The Man in the High Castle on Amazon Prime

Happier with the ending than I was with Thrones.

Thought the BCR stood for the Black California Republic. Much cooler name.


Another note, I was dying when Smith was roasting Himmler to his face.

While there's a lot to hate about Smith, I was a fan of his anti-Himmler policy.
 
Only seen the first new episode so far. Worldbuilding’s taken a turn for the wonky. Japan managed to invade the US before resolving the Sino-Japanese War? China is intact enough to make its own Type 58 pistol and advance into Manchuria *and* Korea (which by this point should really be a core Japanese territory)? Black communists constitute the most organized resistance in the Japanese Pacific States despite being a tiny minority that by its very nature excludes working with the overwhelming majority of anti-Japanese agents? The BCR kind of seemed to come out of nowhere as far as resistance movements go—maybe they’ll explain them a bit better going forward.
 
Am I the only one who found the BCR incredibly short-sighted? It seemed blatantly obvious that if the Japanese pulled out of the Pacific States, the Reich would just come rolling in, wiping out anyone who isn't an Aryan, and they'd probably start by clearing out the black neighborhoods that the Japanese oddly did not try to genocide

I agree. Especially since, if I recall correctly, many of the BCR members seem to have been refugees who fled Nazi America. Hell, Wyatt calls them out on it when he tries to persuade them to give his crew guns. So the genocide survivors...need to be told that the genocidal Nazis will want to wipe them out? I liked their inclusion and Bell, but on the whole I just think the resistance plot was kind of rushed. We go from a couple rebel attacks to Japanese withdrawal. The more I think about it, more time could have been spent on the resistance groups actually doing useful stuff in the earlier seasons if we had cut out more of the filler (like Juliana being...annoying), thereby setting them up as a serious force.

The oil embargo plot always struck me as strange because Japane has Indonesia, Alaska etc. Their problems should have been solved. Perhaps they did not get around to exploiting Alaska, but they definitely know Indonesia has oil.

Himmler getting a Karmic death was neat. Strange that Goebbels still did not appear, despite being namedropped once every preceding season and being mentioned as Himmler's rival in s1. Then again, it would not have been a 'twist' if he'd joined forces with Smith to oust his rival, whereas Goertzmann could be presented as being Himmler's man.
 
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My favorite season so far but there were problems. The BCR came from nowhere and were a bigger threat than the resistance. They should have been name dropped in the first season. As the series progresses their attacks should have gotten bigger and bigger until we got to season 4. Also the BCR is pretty naive to not want to form other alliances with other rebel groups. Do they not think the Nazi's would leave them alone? Do they really think the Nazi's wouldn't invade the remaining part of the country to reunite it, especially one that is controlled by Black people that have a communist ideology. The Japanese were ruthless occupiers but they weren't committing wholesale genocide. Most of the BCR were refugees from Nazi controlled America, they know damn well the Nazi's would have no problem wiping them out.

Also the fact that the Japanese would just completely abandon the JPS is ridiculous. I understand that 30 years of continuous fighting against the Chinese, then the Americans briefly, and then rebels in occupied America would drain their resources and morale but just completely abandoning their territory makes no sense. Would have made more sense to remain in the JPS but install a puppet government that gives greater autonomy to American citizens. Install puppet colonial administrators to run the country and still extract resources such as land, food, labor, etc.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
This is a cross-post of my comments in the other thread, over in media & fandom:

As many others have noted by now, this final season has a lot of problems and issues. That's really unfortunate, because there's a lot of great stuff, too. This is certainly not such a disaster as GoT season 8, nor is it a total weird bullshit trip like the last season-and-a-half of the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica. The (literally!) last-minute weirdness is unfortunate, but not that terrible. Just weird.

Because this is a forum where we analyse and -- yes -- nitpick for fun and no profit, I'll now go point by point on what I think went wrong.

(But because this thread still has a lot of spoiler-tags, unlike that other one, I'll put my actual comments behind such tags here.)

