DBWI: King George III never sided with the American Colonists

[M79]

Yeah we tend to be villainized a lot. Those spy movies are hilarious to anyone actually in the COL, especially the Daughters of Liberty. But back to movies. I don’t know about film locations but I feel that the global film industry would be a lot less international, with America and Britain sharing fewer movies.

Daughters of Liberty the Pinewood movie or Daughters of Liberty the organization?

Pinewood is the name of the overwhelmingly dominant studio in British film located in Sloubridge (formerly Slough & Uxbridge before their merger in 1944) just north of London. You might guess the pet name for the other part of the film industry that specializes in keeping the British end up from the town names.

Fallburg was one of dozens of sites for American films starting in the 1910s, but eventually hardline religious settlers et al in California drove out the industry when Temprance helped pass Amendment 47 in November 1914. That left Packingtown (OTL Chicago) which also went dry in 1919. Kentucky was one of the few places where liquor was allowed to flow in those days and subsequently became home of American film.

 

[JustinianTheGrand]

Daughters of Liberty the Pinewood movie or Daughters of Liberty the organization?

Both, the latter laughs at the former. God that film is such obvious propaganda, practically pornography too. But that’s 60s movies for you. That was probably the closest since the 1700s North America got to actually splitting because of the mess that was the Second-African war.

 

[Baldrick]

I once read a TL where the colonists somehow managed to get France and Spain to help them and formed a new country. They ended up allying with the British 150 years later and saving them in two world wars, before becoming the strongest country on earth. Oh, did I mention that this TL has them become a functioning, liberal democracy? Because it does. Rather implausible, but also kind of heartwarming.

 

[JustinianTheGrand]

I once read a TL where the colonists somehow managed to get France and Spain to help them and formed a new country. They ended up allying with the British 150 years later and saving them in two world wars, before becoming the strongest country on earth. Oh, did I mention that this TL has them become a functioning, liberal democracy? Because it does. Rather implausible, but also kind of heartwarming.

I think I saw a talk by the guy who wrote that at a meeting of the CoL. I read his books after that and I felt like the most unrealistic part was either America and Britain uniting or Germany getting unified in a single lifetime before they were divided up among France,Russia, and Austria.

 

[HIM Dogson]

I think I saw a talk by the guy who wrote that at a meeting of the CoL. I read his books after that and I felt like the most unrealistic part was either America and Britain uniting or Germany getting unified in a single lifetime before they were divided up among France,Russia, and Austria.

Out of curiosity which flavor of CoL are you? I know there's quite a sizeable Syndicalist faction there, but plenty are also free-trade liberals. Pretty much the only movement where you won't get them at each other's throats; opposition to the monarchy binds them together, I guess.

 

[JustinianTheGrand]

Out of curiosity which flavor of CoL are you? I know there's quite a sizeable Syndicalist faction there, but plenty are also free-trade liberals. Pretty much the only movement where you won't get them at each other's throats; opposition to the monarchy binds them together, I guess.

I’m more on the moderate social Democrat wing of the organization.I feel like the syndicalists are going too far in wanting to reorganize everything. I feel that would cut us off from the world and make it hard fir us to defend ourselves from an Imperial Counterattack.

 

[M79]

Out of curiosity which flavor of CoL are you? I know there's quite a sizeable Syndicalist faction there, but plenty are also free-trade liberals. Pretty much the only movement where you won't get them at each other's throats; opposition to the monarchy binds them together, I guess.

Irony itself, the Syndicalist faction was also calling itself the Sons of Liberty - and like their namesake, they were SoL. But then anyone living in the Dominion of Charlotiana remembered the harsh and corrupt rule of Viceroy Capone, aka "The Roi of Vice", when the original Sons tried to rouse the labor unions in the 1920s only to find his private mob under Moran. With their return in the 80s in the Dominion of New England - I guess I should say, "Reconstituted" Dominion, as a courtesy - under Viceroy Gotti the results were none too different. Governor Bulgar was especially cruel to them, word has it he even allowed agents of Her Majesty's Secret Service to used..."enhanced interrogation"...to extract key information. His untimely death is perhaps the only reason he did not face trial.

I think I saw a talk by the guy who wrote that at a meeting of the CoL. I read his books after that and I felt like the most unrealistic part was either America and Britain uniting or Germany getting unified in a single lifetime before they were divided up among France,Russia, and Austria.

​

Oh yeah! I remember - some good ideas but based on flawed turns of events. That timeline even had the US having another long war with Britain a generation later, but despite the capitol city being burned to the ground somehow the United States forces *beat His Majesty's forces* in New Orleans *despite being outnumbered on land and sea*! And with some hick general no less! I did like the man's personality though, especially something about, "No real Kentuckian is without a bottle of bourbon, a deck of cards, and a rifle", or such. Then they survive a devastating Civil War against each other - the dominant faction had semi-automatic rifles at the war's start but refused to use them because 'the men would waste bullets'! With Sir William Sherman and Sir Robert Lee were on opposite sides as were Viceroy Davis and Viceroy Lincoln!!! Each pair were extremely good friends, could you imagine them having to fight each other like that?! Davis's drunkard Chief of Staff also somehow ends up not only a general but within a few years of war's end a President! It's as if that country were under favor of the Almighty himself!

