The Anglo/American - Nazi War

[Bookmark1995]

"One day?" Stuttgart would argue they're already dangerous close.

​

Stettin, not Stuttgart, Northeast Germany not Southwest

Well, TTL, most of the world sees Stettin as...a necessary evil as German nationalism can be blamed for the destruction of the old world. Germany TTL is a divided, impoverished, and broken nation, so no one really cares about a German city being obliterated.

But one day, the A4 might be ruled by someone with...even less restraint. ​

 

[JamesHunter]

Stettin, not Stuttgart, Northeast Germany not Southwest

Sorry its been weeks since I read the whole timeline through, still Stettin or Stuttgart resorting to orbital bombardment after you already broke a rebellion's back is an act that is difficult to find any justification for. Sure they might have wanted to make a point but shooting the ringleaders and dropping the hammer just outside the city still makes people brown their pants without killing 250,000 people many of whom had nothing to do with what happened.

 

[CalBear]

I think this may be my first time posting on this timeline - I recently rediscovered it years after (I think) it made me join this forum as a lurker and occasional commenter. Over the past month I have gotten precisely halfway to this page but I felt I had to post now - though not to comment on update 48 from 2011 but to comment on the fact that I discovered a series of YT map videos that show the events of this timeline without crediting Calbear.

I brought it up to the maker of the video but they didn't admit to it - even more so, they updated the description of the first video after the fact and then claimed that they actually had credited Calbear.

PS. I hope I'm not pointing out what may have already been discussed and thus wasting everyone's time. If so, I apologize.

Edit: link to the video:

I'm not sure if I should be monumentally offended or not.

They could at least have used better music.

 

[CalBear]

they basically said that Germany cannot reunite because they are too Savage and will ovbuiously go on a rampage across Europe. Im sure they also take this attitude to other nations which begin to rival them or are blatantly evil like China, to a lesser extent, but still there

Not savage. Untrustworthy. Which, frankly, may be worse.

 

[JamesHunter]

Not savage. Untrustworthy. Which, frankly, may be worse.

I'd say 96 million dead qualified for Savage and you can understand why the war generation (which in this TL is anyone born before about 1942) will never forgive or let Germany back on its feet. The interesting question is what happens when they all finally die off, can what happened ever truly be forgiven or will fifty generations of German's pay for their forefathers crime? Also I assume trouble will be coming out of China sooner or later?

 

[CalBear]

I'd say 96 million dead qualified for Savage and you can understand why the war generation (which in this TL is anyone born before about 1942) will never forgive or let Germany back on its feet. The interesting question is what happens when they all finally die off, can what happened ever truly be forgiven or will fifty generations of German's pay for their forefathers crime? Also I assume trouble will be coming out of China sooner or later?

I haven't decided if I'm going to extend beyond where the story currently stands, but eventually something will give way.

 

[SsgtC]

Sorry its been weeks since I read the whole timeline through, still Stettin or Stuttgart resorting to orbital bombardment after you already broke a rebellion's back is an act that is difficult to find any justification for. Sure they might have wanted to make a point but shooting the ringleaders and dropping the hammer just outside the city still makes people brown their pants without killing 250,000 people many of whom had nothing to do with what happened.

Keep in mind, this is a world where the full panoply of the NBC triad was unleashed on the world in a war that was more destructive than every other war in human history combined. And at the root of that war was Germany. And in this world, there is no difference between German and Nazi. There people of this world have been so horrifically scarred by the events of WWII that what they consider to be acceptable and just are far different from our world. What we see as a war crime (the destruction of Stettin), they see as the Damn Nazis getting what they deserved because they apparently didn't learn their lesson the last time

 

[JamesHunter]

Keep in mind, this is a world where the full panoply of the NBC triad was unleashed on the world in a war that was more destructive than every other war in human history combined. And at the root of that war was Germany. And in this world, there is no difference between German and Nazi. There people of this world have been so horrifically scarred by the events of WWII that what they consider to be acceptable and just are far different from our world. What we see as a war crime (the destruction of Stettin), they see as the Damn Nazis getting what they deserved because they apparently didn't learn their lesson the last time

True I suppose, but after 40 years one would hope the horror of what happened might be wearing off enough that maybe moderation is being considered...But I guess the damage is to great at least for the current generation?

