Revisiting Kaiserreich's plausibility after rework.

[Pauh the federalist]

The 3 biggest issues that the alternate history community has with Kaiserreich in terms of plausibility are,

• Italy

• American civil war

• China

With the mod going through a rework of these 3 I wanted to get the community opinion the plausibility of current and upcoming changes to these 3 regions. (for those unaware of the current and upcoming changes I am attaching a link to there progress reports https://kaiserreich.fandom.com/wiki/Progress_Reports)

 

[Neoteros]

Kaiserreich's whole point is to be a fun scenario, kind of like the Divergences mod for Victoria II, so plausibility's not exactly a requirement. However, I like the changes to Italy because, while not being 100% plausible, they are at least believable - with the socialists controlling their actual historical heartland, and so on.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Whilst Italy has certainly improved, I still think it should explode as a result of a civil war, not effectively dismantled by Austria as part of the peace deal.
Border changes, sure, but it shouldn't go that far.
I could see Italy exploding as a result of a civil war (the player being able to pick which faction to play as), with an Austrian puppet in the northeast, socialist Italy in the centre and northwest, and a monarchist south, Sicily and Sardinia.
The Two Sicilies and Papal State should form as a result of event chains stemming from the civil war, with a chance for the Savoyards to keep hold of them if they play their cards right.
An Italian Federation should be another optional route, either to end the civil war, or as a formable nation.

I think the current direction China is being reworked in is fine.

As for the American Civil War, that isn't likely to be plausible, but its still fine for the game. I'm a little surprised there weren't a whole bunch of other factions that pop up as well, some of which get absorbed into larger groups.

 

[GDIS Pathe]

American Civil War is still dumb.

Second Jutland is still absolute bullshit and the follow on 2nd Dreadnought race makes little sense

France is absolutely wanked in order to give Germany a fight

British revolution in 1925 long after the end of the war is very suspect

Australasia’s formation doesn’t make much sense

Current South Africa does not make sense

There is no way Kerensky holds onto power for anywhere close to twenty years

India’s current setup also seems rather suspect

That’s everything I can think of off the top of my head

 

[Worffan101]

Whilst Italy has certainly improved, I still think it should explode as a result of a civil war, not effectively dismantled by Austria as part of the peace deal.

Actually that's the new backstory, Austria TRIES to divide and conquer and it blows up in their faces.

I'm not super happy with the Eastern Europe rework so far but we'll see how it plays.

 

[herkles]

the US civil war is there for fun not because it is realistic. It isn't. what I and the other devs have done is try to make somewhat plausible or at least the verisimilitude of a plausible scenario even though it is rather unrealistic.

 

[Worffan101]

the US civil war is there for fun not because it is realistic. It isn't. what I and the other devs have done is try to make somewhat plausible or at least the verisimilitude of a plausible scenario even though it is rather unrealistic.

tbf a lot of stuff that happened in the interwar period OTL was super unrealistic. Hitler, for example, only got power because of a series of bad decisions by von Papen and then Hindenburg, the latter of whom was going senile.

Given that, I can absolutely see the 2ACW happening due to a metastasizing crisis that nobody bothers to fix until it's too late.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

tbf a lot of stuff that happened in the interwar period OTL was super unrealistic. Hitler, for example, only got power because of a series of bad decisions by von Papen and then Hindenburg, the latter of whom was going senile.

Given that, I can absolutely see the 2ACW happening due to a metastasizing crisis that nobody bothers to fix until it's too late.

Same TBH. Heck, given the wrong sequence of events, I could see ACWII happening with OTL’s history...

 

[Analytical Engine]

Actually that's the new backstory, Austria TRIES to divide and conquer and it blows up in their faces.

I still don't know why A-H would go that far.

Shaving off some border territory - fine.
Forcing Italy to lose its colonies - again, fine.
Trying to dismantle Italy just to be a massive dick - why?

Personally, I would have had Italy be subject to limits to its military and have to pay hefty reparations to A-H instead. This prompts anti-government, anti-monarchy and anti-Savoyard forces to emerge, eventually triggering a civil war, resulting in Italy breaking up.

I could see a southern Italian faction forming, based out of Naples, which has an event leading to the following choices:

• side with the Savoyards - south Italy becomes part of the rump Kingdom of Italy; the player becomes the Kingdom of Italy
• establish an independent kingdom - the Two Sicilies are re-established, under a Bourbon king
• establish an independent republic - a conservative/*fascist republic/military junta, depending on which branch of the focus tree the player/AI choses

If Sicily is not part of this independent southern Italy, either because it is independent or because it decided to side with the Savoyards, there would be focuses to retake it.

 

[moyai]

The weird double standard of 'fun' and 'realism' (i.e Sternberg's G-K II path being cut, the 20-Year Regency being cut, etc.) is baffling, it just shows how the KR team is divided on how it should carry on forward, even if the Kaiserdevs (head developers) know what they're done.

The Italian Federation is a great meme, it justifies how the Dual Monarchy didn't explode into itself because it got Italy'd (scammed out of any significant deals at the end of the war), and it establishes a precedent for where you've got the socialists in one part, the more liberal-leaning pro-Kaiser Karl in another, and then the south and Sardinia are just whatever significant factions are left - in this case, the small batch of loyalists still attached to the Savoyards, radical, Italian nationalists and monarchists in the south who took enough of a dive off the deep end to pick up a Bourbon, and the papacy standing as a neutral ground in Rome.

 

[Worffan101]

I still don't know why A-H would go that far.