 

[JustinianTheGrand]

Oh yeah! I remember - some good ideas but based on flawed turns of events. That timeline even had the US having another long war with Britain a generation later, but despite the capitol city being burned to the ground somehow the United States forces *beat His Majesty's forces* in New Orleans *despite being outnumbered on land and sea*! And with some hick general no less! I did like the man's personality though, especially something about, "No real Kentuckian is without a bottle of bourbon, a deck of cards, and a rifle", or such. Then they survive a devastating Civil War against each other - the dominant faction had semi-automatic rifles at the war's start but refused to use them because 'the men would waste bullets'! With Sir William Sherman and Sir Robert Lee were on opposite sides as were Viceroy Davis and Viceroy Lincoln!!! Each pair were extremely good friends, could you imagine them having to fight each other like that?! Davis's drunkard Chief of Staff also somehow ends up not only a general but within a few years of war's end a President! It's as if that country were under favor of the Almighty himself!

I personally thought of it as an if not ideal at least the best realistic scenario for if America became free. A lot of Harold “Loggerhead” Quail’s other works are a bit more realistic. Like his story about the Africans winning the Second African War. While he was a bit vague about North America I believe a character mentioned an uprising in Boston over the pointlessness of the war.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Oh yeah! I remember - some good ideas but based on flawed turns of events. That timeline even had the US having another long war with Britain a generation later, but despite the capitol city being burned to the ground somehow the United States forces *beat His Majesty's forces* in New Orleans *despite being outnumbered on land and sea*! And with some hick general no less! I did like the man's personality though, especially something about, "No real Kentuckian is without a bottle of bourbon, a deck of cards, and a rifle", or such. Then they survive a devastating Civil War against each other - the dominant faction had semi-automatic rifles at the war's start but refused to use them because 'the men would waste bullets'! With Sir William Sherman and Sir Robert Lee were on opposite sides as were Viceroy Davis and Viceroy Lincoln!!! Each pair were extremely good friends, could you imagine them having to fight each other like that?! Davis's drunkard Chief of Staff also somehow ends up not only a general but within a few years of war's end a President! It's as if that country were under favor of the Almighty himself!

Well the TV Tropes page on the book (A Union's Wings if anyone's curious) does mention some plot points that lend credence.
-their first government actually really sucked and it took a decade to get the changes needed.
- it mentions that Lord Thomas Jefferson was an avid writer and even wrote the Eastern American Grand Charter. Him being chosen to justify independence isnt unsurprising
-The northeastern colonies have always been more industrial than the southern ones so the civil war (over a reasonable topic of slavery, which wouldnt have been abolished in the 1840s in any sovereign america)
--- plus the fact is America, well before any debatable power shift, was and is London's favorite spot to build war industry abroad. If America aere free and the northeast the dominant region in the 19th century, America could indeed be in a spot to "save britain" come the great wars

No idea how they spread across the continent in twenty years where it took britain 60. Or why Britain never intervened for favored tribes when the union was clearly going for total replacement (granted, otl Britain just carved out an artificial state in the Great Basin so you can debate merit of both) biggest oddity was by far that they didnt partake in the Scramble For Africa as a great power with an interest in handling their african subjects youd think they'd claim land to build a satellite.

Hell, why was Napoleon defeated in that world? The Haitian Revolution basically happened as otl, only difference I can think of is that Napoleon didn't offer them all the British land they captured in the Americs and Caribbean (not that they got much but still). Spain couldn't have sucked that manh resources. ... oh, oh right the Russians burned their own homeland. Something they only did when they had reserve stocks and hadn't since Sweden, despite their other losses.

And I get that a lot of you guys are from other parts off te empire or even outside it, but
-16 Colonies: original British land in N. America, plus cuba, florida, and the british Caribbean
-Canada: formed separately from the 16 in 1802 after the local governors sent notice to the king that the NY parliament was ignoring them
-Oregon: the Columbia territory administered separately due to the whole continent (and French Louisiana) between it and either of the other colonies. Extends from Vancouver NC to the San Francisco Bay
We're three distinct parts of the empire guys
Ooc: this isn't meant to really force anything onto the game but I mentioned a Dominion of Oregon which it seemed was being ignored, and a whole continent remaining part of the empire is really pushing it so some borders seemed needed

 

[JustinianTheGrand]

Well the TV Tropes page on the book (A Union's Wings if anyone's curious) does mention some plot points that lend credence.
-their first government actually really sucked and it took a decade to get the changes needed.
- it mentions that Lord Thomas Jefferson was an avid writer and even wrote the Eastern American Grand Charter. Him being chosen to justify independence isnt unsurprising
-The northeastern colonies have always been more industrial than the southern ones so the civil war (over a reasonable topic of slavery, which wouldnt have been abolished in the 1840s in any sovereign america)
--- plus the fact is America, well before any debatable power shift, was and is London's favorite spot to build war industry abroad. If America aere free and the northeast the dominant region in the 19th century, America could indeed be in a spot to "save britain" come the great wars

No idea how they spread across the continent in twenty years where it took britain 60. Or why Britain never intervened for favored tribes when the union was clearly going for total replacement (granted, otl Britain just carved out an artificial state in the Great Basin so you can debate merit of both) biggest oddity was by far that they didnt partake in the Scramble For Africa as a great power with an interest in handling their african subjects youd think they'd claim land to build a satellite.