 

[SsgtC]

True I suppose, but after 40 years one would hope the horror of what happened might be wearing off enough that maybe moderation is being considered...But I guess the damage is to great at least for the current generation?

Probably not. Figure 40 years since the war ended, that means the people who fought in the War are now in their late 50s through early 70s. Those same people are now leading their respective nations. They saw first hand the horrors of Nazi Germany. To them, they probably think they went too easy on Germany by only destroying Stettin

 

[Bookmark1995]

True I suppose, but after 40 years one would hope the horror of what happened might be wearing off enough that maybe moderation is being considered...But I guess the damage is to great at least for the current generation?

Probably not. Figure 40 years since the war ended, that means the people who fought in the War are now in their late 50s through early 70s. Those same people are now leading their respective nations. They saw first hand the horrors of Nazi Germany. To them, they probably think they went too easy on Germany by only destroying Stettin

Consider this: TTL, the war didn't end until 1960! Which means that, legally, there might have been people born as late as 1941 who would've sent in to fight.

The TTL Baby Boomers would've been children who grew up being taught that the great enemy was Nazism. Not only did they grow up with these events, they probably witnessed relatives being marched off to war against the Nazis, and when those relatives returned, they went into great detail about the barbarity of Nazism.

In short, even TTL millennials (people born in the 1980s and 1990s) will have had parents and grandparents who fought against the Nazis.

So, it will be a couple generations before the vivid memories of Nazi crimes begin to fade. And it will be centuries before the physicals scars on the land (anthrax attacks, nuclear detonations, poisoning of wells) can ever be fully healed. And some things (like Paris, the cultural destruction of Europe, European Jewry) will never, ever be healed.

Not savage. Untrustworthy. Which, frankly, may be worse.

I'd say 96 million dead qualified for Savage and you can understand why the war generation (which in this TL is anyone born before about 1942) will never forgive or let Germany back on its feet. The interesting question is what happens when they all finally die off, can what happened ever truly be forgiven or will fifty generations of German's pay for their forefathers crime? Also I assume trouble will be coming out of China sooner or later?

The Nazis ITTL basically were modern day Mongols: they not only defeated an enemy, there were willing to kill until the muddy streets were slippery with the fat of their victims.

They not only conquered Baghdad, they destroyed books to make sandals for themselves.

The Nazis not only conquered Europe, but trashed and plundered huge portions of it.

All with the great modern innovations born from the age of liberalism.

Again, they were more evil then any savage.

 

[uja11]

The way I understood it, the Democrats were in charge for the duration of the war in the US but eventually, they lost the dominance after the war. Though that's beside the point - I was wondering - how, if in any way, did the war influence the general philosophies of both parties? Was there a shift for the parties similar to the one that happened between the late 19th century and the 1930s where the Democrats went from the party of small government to the party of big government and vice versa for the republicans?

 

[Bookmark1995]

The way I understood it, the Democrats were in charge for the duration of the war in the US but eventually, they lost the dominance after the war. Though that's beside the point - I was wondering - how, if in any way, did the war influence the general philosophies of both parties? Was there a shift for the parties similar to the one that happened between the late 19th century and the 1930s where the Democrats went from the party of small government to the party of big government and vice versa for the republicans?

After decades of hyper-Keynesian wartime spending, anything resembling Reaganomics never really caught on, as Americans were collectively united against fascism for roughly a generation.

 

[wcv215]

True I suppose, but after 40 years one would hope the horror of what happened might be wearing off enough that maybe moderation is being considered...But I guess the damage is to great at least for the current generation?

In OTL in the immediate predecing time of Germany reuniting, and then immediately afterward there were a LOT of fears that the country would immediately return to its roots as an imperialistic and aggressive state that completely changed the power balance in Europe. This did not happen, and we know that with hindsight that it wasn't going to.

That's OTL. A timeline where West Germany had been a NATO ally for 40 years. That was a Germany that had been rehabilitated, confronted its Nazi past and sworn to itself that that would never happen again.

TTL's Germany was a lot worse than OTL's due to the extra fifteen years of Nazi rule. The fears of what will happen if Germany reunites will still be palpable for everyone.

