DBWI:Piast Poland

[krieger]

If we believe Długosz's chronicle, at the beginning of Polish statehood a rebel of supposed peasant ancestry named Piast tried to topple Popiel II, one of the early Polish dukes who managed to establish his rule over Polands. He is ancestor of famed House of Popiel, which ruled Poland in direct line from IXth to XVIIth century and produced a significant number of kings and emperors. Even after the demise of it's main branch, it's cadet branches like Sobieski family continued to rule Poland until emperor James III was deposed by republicans in 1916. How world and Poland would be affected by absence of Popielids and their descendants and victory of Piast? Could we see even peasants gaining political influence that early? @Jan Olbracht

 

[kasumigenx]

If we believe Długosz's chronicle, at the beginning of Polish statehood a rebel of supposed peasant ancestry named Piast tried to topple Popiel II, one of the early Polish dukes who managed to establish his rule over Polands. He is ancestor of famed House of Popiel, which ruled Poland in direct line from IXth to XVIIth century and produced a significant number of kings and emperors. Even after the demise of it's main branch, it's cadet branches like Sobieski family continued to rule Poland until emperor James III was deposed by republicans in 1916. How world and Poland would be affected by absence of Popielids and their descendants and victory of Piast? Could we see even peasants gaining political influence that early? @Jan Olbracht

Poland might not even have expanded to Laba or Elbe in German, under the Popielid Kings both the Elbe(in Polabia) and Oder rivers(in Silesia) became vital to Poland

 

[krieger]

Poland might not event have expanded to Laba or Elbe in German, under the Popielid Kings both the Elbe(in Polabia) and Oder rivers(in Silesia) became vital to Poland

Or it could be conquered by Germans because of Piast trying to liberate all serfs and slaves from neighbouring countries (Jan Długosz even compared him to Spartacus)

 

[kasumigenx]

Or it could be conquered by Germans because of Piast trying to liberate all serfs and slaves from neighbouring countries (Jan Długosz even compared him to Spartacus)

And also because the Piasts might fragment Poland into small duchies which the germans would grab little by little?

 

[krieger]

And also because the Piasts might fragment Poland into small duchies which the germans would grab little by little?

Popielids fragmented it too, it doesn't matter (although idea of a King was always strong). Social programme of Piast could be more dangerous.

 

[kasumigenx]

Popielids fragmented it too, it doesn't matter (although idea of a King was always strong). Social programme of Piast could be more dangerous.

And the Piasts might invite Germans to settle in Poland as well..

 

[krieger]

And the Piasts might invite Germans to settle in Poland as well..

Popielids invited them too, but French and Norse settlement was also significant.

 

[Historymaster]

Well, Piast extinguished very soon while Sobiesky-Czartorisky-Popiel still exist, and in 1945 after the disastrous defeat of the Republic, James IV was restored and his grandson Henry V still rules; Who would have reigned after the Piast got extinguished in the XIV century?

 

[kasumigenx]

Well, Piast extinguished very soon while Sobiesky-Czartorisky-Popiel still exist, and in 1945 after the disastrous defeat of the Republic, James IV was restored and his grandson Henry V still rules; Who would have reigned after the Piast got extinguished in the XIV century?

The senior heirs of the House of Piast are the Welfs of Brunswick.

 

[krieger]

Well, Piast extinguished very soon while Sobiesky-Czartorisky-Popiel still exist, and in 1945 after the disastrous defeat of the Republic, James IV was restored and his grandson Henry V still rules; Who would have reigned after the Piast got extinguished in the XIV century?

Assuming that Piasts managed to last that long, anyone could take power. I wouldn't be surprised if republic was introduced much earlier due to peasant origins of Piasts.

 

[Historymaster]

Assuming that Piasts managed to last that long, anyone could take power. I wouldn't be surprised if republic was introduced much earlier due to peasant origins of Piasts.

And would it be a crowned republuc like HRE and France or an Aristocratic One like Barcellona and Marseille?

 

[krieger]

And would it be a crowned republuc like HRE and France or an Aristocratic One like Barcellona and Marseille?

