TL-191 Uniform, weapons and equipment of the Secondary Combatants.

[pattontank12]

1918 Quebecois Army officer test firing the Huot Automatic Rifle. Developed by legendary Quebecois weapons engineer Joseph Huot for the Canadian Army during the First Great the HAR was intended as a force multiplier for Canadian troops, facing off against the numerically superior Union Army. Using a conversion of the Ross Rifle that had been recently taken out of service before the First Great War for conversion into a light machine gun, since there was an at the time a sizable surplus of the weapon.

It was quickly rushed into service during the final days of the War, proving popular amongst Canadian troops and a nightmare for their Union foes, though not enough to prevent the inevitable. Post war the Rifle was adopted as the standard issue Light Machine Gun of the Quebecois military, where it would once again see service during the Second Great War.

 

[Undeadmuffin]

Would Quebec be able to produce something like the Mosquito be for bombing, transport and/or supply ?

I imagined that in the middle of the Canadian rebellion, with their units scattered and/or cut from supply, the Quebec army might try to devlop a cheap and fast transport plane to supply and support its occupation troops.

 

[Undeadmuffin]

Harfang QC-2

The old Canada Car and Foundry of Montreal was bought by the Quebec state after the independance and was tasked to create a long-range plane for transport and exploitation of the northern region of the Republic, still not linked by road. Unable to make a viable project, unable to hit the target demanded, the company finnaly approached the US air company Douglas.

Douglas had made a prototype for a bi-motor, the DC-1, but had been forced to abandon it after Boeing launched the Boeing 250, superior in every point to the DC-1 prototype, making instead the very successful DL-2 Vega. Quebecair (the new name of the Canada Car and Foundry) bought the prototype and worked from it. Despite the plan of motorization with the new Lockheed R-1400, the war and recquisition of Lockheed factory for war production forced an emergency plan. They bought liscence right for an older engine, the Cyclone Gr-F01 and made a lighter version with modern materials.

The culmination was the Harfang QC-2 (the QC-1 was the prototype with R-1400 engine). It came just in time for the Canadian revolt and the supply problems that the Quebec troops faced. Newly built ''Harfang'' were ''loaned'' to the occupation forces in Canada but piloted by Quebecois pilots. Made in wood, with light engines and often modified with skies, the cheap plane had a great range of 1700 km (1058 miles)

Unsung for years since it didn't carried any weapons nor made any bombing mission, the wounded soldiers and those left stranded without supply were glad each time they heared the caracteristic humming of its engine and greatly welcomed the sight of the Harfang.

 

[Petike]

Some stuff I did in the past, in propaganda form.

"Here is the brave and thankful pal of the US, the common Irish soldier. While he still may be wearing a Brodie Helmet and using other captured British equipment, he sure wants to throw off the centuries long yoke put on him by those perfiduous Actionist Limeys !"

By "Actionist" I mean a possible TL 191 term for "Fascist", derived from the name of the Action Francais, the main fascist leadership of that timeline beyond Featherston's Freedom Party in the CSA. Calling the SGW Brits "Freedompartyist" would be terminologically awkward, like calling Fascist Italy and the Empire of Japan nazis. Alternatively, I could have called the (from the US and German POV) fascist UK "mosleyite" or "silvershirtist".

"And here's the intrepid Belgian soldier, fighting in the name of his beloved king, guarding the famous and progressive colony of the Congo Free State ! Unlike the Negro-killing Rebs of Snake Featherston, this soldier sure would never hurt his fellow man of African descent !"

I imagine Belgium and the Netherlands becoming an obvious puppet of Germany after the Great War, with the inter-war period filled with German and American efforts to de-frenchify Belgian cultural, linguistic and ethnic identity. Yes, while TL 191 is by no means much worse than OTL, I imagine some bits of it being quite more dystopic, but not so obvious in the foreground. So much for the starry-eyed idea of a German-led EU-esque Zollverein utopia after WWI. As for the continued existence of the Congo Free State... Um, yeah...

For your consideration.

 

[Undeadmuffin]

For the US troops fighting the Canadian rebels with their ''ally''

 

[cortz#9]

I was thinking about China in the TL-191 timeline and it occurred to me that things might be better for China ITL. Post WWI Germany did a lot business IOTL and even after the Nazis took over Hitler briefly considered making a formal alliance with China but then changed his mind and made an alliance with Japan instead but in TL-191 things could've gone differently.

