An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

B444 also mentioned that will be one of the updates coming soon, about Rhomania getting back as much of it's lost legacy.

See, this does leave me at a loss here. We don't exactly have a situation to get the undisputed title of Roman Emperor as well, that treaty has already been signed.

The Romans can't really get their old borders back without taking on Spain, the Truines, and Arles.

What part of their legacy is it going to be at the moment? Ending the Schism and having Europe choose Roman Orthodoxy? That seems mad.
 

Cryostorm

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See, this does leave me at a loss here. We don't exactly have a situation to get the undisputed title of Roman Emperor as well, that treaty has already been signed.

The Romans can't really get their old borders back without taking on Spain, the Truines, and Arles.

What part of their legacy is it going to be at the moment? Ending the Schism and having Europe choose Roman Orthodoxy? That seems mad.
I meant physical legacy such as the artifacts that were looted post 1204.
 
What part of their legacy is it going to be at the moment? Ending the Schism and having Europe choose Roman Orthodoxy? That seems mad.
The Romans have a long history of madlad Emperors though right.
Basil II conquered Bulgaria, John II Tzimiskes could have conquered much of the Levant had he not died suddenly of illness. Konstantinos XI managed to both reclaim the Morea and rebuild the Hexamillion Walls in the 15th century. Justinian and Belisarius practically steamrolled the West until the Persians invaded. Heraclius single-handedly fought the Persians and restored the Empire after its near destruction at the hands of the Sassanids. Mare Nostrum must be restored and Italy needs to be "liberated" from the fake Romans and brought back into the Roman fold. Renovatii Imperii or bust!

Hey @Basileus444 how come no other Emperors were named Justinian III or took up Ioustinianos as their regnal name upon their coronation? Is the name seen as inauspicious or something?
 
The Romans have a long history of madlad Emperors though right.
Basil II conquered Bulgaria, John II Tzimiskes could have conquered much of the Levant had he not died suddenly of illness. Konstantinos XI managed to both reclaim the Morea and rebuild the Hexamillion Walls in the 15th century. Justinian and Belisarius practically steamrolled the West until the Persians invaded. Heraclius single-handedly fought the Persians and restored the Empire after its near destruction at the hands of the Sassanids. Mare Nostrum must be restored and Italy needs to be "liberated" from the fake Romans and brought back into the Roman fold. Renovatii Imperii or bust!

Hey @Basileus444 how come no other Emperors were named Justinian III or took up Ioustinianos as their regnal name upon their coronation? Is the name seen as inauspicious or something?
Yeah, and how come none have been named Basil? The other two Basil's that became emperor were some of their best.
 
Yeah, and how come none have been named Basil? The other two Basil's that became emperor were some of their best.
Imagine having to live up to those legacies? I wouldn't want to put that on my kid.

More seriously it is likely coincidence. There were a hilarious number of Constantines after all.
 
They’ve only had 11 Constantines in AaoM. Although a Michael X would be appreciated.

...How about another Demetrios? *smirks malevolently* "Do it."

1421657233490.jpg

But really, isn't half the fun of founding an empire giving half your descendants the same name as you?
 
...How about another Demetrios? *smirks malevolently* "Do it."

1421657233490.jpg

But really, isn't half the fun of founding an empire giving half your descendants the same name as you?
Laughs in French.
There are basically over 20 different King Louis if you count the current pretenders and names like Clovis which was what the name Louis is derived from. There’s also 10 different King Charles as well. Every Napoleonic heir took the regnal name of Napoleon (insert Roman numeral here). Napoleon VIII or Jean-Christophe is the current legitimate heir to the French Imperial Throne and House Bonaparte.
Constantine the Great’s sons names were all variations of his own name:
Constantine, Contans, and Constantine.
 
Triune court is based in King's Harbour
Has King's Harbour grown enough to place it in the Top 10 cities worldwide in terms of population or wealth? (Maybe the larger metropolitan area together with Dover has). Either way, if the Triunes manage to stay together for a couple more hundred years added to the accelerated technology ITTL, I foresee the Chunnel being built in the 19th century.

uplift the English language to levels of prestige in government, culture, and science
Something akin although distinct to how Greek was to Latin in the OG Roman Empire?

will not compensate for the loss of treasure
Really depends on how successful naval looting is compared to the sacking of cities then.
 
Has King's Harbour grown enough to place it in the Top 10 cities worldwide in terms of population or wealth? (Maybe the larger metropolitan area together with Dover has). Either way, if the Triunes manage to stay together for a couple more hundred years added to the accelerated technology ITTL, I foresee the Chunnel being built in the 19th century.
King's Harbour is located in OTL Le Havre IIRC.

There's lots of potential for exponential growth in that region around the Seine Estuary, likely taking the place of OTL developments in Portsmouth and Southampton that occurred OTL vis-a-vis channel trade.