-- They very obviously crammed two seasons' worth of plot into one season. There is no time to breathe, and lots of things now have to happen in an ultra-contrived way in order to work out. Also, skipping a year is rarely a good idea, and in this case, having two seasons, taking place over the course of that year plus the duration of this season, would have solved all the major issues.

-- A big issue is that the absolute high point of this season is the contrast between normal good guy Smith in the one TL, and monstrous nazi Smith in the other. Sewell being a phenomenal actor, he does everything he can with it, but there's not enough time to develop it properly. So much more could've been done with this.

-- The skip also robs Juliana of a more gradual journey towards... Enlightenment? We don't get to see it, and if her whole meditative journey had gotten much more space, it would've been far more meaningful.

-- Also, Tagomi just gets offed. Big disservice to the character. A fourth season ending with that, and then his first vision-appearance to Juliana-in-exile, would have been perfect. That would've set the stage for a well-contructed season five.

-- Black communists? Whence? I like the idea, but they weren't ever mentioned before. Again, just an extra season showing them coalescing first would've solved this. (Although frankly I'd have liked to see more of them earlier-- unlike most of the 'white' resistance, these guys don't do lynchings or casual murder of suspected traitors.)

-- Nevertheless, considering any even vaguely realistic take on the Pacific States' demographics, the BCR can only be a very tiny splinter group. Bringing them into the story is cool, but there's no way they end up in charge of the country. Maybe they'd get a real place at the table as part of a broader commie resistance, but I doubt even that. (Also, there are zero signs that any other part of the resistance is communist in any way at all. On the contrary: they all seem to idealise pre-war "Americanism", with lots of notions about individual freedom. It seems likely to me that a country built by a victorious resistance would be vaguely libertarian -- meaning right-libertarian -- rather than anything resembling communist.)

-- The Japanese withdrawal from the Pacific States is ludicrously hasty. Again, an additional season spent extensively setting up how bad things really are in China would've made this much more credible. (Also, they should've explained more: for instance, making it explicit that the Pacific States are the least important Japanese colonial holding, and therefore first to be cut loose if push comes to shove.)

-- Of course, in a realistic scenario, Japanese withdrawal means the Reich rolls in, so instead of withdrawal, you'd see self-government as a Japanese client/vassal. Police functions given back to the Americans etc. but still very much a country in the Japanese sphere, with Japanese nukes stationed there and pointed at the Reich. Also, this self-government would be handed over to white Americans, not to the BCR.

-- In fact, since skin colour can't be hidden, we know that the Japanese of this TL would've just exterminated all blacks as a response to the BCR bombings. It would've been very easy. The series creators obviously just didn't want to go there, but... let's be real. That would be the outcome here.

-- On the other hand, they clearly did include the notion that the nazis are far, far more technologically advanced than OTL democratic America. This carries the "nazism is efficient" under-tone, which is... not accurate in the slightest. It would've been interesting to see the nazis fumbling around a lot more when it came to inter-world travel.

-- The whole idea of "Americanism" among American nazis is very interesting, but again horribly rushed. Showing more of this (again, across two seasons) would've been much better as a set-up.

-- Smith's second-in-command calling off the attack is just absurd. He was the most enthousiastic proponent of re-uniting America! Smith gave him the order to do it! Does he even know Smith is dead at this point? Makes no sense. As mentioned, in a realistic scenario, the Japanese would've already killed all blacks in the Pacific States by that point, and would be pulling back a bit, instead of pulling out. There would be no war, and men like the "Americanist" officers would be living in hope of re-uniting America when the Japanese weaken further (which seems likely). Smith was already rather Americanist himself, and his death would put the Americanist faction in charge.

-- The realistic ending of this series would've been the gradual pull-back of both Germany and Japan, with the prospect off an ethnically cleansed, collaborator-ruled America re-uniting in a few years or so. Probably peacefully. I get why they didn't do that, but that is the expected outcome here. In fact... given what we've seen, I expect the Americanists to take over the American Reich on short notice (thus taking a lot of wind of the resistance's sails), and the BCR to be removed from power in the Pacific States. Those West Coast death camps may well end up getting built after all.

