kernals12
Banned
Either way, crime wasn't the only thing pushing people out. London and Paris, both with much lower crime rates, also lost a ton of people to the suburbs after the war. Cities are noisy, crowded, and at the time, very polluted.
New York Thinks Big
- Thread starter kernals12
- Start date
Oh yes, cities always have their problems as well as their benefits, with ups and downs as a consequence. And I’m not completely sold on the idea that TEL was such a huge social factor anyway.
I just like to point out just how close the responsible authorities came to banning TEL from the get-go for completely valid safety reasons, before the lobbyists got involved.
I recently read Routes Not Taken, a history of the development, and lack thereof, of the NYC subway system.
Given that they kept on not being able to find funding for desperately wanted subway extensions, how the heck are the going to get the money for THIS massive project?
IMO, if you want a bigger NYC, get good transit to the edges of Queens and Brooklyn, and to Staten island AT ALL!!!
No need for filling in harbours.
Then once you've done that, get more of Long Island, maybe Yonkers, maybe parts of NJ. It would be easy to get the population WAY up, but it needs good public transport. Including massively developed subways.
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Not that I am recommending this, but it would be better, and probably cheaper than this massive landfill...
Given that they kept on not being able to find funding for desperately wanted subway extensions, how the heck are the going to get the money for THIS massive project?
IMO, if you want a bigger NYC, get good transit to the edges of Queens and Brooklyn, and to Staten island AT ALL!!!
No need for filling in harbours.
Then once you've done that, get more of Long Island, maybe Yonkers, maybe parts of NJ. It would be easy to get the population WAY up, but it needs good public transport. Including massively developed subways.
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Not that I am recommending this, but it would be better, and probably cheaper than this massive landfill...
kernals12
Banned
Manhattan real estate is incredibly valuable. This landfill would easily pay for itself.
There are large parts of Brooklyn and Queens (and Hudson County, NJ) that have low density that could be densified for lower cost, even with the expense of better transit, roads and other infrastructure. Filling in the East River or the Hudson would be a massive engineering feat with tons of potential engineering and environmental disasters built in.
If any of the options were taken, keeping both rivers open and extending Manhattan southwards towards Staten Island looks to be the most possible/plausible.
If any of the options were taken, keeping both rivers open and extending Manhattan southwards towards Staten Island looks to be the most possible/plausible.
kernals12
Banned
In the 1920s, the goal of city planners was lower density. Cities were overcrowded and populating Queens and Brooklyn with tenements was not preferable to just adding new land.
marathag
Banned
What disasters? Its no different that what the Dutch had been doing for a very long time.
And it was once 'New Amsterdam' as well. They just needed to go the extra mile
It’s expensive because there isn’t much of it. Remove the geographic constraints and watch the price plummet
Oh? That's sure not what the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens politicians were saying during that time in the book I cited above.
Admittedly, it wasn't tenements they were looking for, but they sure as heck wanted increased population and density.
There was still farmland in the northern Bronx, a little in Brooklyn, and lots in Queens.
kernals12
Banned
It's pedway time
1935
New York's retailers were complaining that foot traffic was being taken away by the newly filled in lands with their elevated Pedestrian Walkways. So, a group of them hatched an idea:
New York already had elevated structures going along many of its streets in the form of elevated railroads. But these elevated railroads were obsolete thanks to the subways. So it was suggested they be shut down and turned into Pedestrians paths. Then they could be hooked up to surrounding buildings.
Mayor Fiorello Laguardia was delighted by this idea and once service on the El Trains ended by 1945, they were converted to Pedestrian walkways, known as the High Line.
And over time, it was supplemented by skywalks. Today, the system is 100 miles long and makes getting around New York on foot exceptionally easy and safe.
1935
New York's retailers were complaining that foot traffic was being taken away by the newly filled in lands with their elevated Pedestrian Walkways. So, a group of them hatched an idea:
New York already had elevated structures going along many of its streets in the form of elevated railroads. But these elevated railroads were obsolete thanks to the subways. So it was suggested they be shut down and turned into Pedestrians paths. Then they could be hooked up to surrounding buildings.
Mayor Fiorello Laguardia was delighted by this idea and once service on the El Trains ended by 1945, they were converted to Pedestrian walkways, known as the High Line.