Hell, why was Napoleon defeated in that world? The Haitian Revolution basically happened as otl, only difference I can think of is that Napoleon didn't offer them all the British land they captured in the Americs and Caribbean (not that they got much but still). Spain couldn't have sucked that manh resources. ... oh, oh right the Russians burned their own homeland. Something they only did when they had reserve stocks and hadn't since Sweden, despite their other losses.

And I get that a lot of you guys are from other parts off te empire or even outside it, but
-16 Colonies: original British land in N. America, plus cuba, florida, and the british Caribbean
-Canada: formed separately from the 16 in 1802 after the local governors sent notice to the king that the NY parliament was ignoring them
-Oregon: the Columbia territory administered separately due to the whole continent (and French Louisiana) between it and either of the other colonies. Extends from Vancouver NC to the San Francisco Bay
We're three distinct parts of the empire guys
Ooc: this isn't meant to really force anything onto the game but I mentioned a Dominion of Oregon which it seemed was being ignored, and a whole continent remaining part of the empire is really pushing it so some borders seemed needed

Honestly even though generally I’m all for local governments taking more power for themselves I feel like Canada is pretty artificial. They have fewer people by kilometers and the only really distinct part is Quebec and they already had self governance for the most part.

 

[M79]

Well with The Union's Wings having Napoleon sell Louisiana to those United States he would have had the money to set up an invasion threat earlier than OTL and rejects steamschooners and Fulton moves to the US. The Dominion of Charlotiana suddenly became the states of Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, and Wisconsin based out of 'Chicago' instead of Packingtown. The (Reconstituted) Dominion of New England reverts to eleven seperate colonies/states from Maine to Maryland while the Protectorate of Moroni somehow became 'Utah', among other things. Most interestingly it looks like Brazil got a much better monarch while Japan is somehow a republic with China unified...under Communists (who somehow still exist!).

 

[AltoRegnant]

Well with The Union's Wings having Napoleon sell Louisiana to those United States he would have had the money to set up an invasion threat earlier than OTL and rejects steamschooners and Fulton moves to the US. The Dominion of Charlotiana suddenly became the states of Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, and Wisconsin based out of 'Chicago' instead of Packingtown. The (Reconstituted) Dominion of New England reverts to eleven seperate colonies/states from Maine to Maryland while the Protectorate of Moroni somehow became 'Utah', among other things. Most interestingly it looks like Brazil got a much better monarch while Japan is somehow a republic with China unified...under Communists (who somehow still exist!).

If i remember right it's because the center of communism wasn't central europe (which in TUW has instead become tainted hyper-nationalist genocidal wannabe emperors) but Russia. This gave the commies the time to build up and support other grass root communist movements, though it ultimately backfired on them heavily with economic collapse

 

[Dolan]

If i remember right it's because the center of communism wasn't central europe (which in TUW has instead become tainted hyper-nationalist genocidal wannabe emperors) but Russia. This gave the commies the time to build up and support other grass root communist movements, though it ultimately backfired on them heavily with economic collapse

Even if their reputation is as black as they are now, the Opurchiniki are still extremely competent Vigile*/Counterintelligence hybrid organization. To have the Commies buikd up under the Tsar is just... inconceivable.

OOC: *) Alternate word for "Police", taken from Latin "Vigiles" that is basically Roman Paramilitary/Firefighters who tasked to keep peace in Roman Empire.

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

As usual, this thread is very American centric. While its true that the monarchy was not abolished in America, as the surviving Hanoverians relocated there after the revolution, it definitely was abolished in Britain. And maybe if George III had taken the advice of his ministers and took measures to address the desperate fiscal situation instead of trying to set up America as some sort of additional kingdom, the Second Commonwealth would have been avoided.

There is also an interesting butterfly on the history of the Indian subcontinent, since ITTL there is a good chance of the bailout of the East India Company actually happening.

 

[HIM Dogson]

As usual, this thread is very American centric. While its true that the monarchy was not abolished in America, as the surviving Hanoverians relocated there after the revolution, it definitely was abolished in Britain. And maybe if George III had taken the advice of his ministers and took measures to address the desperate fiscal situation instead of trying to set up America as some sort of additional kingdom, the Second Commonwealth would have been avoided.

There is also an interesting butterfly on the history of the Indian subcontinent, since ITTL there is a good chance of the bailout of the East India Company actually happening.

OOC: mate, this directly contradicts stuff that's been already established in this thread