-- A more hopeful alternative would be to end with the resistance taking over the Pacific States as we hear reports of a huge Japanese defeat in China, with all the remaining Japanese forces hastily pulling out of the Pacific States... and the resistance gaining control of their nukes. Still absolutely no chance of the BCR being in charge, but the West Coast would then be a liberated, multi-ethnic, set-to-be-democratic country. Presumably with a lot (if not all) of the neutral zone joining this country. You could end with Juliana & co making it to safety in the west, after having assassinated Smith and blown up the whole nazi portal base. End the series with them receiving news broadcasts of an Americanist coup in the East, with it being stated that the SS is being disbanded. This would be realistic, but offer at least some real hope.

-- The actual ending, with a lot of people suddenly coming through the gate, is just total nonsense.
 
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The BCR seemed pretty multi-ethnic, with Aztlan, the Jews, various GNR defectors (Bell's right, they should take off those uniforms ASAP) and presumably other residents of San Francisco.

As for Japan collapsing, the Communist resistance in Asia might be Chinese led, but they probably have pretty large Filipino, Indian, Indonesian, Korean, Malay etc. regional/ethnic components, and probably a lot of Japanese support too (nearly thirty years of total war is going to make life in Japan very miserable for the average Japanese). Japan's troubles aren't completely out of the left field, as in Season Three, it was already mentioned that Manchuria is a frozen hell (which in OTL was the showcase of Japan's colonial empire), showing that things in Dai Nippon had been going downhill for quite a while.

EDIT: I assumed that the JPS 'imported' a lot of African American deportees from the GNR, since they'd need a pool of cheap labor for various industrial purposes (the West Coast OTL wasn't terribly well populated in the 1940s) and as such, couldn't just genocide their new labor pool as the earliest hint of trouble.
 
Highly enjoyable but i agree with the flaws as mentioned by previous posters, it did seem like they crammed too much in

What i did find a bit too implausible was the apparent ease in which virtually the entire Reich leadership could be wiped out, plus the portal site could be attacked and conquered by a few hundred rebels. The most secure locations in the world obviously not quite so secure when plot demands!
 
I'm just wondering why Germany isn't experiencing difficulties with its many colonial possessions, since while the Japanese empire is depicted as crumbling, the German Reich comes acrosss as quite stable. Like, they've presumably carried out Generalplan Ost and have apparently occupied all of Africa and enslaved the native population there. Germany's policies are explicitly genocidal (and Himmler, a total fanatic, is in power), so the people it subjugated and who are categorised as 'Untermenschen' would have nothing to lose.
 
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Its a shame we saw very little of the Reich outside of the US and Berlin as there was a fascinating world to be developed there.
 
Just watched the series finale.


Couple of questions
  • What the hell was up with that ending?
  • What is the significance of BIll tossing his Nazi medal on the table?
  • What happened with the Smith kids? Are they with Helen's brother in Montana?
  • Why did the Nazis cease their invasion of the Western States?
  • What's going to happen to the American Reich now that their First Family is dead or hiding in the Neutral Zone?

I will say, this season packed more surprises in it than the previous seasons combined. I did not predict Smith killing Himmler. That was like a bat out of hell and I love the poetic justice of Himmler being gassed to death with Zyklon. That was so preciously hilarious. What made it better for me was Smith unloading on Himmler just before killing him.

Its a shame we saw very little of the Reich outside of the US and Berlin as there was a fascinating world to be developed there.

I know North America is the primary setting of the book, but I agree, the show never took advantage of the opportunities it had to explore the world outside of North America.
 
Only seen the first new episode so far. Worldbuilding’s taken a turn for the wonky. Japan managed to invade the US before resolving the Sino-Japanese War? China is intact enough to make its own Type 58 pistol and advance into Manchuria *and* Korea (which by this point should really be a core Japanese territory)? Black communists constitute the most organized resistance in the Japanese Pacific States despite being a tiny minority that by its very nature excludes working with the overwhelming majority of anti-Japanese agents? The BCR kind of seemed to come out of nowhere as far as resistance movements go—maybe they’ll explain them a bit better going forward.