I'd say that it'd be aristocratic republic with strong lower class influence like ancient Athenes.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Długosz had tendency to "improve" history of Poland with fictional events and characters to make it more "interesting" (I'm not even talking about story of semi-legendary people from deep past, like duke Popiel VI, who allegedly turned into vampire, Długosz frequently colorized even events that predated his birth just few decades-incredible adventures of Elżbieta of Pilcza, fith wife of king Leszek IX, were likely also invented by Długosz and Queen Elżbieta died five years after Długosz' birth) so how we could know that story about Piast is true? BTW Czechs had similar story about peasant origin of their first dynasty-House of Slavnik, and situation of Czech peasants was not much different from situation Polish ones until Czech Succession War aftefr death of king Vojtech VIII in 1618.

 

[krieger]

Długosz had tendency to "improve" history of Poland with fictional events and characters to make it more "interesting" (I'm not even talking about story of semi-legendary people from deep past, like duke Popiel VI, who allegedly turned into vampire, Długosz frequently colorized even events that predated his birth just few decades-incredible adventures of Elżbieta of Pilcza, fith wife of king Leszek IX, were likely also invented by Długosz and Queen Elżbieta died five years after Długosz' birth) so how we could know that story about Piast is true? BTW Czechs had similar story about peasant origin of their first dynasty-House of Slavnik, and situation of Czech peasants was not much different from situation Polish ones until Czech Succession War aftefr death of king Vojtech VIII in 1618.

We don't know, that's why I clearly stated: "If we believe Długosz's chronicle". Of course, situation of peasants in Bohemia was not that different, but power of rulers of Bohemia was always much weaker than their Polish counterparts. Maybe with hypothethical Piast succeeding we could see similar situation in Poland? And when we are talking about Elżbieta of Pilcza we shouldn't forget that Długosz was protege of Zbigniew Oleśnicki. Olesnicki hated Elżbieta of Pilcza and was the force behind bypassing Elzbietas daughters (only surviving issue of Leszek) in favor of his younger brother, Ladislaus VIII. It is not surprise that Olesnicki demonized Elzbieta and Długosz believed his words to be true.

 

[Historymaster]

True enought. But he inspired a lot of good writers like Bram Stoker.

 

[krieger]

True enought. But he inspired a lot of good writers like Bram Stoker.

Well, he was one of inspirations, but yes, without Długosz and his stories novels would be far less intriguing.

 

[fluttersky]

Poland might not even have expanded to Laba or Elbe in German, under the Popielid Kings both the Elbe(in Polabia) and Oder rivers(in Silesia) became vital to Poland

That's an interesting point- in a world with a weaker Poland, the German Ostseidlung (eastward expansion) might have happened in a different direction and the areas east of the Elbe might have become German- rather than the Germans mostly going southeast into the Carpathian Basin as in our world.

And Jutland may never have become Polish, or even Slavic at all- if Poland never establishes the Laba as its western border, then they certainly won't be able to exploit the power vacuum in Jutland. Jutland would probably become part of one of the German countries, or Denmark.

A Poland without Jutland would be much less likely to get involved in overseas colonization, too...

 

[kasumigenx]

That's an interesting point- in a world with a weaker Poland, the German Ostseidlung (eastward expansion) might have happened in a different direction and the areas east of the Elbe might have become German- rather than the Germans mostly going southeast into the Carpathian Basin as in our world.

And Jutland may never have become Polish, or even Slavic at all- if Poland never establishes the Laba as its western border, then they certainly won't be able to exploit the power vacuum in Jutland. Jutland would probably become part of one of the German countries, or Denmark.

A Poland without Jutland would be much less likely to get involved in overseas colonization, too...

Tayšas is the most profitable polish colony i remember.

 

[krieger]

That's an interesting point- in a world with a weaker Poland, the German Ostseidlung (eastward expansion) might have happened in a different direction and the areas east of the Elbe might have become German- rather than the Germans mostly going southeast into the Carpathian Basin as in our world.

And Jutland may never have become Polish, or even Slavic at all- if Poland never establishes the Laba as its western border, then they certainly won't be able to exploit the power vacuum in Jutland. Jutland would probably become part of one of the German countries, or Denmark.

A Poland without Jutland would be much less likely to get involved in overseas colonization, too...

I think Jutland would fall to Sweden without Polish influence. Swedes tried to conquer that land from Poles, if Poles aren't involved, than they can succeed.

 

[The Professor]

What's with all the mixed spelling? Can we use the Krakovian Orthography or not at all.
So:
Elžbieta or Elzzbieta
Długoš or Dlhugosz
Pliča or Plicza etc
If you only know the Anglicised alphabet just recall that a +h is a dash (´) and a +z a dip (ˇ). And you probably already know a tittle (˜) is a nasal.

[OOC: well of course the orthography will be different!]