I don't recall what Turtledove wrote about China in the series but IIRC Japan was doing more successfully in Asia against the Western allies so I assume things went worse for China but that shouldn't have been the case or at least things in China might have been better if victorious Imperial Germany had made an alliance with China or at least gave more military and financial aid to China than it did or could have IOTL.

So using the premise that Junkers, one of the few aircraft companies that continued to build aircraft in OTL post WWI Germany is an even more successful company in TL-191, I drew up three Junkers aircraft that were licensed built in China for the National Chinese Air-Force.
All three aircraft were designed by Ernst Heinkel (ITTL Heinkel never started his own company but instead went to work for Junkers) Junkers most promising designer in the early 1930's.

Junkers Ju-22 fighter.

Junkers Ju-101 multi role aircraft.

Junkers Ju-22 ausf.D fighter.

The Ju-22 series of fighters were not as maneuverable as Japanese aircraft they squared off against but in most cases were faster, better armed and had better armor protection.
The Ju-22 ausf.D was superior or equal to all single seat Japanese fighters it went up against during the war.

 

[Alterwright]

I was thinking about China in the TL-191 timeline and it occurred to me that things might be better for China ITL. Post WWI Germany did a lot business IOTL and even after the Nazis took over Hitler briefly considered making a formal alliance with China but then changed his mind and made an alliance with Japan instead but in TL-191 things could've gone differently.

I don't recall what Turtledove wrote about China in the series but IIRC Japan was doing more successfully in Asia against the Western allies so I assume things went worse for China but that shouldn't have been the case or at least things in China might have been better if victorious Imperial Germany had made an alliance with China or at least gave more military and financial aid to China than it did or could have IOTL.

So using the premise that Junkers, one of the few aircraft companies that continued to build aircraft in OTL post WWI Germany is an even more successful company in TL-191, I drew up three Junkers aircraft that were licensed built in China for the National Chinese Air-Force.
All three aircraft were designed by Ernst Heinkel (ITTL Heinkel never started his own company but instead went to work for Junkers) Junkers most promising designer in the early 1930's.

This is an interesting point. There isn't much reference to China in TL-191 unfortunately, other than vague bits of information here and there to get a basic idea. The impression is that Japan is "more aggressive" in China than it was in our timeline. I suspect that means the Japanese are more open about their intentions to carve out China for themselves while it likely still fractured.

However, I see an interesting theater here, especially in the inter-war period. Foreign support for China might still be a thing and Imperial Germany would still have interest in the area. Depending on what they want in China, the Germans could very be supporting the Chinese Government there arms and supplies and training.

Airplanes like this would be a good aid, though I still imagine that the planes would be shipped to China in small numbers still. Like, enough to make a dent, but probably not enough to extremely infuriate the Japanese. I'm thinking of this in an inter-war context after all, around the 1930s. Then again, maybe the German's don't care about ticking off the Japanese by doing this. Either way, these look like they would give the Chinese a fighting chance.

 

[Seandineen]

Could the Qing dynasty survive?

 

[Alterwright]

Could the Qing dynasty survive?

It would be interesting to see how long it could survive, given the myriad of severe problems it had. Unfortunately, for me, I don't see the Qing lasting even before the start of the Great War. The Qing Dynasty's decline had been slowly coming for decades despite reform after reform. There was just no way it could keep itself together in my opinion, not with the system it had in place.

Now, I know that seems kind of an odd thing to say in TL-191's case, especially given that the Russian Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, and Ottoman Empire still exist by the time of the Second Great War, but even Turtledove seems to imply that China does fall apart as it historically did in our timeline.

If there is an argument to made for its survival, you can certainly bring it up.

 

[Seandineen]

Perhaps if the people around the young emperor listened to Reginald Fleming Johnston!

 

[Alterwright]

Perhaps if the people around the young emperor listened to Reginald Fleming Johnston!

Mr. Johnston was only appointed as Puyi's tutor in 1919, well after the Qing formally lost power 1911. Both he and Puyi would not have been in a strong position to push for the restoration of the Qing, since many Chinese even didn't want it restored.