China is a vast country and topography favourites a large scale guerilla warfare see map look Yugoslavia during WW2 in OTL which is 1/20 compete with China. If not mistaken Japan invade West coast after the Nazis drooped the bomb, invaded first from the East and paralysed the US Forces. About Type 58 rifle, maybe Mikhail Kalashnikov escaped to China after the capitulation of USSR and worked for Mao. Finally about BCR see OTL Tito's partizan's in Yugoslavia.
 
I fid not enjoy that season as much as the others. Fist the BCR came out of nowhere and while yes they would be able to pull off those bombings that would not have made Japan withdraw from the JPS. Why didn`t they at least think that if Japan pulls out the Nazis who they had been imprisoned by were going to come in which almost happened. The John Smith bits were good though. While that ending just didn`t make sense even for a series based off a Phillip K Dick novel.
 
I getting the sense that season 4 was a bit rushed overall. Perhaps they had a longer multi-season arc that had to be crammed into a shorter time span? I don’t really follow behind the scenes issues but that seems like the case here.
 
Highly enjoyable but i agree with the flaws as mentioned by previous posters, it did seem like they crammed too much in

What i did find a bit too implausible was the apparent ease in which virtually the entire Reich leadership could be wiped out, plus the portal site could be attacked and conquered by a few hundred rebels. The most secure locations in the world obviously not quite so secure when plot demands!
The portal site might have had only a company level unit on site, for secrecy reasons
 
I'm just wondering why Germany isn't experiencing difficulties with its many colonial possessions, since while the Japanese empire is depicted as crumbling, the German Reich comes acrosss as quite stable. Like, they've presumably carried out Generalplan Ost and have apparently occupied all of Africa and enslaved the native population there. Germany's policies are explicitly genocidal (and Himmler, a total fanatic, is in power), so the people it subjugated and who are categorised as 'Untermenschen' would have nothing to lose.
It's possible that the Nazis adjusted Generalplan Ost ITL and "Aryanized" about say, between 40-66% of Eastern Slavs.
 
In general, I liked the show. I liked the idea of depicting a dystopian world, divided by two totalitarian superpowers. Of course, the idea is alternative even to alternative history. The idea that Nazi Germany and Japan could split the world in less than 20 years is ridiculous.

Some thoughts and questions:

- First thing that bothers me is the name of the country itself. "Greater Nazi Reich" would be very insulting and derogatory for Nazis. They call themselves national socialist. There is not the slightest chance that it would be the official name of the state. America would most likely be called the "Reichskommesariat Nordamerika" and would probably include Canada. Hitler wanted to rename Germany to ''Grossgermanisches Reich Deutscher Nation''.

- No Nazi government would hand over nuclear weapons to people they beat in war and who had become Nazis forcefully. As much as Smith is loyal to the Nazi regime, he wouldn't control nuclear weapons

- how does China arm the BCR? China has no navy, Japan fully controls the ports and all channels of smuggling to the Pacific states.

- where is Italy? What is happening in Britain, the former Soviet Union? Is it really possible to divide Soviet Union in 20 years? Exterminate all Slavs, Jews, Gypsies, Africans, Arabs without major uprisings? We're talking about billion people.

- why would Goertzmann kill all nazi leadership, Wehrmacht joint staff and top SS generals? How the hell would he explain that to Germans, Wehrmacht, other SS generals, Nazi party?

- if we believe in theory that John isn't Nazi, why would he suddenly exterminate all remaining Jews, blacks, Indians, in moment when he has a achance to reunite America into new United states and become a sovereign state again?

- why would Japanese withdraw from JPS in first place and leave important oil pipelines to BCR? Because of one attack?

- why Juliana didn't contact a OTL US government and explain what's going on?
 
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