AHC – Pre-War UK Chamberlain (Tory) vs Chamberlain (Liberal) Rivalry

[Masked Grizzly]

Depending on whether their father Joseph Chamberlain manages to become Prime Minister himself (via some a few pre-1900 PODs) from around the late-1890s to early-1900s, the challenge is to lay the groundwork for a rivalry between Austen (who possibly merits living another year or few) and Neville either one of whom leads the Conservative or resurgent Liberals.

The Pro–Rearmament vs Pro-Appeasement stances taken by the half-brothers in OTL can be either used as the main focus or be but one facet of the pre-war rivalry between them.

 

[Thomas1195]

Depending on whether their father Joseph Chamberlain manages to become Prime Minister himself (via some a few pre-1900 PODs) from around the late-1890s to early-1900s, the challenge is to lay the groundwork for a rivalry between Austen (who possibly merits living another year or few) and Neville either one of whom leads the Conservative or resurgent Liberals.

The only way to do so is to have Gladstone consulting with Chamberlain when writing his Home Rule Bill, which might have converted Chamberlain into pro-Home Rule camp.

the challenge is to lay the groundwork for a rivalry between Austen (who possibly merits living another year or few) and Neville either one of whom leads the Conservative or resurgent Liberals.

Austen would have likely become a Liberal if his father became so. However, you can convert Neville to a Conservative, by keeping him a businessman and converting him to protectionism.

And if Austen leads the Liberals ITTL, establishing an anti-appeasement stance within the whole party would be rather quick. Neville's pro-appeasement stance is also natural within the Tories as well.

 

[sarahz]

QUOTE="Thomas1195, post: 19734917, member: 97697"]The only way to do so is to have Gladstone consulting with Chamberlain when writing his Home Rule Bill, which might have converted Chamberlain into pro-Home Rule camp.


Austen would have likely become a Liberal if his father became so. However, you can convert Neville to a Conservative, by keeping him a businessman and converting him to protectionism.

And if Austen leads the Liberals ITTL, establishing an anti-appeasement stance within the whole party would be rather quick. Neville's pro-appeasement stance is also natural within the Tories as well.[/QUOTE]
hmm I would have thought it could happen later. Austen was like the rest of the Conservative front bench rather close to L-G. If for whatever reason Liberal numbers had been larger in the coalition, but the Tory back benches had still gone with bringing down the coalition in 1922 would Austen and others save their ministerial (future)offices by saying you know what stuff the Tories I prefer L-G's party?.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

The only way to do so is to have Gladstone consulting with Chamberlain when writing his Home Rule Bill, which might have converted Chamberlain into pro-Home Rule camp.

So a scenario where Joseph never defects via another version of Irish Home Rule together with no Crawford Scandal involving Charles Dilke?

What could persuade Chamberlain to join the pro-Home Rule camp?

Austen would have likely become a Liberal if his father became so. However, you can convert Neville to a Conservative, by keeping him a businessman and converting him to protectionism.

And if Austen leads the Liberals ITTL, establishing an anti-appeasement stance within the whole party would be rather quick. Neville's pro-appeasement stance is also natural within the Tories as well.

hmm I would have thought it could happen later. Austen was like the rest of the Conservative front bench rather close to L-G. If for whatever reason Liberal numbers had been larger in the coalition, but the Tory back benches had still gone with bringing down the coalition in 1922 would Austen and others save their ministerial (future)offices by saying you know what stuff the Tories I prefer L-G's party?.

Do not want to completely screw the Tories in this ATL and have Neville's pro-appeasement stance tarnish the party, as can still envision Winston Churchill replacing Neville or even Austen in the UK war ministry (if not later becoming PM in the post-war period).

Nevertheless can see Austen later leading the Liberals and succeeding David Lloyd-George without the troublesome pro-German stance of the latter, though not sure who would be a suitable successor to Austen in the Liberal party depending on whether he passes away in 1938-1940.

Domestically to what extent would an Austen led Liberal party have implemented Lloyd George's OTL 1928 Liberal Manifesto / Yellow Book (and thus helped the UK recover from the depression much quicker compared to OTL)?

 

[sarahz]

So a scenario where Joseph never defects via another version of Irish Home Rule together with no Crawford Scandal involving Charles Dilke?

What could persuade Chamberlain to join the pro-Home Rule camp?




Do not want to completely screw the Tories in this ATL and have Neville's pro-appeasement stance tarnish the party, as can still envision Winston Churchill replacing Neville or even Austen in the UK war ministry (if not later becoming PM in the post-war period).

Nevertheless can see Austen later leading the Liberals and succeeding David Lloyd-George without the troublesome pro-German stance of the latter, though not sure who would be a suitable successor to Austen in the Liberal party depending on whether he passes away in 1938-1940.

Domestically to what extent would an Austen led Liberal party have implemented Lloyd George's OTL 1928 Liberal Manifesto / Yellow Book (and thus helped the UK recover from the depression much quicker compared to OTL)?

well it would not have ben unreasonable for him to have done that after all his Fathers policies in Birmingham, if not so much nationally, were pretty interventionist, assuming Keynes has not fallen under a bus I think Austen would be intellectually agile enough to listen..