And over time, it was supplemented by skywalks. Today, the system is 100 miles long and makes getting around New York on foot exceptionally easy and safe.
kernals12
Banned
And it would all be filled in short order. Here's the thing to remember; from 1790 to 1940, except for the decade between 1810 and 1819, New York City grew faster than the nation as a whole between every census. In the early 20th century, it was anticipated this would continue as the nation became increasingly urbanized.
Also, there is still a premium for land in Manhattan over the outer boroughs, that's because it still takes a long time to commute even on the subway. Furthermore, this wouldn't just add more land to Manhattan. By bringing Staten Island into much closer proximity, that borough, which IOTL no one likes or cares about, could be dramatically densified.
It would be far more sensible to propose filling in Jamaica Bay than filling the East River which has incredibly strong currents- strong enough to hamper any landfill plans en masse. The landfill on the East River is much smaller in size than landfill poured in along the Hudson River. Not because of the ease of doing it but because of the current.
Then there's the fact that the East River at the time was the center of maritime for NYC, not the Hudson. The important Brooklyn Navy Yard was along the East River- good luck getting the US government to okay basically closing one of it's active naval shipyards. Alongside that were various portages and shipbuilders, which would not be keen on moving unless dutifully compensated. The Jamaica Bay would be a good promise to them but it would have to come first for them to consider it.
And with that, if you're already developing Queens why not center promoting more commercial and residential development there with the Bay project? There was plenty of land in Queens that was still unused. The promise of a massive new seaport would generate the need for commerce in the area. Jamaica would likely begin to look more and more like downtown Brooklyn in that case.
Then there's the fact that the East River at the time was the center of maritime for NYC, not the Hudson. The important Brooklyn Navy Yard was along the East River- good luck getting the US government to okay basically closing one of it's active naval shipyards. Alongside that were various portages and shipbuilders, which would not be keen on moving unless dutifully compensated. The Jamaica Bay would be a good promise to them but it would have to come first for them to consider it.
And with that, if you're already developing Queens why not center promoting more commercial and residential development there with the Bay project? There was plenty of land in Queens that was still unused. The promise of a massive new seaport would generate the need for commerce in the area. Jamaica would likely begin to look more and more like downtown Brooklyn in that case.
That solves one half of the issue (at least until the changing current damages it). The other half still needs to be addressed and that's convincing the US government to close down the Brooklyn Naval Yard, something that I don't think city planners can achieve easily. It would likely be a long back and forth and by the time they finish the Depression would be in swing. Then WW2 would break out, holding back any effort to close the yard.
marathag
Banned
After the Naval Treaties, they had been building the South Dakotas that were all scrapped, and did makework before the Depression, down to 3000 workers.
The US had a surplus of Yards at the time
Ethanol or methanol? Leading to a boom in agricultural production? Or to research into algae to produce it? Or research into conversion of wood to alcohol?
kernals12
Banned
I'm correcting a hideous wrong
1963
New York's Penn Station was an architectural gem and yet there were plans to demolish it as rail traffic declined.
Those plans were thankfully scuttled and instead, the rail terminals were moved underground while the original building was turned into a shopping mall.
1963
New York's Penn Station was an architectural gem and yet there were plans to demolish it as rail traffic declined.
Those plans were thankfully scuttled and instead, the rail terminals were moved underground while the original building was turned into a shopping mall.
kernals12
Banned
1957
The traffic from the Sea Port was still getting worse. Trucks from New England were clogging up the highways.
It was decided to build a bridge across the Long Island sound so that traffic could arrive from the East. The 25 mile span, crossing from Orient Point, New York to Watch Hill, would be the longest in the world at the time as it spanned over Plum Island, Great Gull Island, and Fishers Island. Construction started in 1959 and finished in 1964.
The traffic from the Sea Port was still getting worse. Trucks from New England were clogging up the highways.
It was decided to build a bridge across the Long Island sound so that traffic could arrive from the East. The 25 mile span, crossing from Orient Point, New York to Watch Hill, would be the longest in the world at the time as it spanned over Plum Island, Great Gull Island, and Fishers Island. Construction started in 1959 and finished in 1964.
kernals12
Banned
1957
Work began on a new modernized Ebbets Field, home to the Brooklyn Dodgers. The stadium would be domed allowing it to be used year round comfortably. There would also be much more parking as well as shopping and a convention center. Construction was completed in 1962.
Work began on a new modernized Ebbets Field, home to the Brooklyn Dodgers. The stadium would be domed allowing it to be used year round comfortably. There would also be much more parking as well as shopping and a convention center. Construction was completed in 1962.
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