Something akin although distinct to how Greek was to Latin in the OG Roman Empire?
Sorta.

It's more like, making a language have value in high social circles. It was a concern for nationalist movements in the 19th century to write literary works in their own language in order to gain legitimacy internationally and to powerful people nationally. For example the efforts of Irish Nationalists to publish their folk stories in Irish. IOTL most prestige languages are the languages spoken by the ruling class. In Europe, that's Latin, in India it's Sanskrit or Persian, in the middle east it's Arabic, in East Asia it's Mandarin. In medieval England the language of the noble class was Norman French, that was the prestigious thing and it was how written records were recorded alongside Latin. English was the language of the peasants, and did not have a perceived value beyond communication with the unwashed masses. English was not a language a man of prestige had to know, for to read great literary works like Historia Regnum Britannia by Geoffrey of Monmouth one had to know Latin, to read great poetry such as Tristain and Iseult by Thomas of Britain, The Song of Roland, or anything by Chretien de Troyes like Lancelot, Perceval, and Yvain you read Old French. If you wanted to read court documents you read Latin or Law French. If you wanted to speak with nobles, you learned Old French, for priests, Latin, speak in parliament, French. The business of government was not done in the local tongue as it wasn't seen as having value for such complicated and serious matters or lacking ability to enunciate such things. Which is of course untrue, although this belief has been held by many cultures over many periods.

In England this changed when, due to proto-nationalist sentiment during the Hundred Years War in the mid 14th century, the English Government and ruling class re-identified itself as English. Parliament opened and closed and communicated in Middle English, you could use English in a law court, government records could be made in English, nobles spoke English to each other, and the Middle English language saw a literary boom with the Wycliffe Bible, The Canterbury Tales by Geoffrey Chaucer, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, and more. Now people saw English as a language with high society behind it and an ability to speak these complicated legal terms, write poetry, and more.

Greek was prestigious in the Roman Empire but the language of government, law, poetry, all that was still available in Latin. Think about the role of Scots Gaelic, Welsh, and Irish in Early Modern Britain. Or Celtic, Britonnic, Iberian, Punic, German, Egyptian, Syriac, and Illyrian in the Roman Empire. Greek isn't really a good comparison because it already had a prestige when the Romans conquered Greece. It never lost its prestige for government, law, religion, poetry, and science after conquest the way other languages were. It is better to think of English as a subservient language that had to be brought up to a level of respect to be used in high society rather than one that never lost that prestige. There aren't many examples of that IOTL until the 19th and 20th century nationalist and post-colonial movements.
 
Are the triune mainland colonies mostly English speaking? I'd personally expect that while the island colonies be mostly french speaking.
Makes me wonder if the Triunes don't have the historic French animosity towards emigration to the Americas. 10,000 immigrants from France compared to 380,000 from Britain during the seventeenth century is pitifully small.
 
Long-term post development of Nationalism the Triune state is 100% doomed. National identities will appear, they will demand rights, they will cause problems for the government, and they will have to eventually grant independence or concessions in some form. There are simply too many English and Irish for that and they are too geographically concentrated to be a minority that must toe the line due to being so outclassed like the Bretons, Welsh, Sorbs, Basques, Frisians, and other small minority groups within larger countries. However the form that this independence takes does not necessarily mean the end of the Triune state. The Romans will be developing a federal empire of sorts based around the framework of the despotates so there is no reason that the Trinues cannot do the same with England, France, Ireland, and their independent colonies. The resulting empire of one crown and many autonomous kingdoms/dominions could likely be perceived as one 'empire' in the modern TTL sense of the word. We IOTL may consider it many closely aligned independent countries but with a theoretical precedent of this sort of imperial power bloc presented by the Romans and Triunes this sort of inter-state compact could simply be perceived by TTL people as the modern expression of empire in a post-national age.

This is actually quite unlikely given some of the reasons you mentionned earlier in your post. It has been mentioned before that the Triple Monarchy has a single state religion. This will be a very powerful unifying force and there won't be the Catholic/Protestant divide that plagued the relationship between Great Britain and Ireland for example.

There's also been mention before in the threads that the Trinue colonies overseas are seeing the emergence of a local language that combines English, French and Irish. This makes sense given who the makeup the colonist is going to be.

Another hugely powerful unifying force lies in the horizon too. The industrial revolution. Just like it played a part in unifying the United Kingdom, it can do the same here on a larger scale. There's iron ore in Normandy, it wasn't much used OTL despite the potential but it will very likely be used TTL. The coal will come by boat from South Wales or Northern England. Kings Landing will become a centre of commerce but other cities like Caen could become centres of Industry TTL. Nomandy's may not become the Rhur but it could definitely become as industrialised as Northern England was OTL. The region is ideal for textile industry as it has a large population and rivers aplenty.