 

[Thomas1195]

Do not want to completely screw the Tories in this ATL and have Neville's pro-appeasement stance tarnish the party, as can still envision Winston Churchill replacing Neville or even Austen in the UK war ministry (if not later becoming PM in the post-war period).

Churchill ITTL might remain a liberal. I think the Tories would remain one of the two governing parties.

well it would not have ben unreasonable for him to have done that after all his Fathers policies in Birmingham, if not so much nationally, were pretty interventionist, assuming Keynes has not fallen under a bus I think Austen would be intellectually agile enough to listen..

Yes, because Joe Chamberlain remaining Liberals would have moved the party to the left earlier (and potentially blocking the rise of Labour).

What could persuade Chamberlain to join the pro-Home Rule camp?

Maybe some developments that might make him less imperialistic.

though not sure who would be a suitable successor to Austen in the Liberal party depending on whether he passes away in 1938-1940.

It could be still Archibald Sinclair, or Winston Churchill himself.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

well it would not have ben unreasonable for him to have done that after all his Fathers policies in Birmingham, if not so much nationally, were pretty interventionist, assuming Keynes has not fallen under a bus I think Austen would be intellectually agile enough to listen..

In other words an ATL Liberal Austen could have potentially won in 1929/1934 in place of David Lloyd-George, followed by a challenge from Neville?

Churchill ITTL might remain a liberal. I think the Tories would remain one of the two governing parties.

It could be still Archibald Sinclair, or Winston Churchill himself.

Interesting, though would be concerned with Neville tarnishing the Tories without a suitable alternative to Churchill as leader (even if the latter was not without his flaws).

 

[sarahz]

Churchill ITTL might remain a liberal. I think the Tories would remain one of the two governing parties.


Yes, because Joe Chamberlain remaining Liberals would have moved the party to the left earlier (and potentially blocking the rise of Labour).


Maybe some developments that might make him less imperialistic.

It could be still Archibald Sinclair, or Winston Churchill himself.

OTL there were moves supported by such as FE Smith at one stage to go for a UK of the Nations Devo-Max approach. Adopted earlier this might have worked

 

[sarahz]

In other words an ATL Liberal Austen could have potentially won in 1929/1934 in place of David Lloyd-George, followed by a challenge from Neville?




Interesting, though would be concerned with Neville tarnishing the Tories without a suitable alternative to Churchill as leader (even if the latter was not without his flaws).

There were other anti-appeasers in the Conservative party albeit albeit mostly a little short on experience like Eden

 

[Masked Grizzly]

There were other anti-appeasers in the Conservative party albeit albeit mostly a little short on experience like Eden

Would probably retain Churchill as a Tory in ATL, though curious to know which other anti-appeasers besides Eden were in the Conservative party.

Another interesting thing about this scenario would be how Labour evolves from hereon from the pre/post-war periods in terms of possible alternatives to the likes of Ramsay MacDonald, Arthur Henderson and Clement Attlee as well as other actions to make themselves more electable (such as amending/erasing Clause IV)?

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Also wonder whether there were any right-leaning Labour and left-leaning Tory politicians who could have switched to the Liberals during the post-war era and potentially become more suitable leadership candidates for the Liberals in the post-Austen Chamberlain era compared to the party's own crop of leaders in OTL?

Envision an ATL post-war scenario where Hugh Gaitskell still becomes leader of Labour as in OTL and manages to live a few more years, with Winston Churchill (defeating Attlee in 1950) being instead succeeded by Rab Butler (in place of Anthony Eden and Harold Macmillan) and thus leading to more "Butskellism" jokes amongst other things. Otherwise not sure which direction a revived and relevant Liberal party goes in this ATL context.

 

[Thomas1195]

Also wonder whether there were any right-leaning Labour and left-leaning Tory politicians

Harold Macmillan
Harold Wilson (was not right-wing Labour but was a liberal at early life)
Michael Heseltine (recruited by the Tories as a National Liberal)
Some politicians with Foot last name
Megan & Gwylim Lloyd George
Gang of Four

Would probably retain Churchill as a Tory in ATL, though curious to know which other anti-appeasers besides Eden were in the Conservative party.

Duff Cooper

Those people were, however, few, and most were not heavyweights.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Harold Macmillan
Harold Wilson (was not right-wing Labour but was a liberal at early life)
Michael Heseltine (recruited by the Tories as a National Liberal)
Some politicians with Foot last name
Megan & Gwylim Lloyd George
Gang of Four

Like the idea of Harold Macmillan leading the ATL Liberals against Gaitskell's Labour and Butler's Tories during the 1950s to early/mid-1960s.

In Harold Wilson's case it would be more interesting seeing him stick with Labour and still be subject to conspiracy theories as in OTL, especially if Gaitskell lives long enough to become Prime Minister only meet his demise in suspicious circumstances to Wilson's advantage. Otherwise wonder who else could succeed the Liberals under Macmillan from the mid-1960s to early/mid-1970s.

Am wondering when Michael Heseltine in this scenario assumes leadership in the ATL Liberals, am thinking thinking of mid-1970s to early/mid-1990s though it depends on how successful his position as leader is to have such political longevity as well as who in turn succeeds him as a Liberal leader capable of becoming Prime Minister from the late-1990s and onwards.

Did not know Michael Foot's brothers were politicians.

 

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