 

[Bookmark1995]

TTL, does anything resembling "moral majority" politics exist?

Will the veterans of the most awful war in history listen to people who think "homicidal abortion" and "the homosexual agenda" are the greatest threats to "the family?" Or would they be seen as the polarizing fearmongers that they are? Is religion in politics taboo ITTL or will religious people take the anti-clericalism of Nazi Germany and use it to promote themselves as "defenders of God and freedom".

 

[CalBear]

TTL, does anything resembling "moral majority" politics exist?

Will the veterans of the most awful war in history listen to people who think "homicidal abortion" and "the homosexual agenda" are the greatest threats to "the family?" Or would they be seen as the polarizing fearmongers that they are? Is religion in politics taboo ITTL or will religious people take the anti-clericalism of Nazi Germany and use it to promote themselves as "defenders of God and freedom".

There are always, probably always will be, both the deeply religious and those who want to impose their personal belief system on others (ironically the two groups have a much smaller overlap than might be expected). The War didn't change that as much as make some of the language used different.

Politically the "Moral Majority", which was more or less a marketing gimmick that worked WAY better than even the inventors thought possible, didn't happen. Not because there aren't always folks trying to play angles in politics, but because the set of circumstances that allowed the "Moral Majority" to become a movement did not coincide ATL.

 

[CalBear]

True I suppose, but after 40 years one would hope the horror of what happened might be wearing off enough that maybe moderation is being considered...But I guess the damage is to great at least for the current generation?

There is also, although it is rarely seen this way, the fact that, IOTL, Germany was actually occupied for 45 years after the war, had a major part of the country (Norther East Prussia, now the Kalinigrad Oblast) permanently absorbed by the USSR/Russia and had other large territories taken by the Soviets and handed to the Poles as "compensation" after the USSR permanently annexed All of Poland east of the Curzon Line.

While the WAllies treated their sectors of Germany post war as a ally fairly soon after the War, the Soviets stripped their Zone bare, and, as was the case with all of the Pact countries maintained a virtual occupation army until the collapse of the USSR.

ATL the WAllies were just more direct about it, and far less willing to let bygones be bygones (although it is worth wondering just how much of that was simply due to the fact that the West needed a strong BDR, and Japan for that matter, to be the front of the shield against the Soviets).

 

[Bookmark1995]

There are always, probably always will be, both the deeply religious and those who want to impose their personal belief system on others (ironically the two groups have a much smaller overlap than might be expected). The War didn't change that as much as make some of the language used different.

​

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While religion has always been a huge part of American life for better (the abolitionist crusades of William Lloyd Garrison) and for worse (Vance Muse and his anti-union Christian rhetoric), the specific rise of "marketing gimmick" religious politics can be traced to Eisenhower and his corporate buddies, who began incorporating religious ideals (this is wear "under god" and the National Prayer Breakfast comes in.

I'm guessing TTL, this never occurs as the "eternal enemy" isn't an atheist Soviet Union, but a demonic Nazi Germany.

 

[CalBear]

While religion has always been a huge part of American life for better (the abolitionist crusades of William Lloyd Garrison) and for worse (Vance Muse and his anti-union Christian rhetoric), the specific rise of "marketing gimmick" religious politics can be traced to Eisenhower and his corporate buddies, who began incorporating religious ideals (this is wear "under god" and the National Prayer Breakfast comes in.

I'm guessing TTL, this never occurs as the "eternal enemy" isn't an atheist Soviet Union, but a demonic Nazi Germany.

Ike & Co were doing that as an anti-communism effort. The Moral Majority was of a reaction to the 60s-70s counter culture/sexual revolution/civil rights movement. Going much beyond this is actually more of a Chat subject, especially once you really start doing comparisons.

 

[farmerted555]

True I suppose, but after 40 years one would hope the horror of what happened might be wearing off enough that maybe moderation is being considered...But I guess the damage is to great at least for the current generation?

I believe ITTL Germany will be reunified about...a week before the next Ice Age. IF the A4 feel like it.

 

[ghappy1000]

Has anybody considered about what happened to the exiled Hohenzollern royals still alive after 1960 in this timeline?