Shaving off some border territory - fine.
Forcing Italy to lose its colonies - again, fine.
Trying to dismantle Italy just to be a massive dick - why?

Easy answer--the same kind of bad decision making that led France in OTL try to make Germany pay for the war without actually bothering to remove Germany's capability to come back in 20 years and tear them a new one.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Easy answer--the same kind of bad decision making that led France in OTL try to make Germany pay for the war without actually bothering to remove Germany's capability to come back in 20 years and tear them a new one.

That's what the military restrictions were for.

However, no one but the French cared when Hitler eventually ignored the restrictions. Opinion at the time was that Germany had suffered enough humiliation, and that it should be allowed a bit of flexing. Hindsight proved that to be very mistaken, but that's hindsight for you.

 

[Worffan101]

That's what the military restrictions were for.

However, no one but the French cared when Hitler eventually ignored the restrictions. Opinion at the time was that Germany had suffered enough humiliation, and that it should be allowed a bit of flexing. Hindsight proved that to be very mistaken, but that's hindsight for you.

The military restrictions didn't affect Germany's industrial capability, just gave them a cap on how big their standing military could be.

Either way, the end of WW1 in OTL was such a mess with things like Sykes-Picot and the attempt to give Greece the parts of mainland Turkey that at the time had sizable Greek communities, that I find this ATL act of bad decision making 100% plausible.

 

[Deleted member 107125]

India’s current setup also seems rather suspect

Whew, someone said it finally

 

[Analytical Engine]

Either way, the end of WW1 in OTL was such a mess with things like Sykes-Picot and the attempt to give Greece the parts of mainland Turkey that at the time had sizable Greek communities, that I find this ATL act of bad decision making 100% plausible.

I'm not arguing that it would be a bad decision that would ultimately blow up in unexpected ways.

I'm arguing against this specific bad decision.

I agree that A-H would want to screw over Italy. I agree that Italy would be humiliated under such a peace deal, and that it could break up in a civil war. I just don't agree that A-H would chose to forcibly decentralise Italy in such a manner.

This is a monarchy effectively toppling another monarchy, just to be a dick. Not because the monarch that has been toppled is a bad monarch, not because another "more legitimate" monarch should replace them. Just because of general dickishness. Not to mention the repercussions that could have on A-H itself. If the government topples a foreign monarchy, why should people respect their own?

Australasia’s formation doesn’t make much sense

I agree with this. I don't know why New Zealand just suddenly decided to join with Australia.

If it was the result of a long event chain, which required a particular combination of focuses, and good relations between Australia and New Zealand, sure, why not.

Otherwise, I would have Australia and New Zealand be separate.

India’s current setup also seems rather suspect

Communist India seems ok to me.

However, the rump Raj and the Princely Federation especially, I agree with.

Having some kind of rump Raj, ok, fine, I can live with that. But I don't know if the northwest of India would be the most realistic place for it.

Having several independent Rajas, on the other hand, I could see. They could try to play off competing factions to maintain independence, and possibly ally with each other. Hyderabad, Mysore, Kashmir, Travancore and Kalat would be possible.

Adding a nationalist India would be interesting. They would have to deal with competing interests from Princes, Hindus and Muslims, with a long, meandering focus tree, with many choices for the player/AI to make. Will it become dominated by Hindu nationalists? Will the Muslims form their own state? Can a balance be struck? What place will the Rajas have within this? I could also see them seeking aid from the Japanese, or the Germans.

 

[Worffan101]

I'm not arguing that it would be a bad decision that would ultimately blow up in unexpected ways.

I'm arguing against this specific bad decision.

I agree that A-H would want to screw over Italy. I agree that Italy would be humiliated under such a peace deal, and that it could break up in a civil war. I just don't agree that A-H would chose to forcibly decentralise Italy in such a manner.

This is a monarchy effectively toppling another monarchy, just to be a dick. Not because the monarch that has been toppled is a bad monarch, not because another "more legitimate" monarch should replace them. Just because of general dickishness. Not to mention the repercussions that could have on A-H itself. If the government topples a foreign monarchy, why should people respect their own?

I mean, given Sykes-Picot and how multinational imperial power regularly backed nationalists even though that would discredit them, I still find it within the realm of plausibility. But I admit that this is more personal taste and a desire to avoid even more retcons of Italian lore.

As for India, btw, everything but the Bharatiya Commune needs a major rework.

 

[Ynnead]

The weird double standard of 'fun' and 'realism' (i.e Sternberg's G-K II path being cut, the 20-Year Regency being cut, etc.) is baffling, it just shows how the KR team is divided on how it should carry on forward, even if the Kaiserdevs (head developers) know what they're done.

Has anyone played Poland or Mongolia as they currently stand. They're textbook Memes over an actual interesting game to play. Mongolia is incredibly dull to play and Poland's barely any better. The overhauls to both of them are needed.

 

[herkles]

I will also say that the new Mongolia is rather fun to play. far much more than old mongolia IMO.

 

[liqmadiqkhan]

Eh, I think the main problem with Kaiserreich is the idea that France and Britain would've swung left in a CP victory scenario. I just don't see how the Germans would have the leverage at the negotiating table to get such punitive measures out of mainly Britain to facilitate such a crazy realignment of British politics. Relative to the rest of the world, British politics have endured and remained consistent for many centuries regardless.

There are good/plausible aspects to the mod - Germany struggling to keep it's sattelites in check, Russia in disarray and chaos, but it's overall very far-fetched.

 

[Ynnead]

Honestly Plausiblity with KR is and always will be a bit of a rabbit hole. A plausible Kaiserreich would look nothing like KR.