OTL France and England already have far more in common culturally than they realise, especially between Southern England and Northern France. The differences will be even fewer TTL as all OTL influences from southern France will be non-existent. Consider some of the likely changes from OTL:
- The national drink of France may not be wine but cider or beer OTL. Most of the wineyards of Bordeaux along to another country
- A lot of items traditionally associated with French cuisine are from southern France, ratatouille, roquefort, truffles etc. Potatoes, wheat and beef will be the dominant staple on both sides of the Channel. TTL French cuisine will be a lot more "English" than OTL ...
- Northern France has a sort of common law system OTL. Southern France has a Roman law based system. Therefore, dominant legal tradition in the Triple Kingdom will be common law based. Roman law will be seen as something alien and foreign.

The eventual political structure of the Triple Kingdom could vary from a unitary state to a more likely federation or near federation that includes the overseas parts of the Empire.
 
This is actually quite unlikely given some of the reasons you mentionned earlier in your post. It has been mentioned before that the Triple Monarchy has a single state religion. This will be a very powerful unifying force and there won't be the Catholic/Protestant divide that plagued the relationship between Great Britain and Ireland for example.

There's also been mention before in the threads that the Trinue colonies overseas are seeing the emergence of a local language that combines English, French and Irish. This makes sense given who the makeup the colonist is going to be.

Another hugely powerful unifying force lies in the horizon too. The industrial revolution. Just like it played a part in unifying the United Kingdom, it can do the same here on a larger scale. There's iron ore in Normandy, it wasn't much used OTL despite the potential but it will very likely be used TTL. The coal will come by boat from South Wales or Northern England. Kings Landing will become a centre of commerce but other cities like Caen could become centres of Industry TTL. Nomandy's may not become the Rhur but it could definitely become as industrialised as Northern England was OTL. The region is ideal for textile industry as it has a large population and rivers aplenty.

OTL France and England already have far more in common culturally than they realise, especially between Southern England and Northern France. The differences will be even fewer TTL as all OTL influences from southern France will be non-existent. Consider some of the likely changes from OTL:
- The national drink of France may not be wine but cider or beer OTL. Most of the wineyards of Bordeaux along to another country
- A lot of items traditionally associated with French cuisine are from southern France, ratatouille, roquefort, truffles etc. Potatoes, wheat and beef will be the dominant staple on both sides of the Channel. TTL French cuisine will be a lot more "English" than OTL ...
- Northern France has a sort of common law system OTL. Southern France has a Roman law based system. Therefore, dominant legal tradition in the Triple Kingdom will be common law based. Roman law will be seen as something alien and foreign.

The eventual political structure of the Triple Kingdom could vary from a unitary state to a more likely federation or near federation that includes the overseas parts of the Empire.
I'm honestly hoping for a more unstable Triune state. I think it would lead to more interesting outcomes. Though I will agree religious conformity, if it stays that way, will be a binding force that will be hard to break prior to something akin to OTL 20th century.
 
The religious unity or lack thereof really comes down to how the church has been constructed. Is it one single "imperial church" with an all powerful head who can move throughout the realm at will, 2 or 3 "national churches" with the reigning monarch as the head and glue, or dozens of "regional churches" without an upper hierarchy.

Ideally for the Triunes it will be an Imperial Church but I get the feeling it is national churches in England, France, and Ireland. The church itself was established relatively early after the establishment of the Triunes and at the time it would have been beneficial to have local elites in charge of local institutions and it keeps the church from being able to develop a counter to the monarch since only the monarch represents the entire Empire. Though this would have been advantageous in the short term long term it prevents the unifying nature of the church since like the governments themselves the only common thread of the national churches is the reigning monarch.

I doubt at this point the Triunes are going to break up completely, there is too much history and ties amongst the elite, but a prolonged period of unrest not unlike the TOT is practically inevitable the moment they don't have a hyper capable monarch. For all the intermixing culturally from the snippets we've gotten England and France and Ireland are still distinct entities that have their own national interests that require capable balancing from the monarch. They have been lucky to have a solid 2 centuries of monarchs who can do this, not unlike Rome during the AOM. I get the feeling that King Henry? though is going to be their equivalent of Andreas Niketas. An extremely capable leader who brings them to a relative height but does not do enough to ensure a smooth succession leading to a period of decline and unrest. Unfortunately for the Triunes this unrest is likely going to come during the late 17th/early 18th centuries and by the time they come out of it there will be less room to maneuver to re-establish their strength as the world is "smaller" than it was when Rome came out of theirs in the 16th century and so they drop out of the top tier powers temporarily until the industrial revolution which I don't doubt they will dominate in the early decades.
 
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