become even messier...[1]
- The House of Sa'ud was removed from power in the former Saudi Arabia after a revolution in a period commonly known as the "Arabian Winter" established a "revolutionary republic" that sought to remove the influence of Wahhabism from the country as well as to "destroy old superstitions" in the words of their short-lived generally unpopular government. They did not last long and were replaced with a more moderate(?) government that restored monarchism but declared a new dynasty and claimed descent from the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him), to the consternation of Britain and the concern of Iran.
- Oman's government is still holding strong with the winds of change with their neighbor. The Brits or even the Arabians might attempt to meddle and/or bring them to their side, but that won't be happening.
- Syria and Lebanon are parts of the French Mandate of Syria. French authorities are doing their best to maintain order, but nobody really knows how long these efforts will remain successful.
- Turkey has managed to avoid much of the instability plaguing the Middle East in recent years. Their government is reliably democratic, and has been at peace for quite a while now. Ataturk would be smiling in his grave.
- Iraq, Kuwait, and the Trucial States are British holdings in the Middle East where the local colonial governments have, for the moment, a solid hold on the situation.
- Iran remains under the rulership of the Shah, uninterested in the increasing levels of bloodshed in the Middle East for the time being.
- Afghanistan is, like in most alternate history timelines, a country most Americans can't find on a map. In all serious though, Mohammed Zahir Shah is helping to bring the country into the modern age, and is doing a fine job of it. Terrorism is not a problem for the so-called "graveyard of empires", and it is hoped that it will stay this way. In any case, the Soviet Union is in no position whatsoever to make any moves affecting the country.
- India, not partitioned after British independence in the early 1960s, has a large Muslim minority, They're coexisting with the followers of the numerous other religions that are practiced on the Indian subcontinent thanks to the government's policies of "Friendship and Harmony", and the whole thing is held together by the charisma of Manilal Gandhi. In many ways, it's like OTL Yugoslavia but on steroids and not really a radical left-wing state.
- The Dutch East Indies are still Dutch, naturally. Their independence is slowly being granted and it is expected that Indonesia, the new nation to come out of this, will attain full sovereignty between 1985 and 1990. Relations between the colonial government and the colonized populace are surprisingly good thanks to the recently-implemented policies of "benign neglect".
- Albania is a constituent territorial possession of the Italian Empire. With instability looming in the future and separatist movements gaining considerable traction, they might just get their sovereignty back from Rome after it was seized in the late 1930s. The local Muslim-majority population has been treated surprisingly well for being within the borders of a fascist dictatorship, though they're still not warmly embracing the Italian imperialists. In an area where one would expect paramilitaries and partisans to be commonplace, the hills, forests, and mountains are oddly tranquil.
- Bosnia is an integral part of the Socialist Republic of Illyria, one of two successor states to the now-defunct Yugoslavia. Religious freedom is granted within the nation, and relations between other ethnic groups and followers of other religions have never been better under Josip Broz Tito's leadership. But with Tito stepping down, can the legacy of "brotherhood and unity" survive? Only time will tell.
[2] I recognize that to some of my readers the revolution out of Arabia came out of nowhere, kind of like how Germany's recovery and buying the lands of neighbors is kind of a stretch on plausibility. Different circumstances and various butterflies have affected the situation in the Middle East (among other countries) and this started out as a protest before spiraling out of control. A better explanation of the events here will arrive next update.
I hope this was helpful!
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Thanks
Two questions, if the prussian royal family is restored have the minor royal families been restored as well.
Second question it says the german are leasing im a bit stupid then as im confused does that mean germany regained west prussia and allowed the poles to have a free port?
Two questions, if the prussian royal family is restored have the minor royal families been restored as well.
Second question it says the german are leasing im a bit stupid then as im confused does that mean germany regained west prussia and allowed the poles to have a free port?
More People Questions;
- William Shatner?
- Lee Harvey Oswald?
- Chuck Berry?
- Josef Kramer?
- Isle Koch?
- Adolf Eichman?
- Ernst Kaltenbrunner?
- Franz Stangl?
- Friedrich Jeckeln?
- Paul Blobel?
- Odilo Globocnik?
- Joseph Mengele?
- James Savile?
- Paul Gadd?
- Andy Griffth?
- Peggy Sue Gerron?
- Donna Ludwig?
- Neil Armstrong?
Aero answered yes when I asked but suggested this "compromise" of having ceremonial monarchs responsible to the respective Landtag's didn't extend to Prussia. IMO my biggest question is whether Thuringia is broken up or some former Prince from the former Thuringian fiefdoms is appointed as the local monarch.
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Bookmark1995
Banned
Is the process of decolonization smoother than OTL in some places or are the problems merely being kicked down the road by another generation?
Is TTL Belgian Congo actually creating a class of "evolues" and preparing the country for independence or are they still giving Congolese nasty paternalism?
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