 

[Seandineen]

You are right I was just thinking in this world more sympathetic to monarchy His imperial majesty might have a fighting chance.

 

[Alterwright]

You are right I was just thinking in this world more sympathetic to monarchy His imperial majesty might have a fighting chance.

Puyi would likely still have a chance as the puppet ruler of Manchukuo even in this timeline, so there is still that. Its covers Manchuria in Northeast China. In a way, it was kinda-sorta the Qing Dynasty reinstated, but vastly different and essentially propped up by the Japanese.

 

[Historyman 14]

Could the Qing dynasty survive?

It would be interesting to see how long it could survive, given the myriad of severe problems it had. Unfortunately, for me, I don't see the Qing lasting even before the start of the Great War. The Qing Dynasty's decline had been slowly coming for decades despite reform after reform. There was just no way it could keep itself together in my opinion, not with the system it had in place.

Now, I know that seems kind of an odd thing to say in TL-191's case, especially given that the Russian Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, and Ottoman Empire still exist by the time of the Second Great War, but even Turtledove seems to imply that China does fall apart as it historically did in our timeline.

If there is an argument to made for its survival, you can certainly bring it up.

You are right I was just thinking in this world more sympathetic to monarchy His imperial majesty might have a fighting chance.

Puyi would likely still have a chance as the puppet ruler of Manchukuo even in this timeline, so there is still that. Its covers Manchuria in Northeast China. In a way, it was kinda-sorta the Qing Dynasty reinstated, but vastly different and essentially propped up by the Japanese.

Yeah, I also very much doubt the Qing could survive for any longer than OTL.

The Qing was a ethnically Manchu based dynasty, always viewed as a foreign blight by the more numerous Han Chinese population. And they where dicks, treating the Han like crap. A lot of people who joined the Taiping Rebellion where not Christians, or cared for Christianity, or for Hong Xiuquan madness. They all wanted 3 things: The Qing to be gone, land to farm, and rice to eat. The Jiang Shi? That's how China view the Qing.


You alredy have the Opium Wars and the end of the Taiping Rebellion itself before and just when the POD takes place. You still have government corruption, incompetence and traditionalist conservatives of inward-looking prevailed in the ruling elites. The Qing wasn't all that backward. The biggest issue was who was to lead the developing (AKA: Relying on all things foreign.) and what they would get out of it. Mistrust of foreign money and foreign powers influence over the railways was a major reason for the Boxer Rebellion.

We even talked about TL-191 Boxer Rebellion, so...


Alterwright is right Puyi best chance is to be the puppet ruler of Manchukuo. Don't kill Zhang Zuolin. He himself wanted to restore the Qing monarchy and he spent a great deal of time building up Manchuria, and was fairly successful in his actions. Japan can avoid the backlash of the OTL invasion of Manchuria while Japan and Pro-Japanese Warlords like Zhang Zuolin can crushed the Nationalists while Chiang is too busy killing all the Communists, Socialists, and Capitalists he could find, and what's left of them join the Communists forces. Germany could have given everything to Chiang, but he was just too much a peanut head to use it right.

Also: Welcome back Alterwright!

 

[Kol]

https://www.amazon.com/War-Nationalism-China-1925-1945-Routledge/dp/0415514991
https://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Ally-Chinas-World-1937-1945/dp/061889425X
https://www.amazon.com/Geopolitics-Interwar-Manchuria-Studies-History/dp/9004339124
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=9780521523325&i=stripbooks&linkCode=qs


Also I personally don't think Nationalist would be in charge of this timeline it would be more likely the federalist will be in charge considering that without the Soviet Union the KMT is there any support from any remotely revolutionary State out there

 

[Alterwright]

Also I personally don't think Nationalist would be in charge of this timeline it would be more likely the federalist will be in charge considering that without the Soviet Union the KMT is there any support from any remotely revolutionary State out there

What's the difference between the Nationalists and "federalists" then? What foreign nations would support what Chinese faction in TL-191?

 

[Kol]

What's the difference between the Nationalists and "federalists" then? What foreign nations would support what Chinese faction in TL-191?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Jiongming
https://web.archive.org/web/2007031...ng.com/English/material/paper/chen_paper4.htm

 

[Alterwright]

Yeah, I also very much doubt the Qing could survive for any longer than OTL.

The Qing was a ethnically Manchu based dynasty, always viewed as a foreign blight by the more numerous Han Chinese population. And they where dicks, treating the Han like crap. A lot of people who joined the Taiping Rebellion where not Christians, or cared for Christianity, or for Hong Xiuquan madness. They all wanted 3 things: The Qing to be gone, land to farm, and rice to eat. The Jiang Shi? That's how China view the Qing.


You alredy have the Opium Wars and the end of the Taiping Rebellion itself before and just when the POD takes place. You still have government corruption, incompetence and traditionalist conservatives of inward-looking prevailed in the ruling elites. The Qing wasn't all that backward. The biggest issue was who was to lead the developing (AKA: Relying on all things foreign.) and what they would get out of it. Mistrust of foreign money and foreign powers influence over the railways was a major reason for the Boxer Rebellion.

We even talked about TL-191 Boxer Rebellion, so...


Alterwright is right Puyi best chance is to be the puppet ruler of Manchukuo. Don't kill Zhang Zuolin. He himself wanted to restore the Qing monarchy and he spent a great deal of time building up Manchuria, and was fairly successful in his actions. Japan can avoid the backlash of the OTL invasion of Manchuria while Japan and Pro-Japanese Warlords like Zhang Zuolin can crushed the Nationalists while Chiang is too busy killing all the Communists, Socialists, and Capitalists he could find, and what's left of them join the Communists forces. Germany could have given everything to Chiang, but he was just too much a peanut head to use it right.

Also: Welcome back Alterwright!

I didn't realize I was gone for so long. Thank you! I miss doing these kinds of things.

All this is, of course, part of a cycle of sorts. The fall of the Qing was inevitable. However, in their collapse, what ever faction manages to rise up will potentially be the new ruling authority in China. It is highly likely that we would still get a "Warlords Era" in China, with factions all vying for some kind of control. The Japanese are liable to take advantage of the chaos to push their agenda, while various cliques fight one another for dominance, buying arms and uniforms and all sorts of other things from foreign suppliers.

You also still have Qing Army surplus lying around with various groups still carrying around weapons and uniforms from the previous regime.

By the time of the fall of the Qing in 1911, you actually had an army trying all it could to modernize and catch up, with uniforms and equipment almost matching that of European armies. Yet some areas were still lacking, especially where men were stationed in isolated outposts or small local garrisons. By the time of the Warlords Era, each warlord had a cadre of men armed to some degree with modern weapons and uniforms. In fact some warlord armies shared the same uniform styles, with the only difference between them being insignia.

 

[Historyman 14]

I didn't realize I was gone for so long. Thank you! I miss doing these kinds of things.

All this is, of course, part of a cycle of sorts. The fall of the Qing was inevitable. However, in their collapse, what ever faction manages to rise up will potentially be the new ruling authority in China. It is highly likely that we would still get a "Warlords Era" in China, with factions all vying for some kind of control. The Japanese are liable to take advantage of the chaos to push their agenda, while various cliques fight one another for dominance, buying arms and uniforms and all sorts of other things from foreign suppliers.

You also still have Qing Army surplus lying around with various groups still carrying around weapons and uniforms from the previous regime.

View attachment 496081

By the time of the fall of the Qing in 1911, you actually had an army trying all it could to modernize and catch up, with uniforms and equipment almost matching that of European armies. Yet some areas were still lacking, especially where men were stationed in isolated outposts or small local garrisons. By the time of the Warlords Era, each warlord had a cadre of men armed to some degree with modern weapons and uniforms. In fact some warlord armies shared the same uniform styles, with the only difference between them being insignia.

It reminds me of the early American Civil War and ten times more with the Russian Civil War over the matter of uniforms and and insignias being what you can tell one from another for sometime.

Between surviving German and Russian Empires, a even greater Japan, and the Socialist/Left-Wing friendly USA, TL-191 Warlord Era would be fascinating.

Let alone here, the mix match and mess of each group and faction weapons and equipment in the first part of the Warlord Era and Post-Qing.

 

[Kol]

@Alterwright
Most warlords have the same uniform The main difference will be the color of it between different factions
Fangtian

Zhili