inb4 'The Great Crime' just turns out to be when a Genoese cook didn't allow substitutions on the pasta.
IT'S THE FIRST WAR OF LATIN MICRO-AGGRESSION!
Based and halalpilled
inb4 'The Great Crime' just turns out to be when a Genoese cook didn't allow substitutions on the pasta.
IT'S THE FIRST WAR OF LATIN MICRO-AGGRESSION!
Essentially Rome isn’t going to be looking to expand influence in this next Ottoman war. Aside from territories Rome/Georgia will be annexing they are looking to permanently cripple the Ottomans and the easiest way to do that given the short term advantages Rome will enjoy; finances, logistics, battle hardened army, new reforms bearing fruit; is to quite literally make it a desert and call it peace.
TLDR: Great Crimes does not lead to client states. Tabriz, Jerusalem, Damascus, Mosul are going to be depopulated and restocked with loyal populations. Baghdad, Basra at a minimum are going to be destroyed
Don't forget Iskandar the Younger still in Rhoman custody.
Hopefully this does not work out as well as Maurice with Khusro II did.
Awwww. We can't have anything nice like a Romano-Persian Alliance?
Like, as much as I'm typically on team "Break Persia" whilst they're hostile, I'd be entirely down to have a Maurice-Khosrau scenario. Genuine peace between the Romans and Ottomans could be great for both parties. It doesn't need to be friendship, and no rivalry between them, but more akin to respected opponents holding the hill.
It'd be a foreign policy triumph to achieve a peace between the Ottoman Caliph, the Roman Emperor, and the Kings of Georgia. Unlikely in the imminent term, but post-atrocities? Enough people may be cowed enough to draw a line in the sands
I really don’t see Rome and the Ottomans marrying into each other’s dynasties though. It’s one thing for Trebizond to do it and another entirely for the premiere Orthodox power to do it. Love it or hate it Rome is always going to be defined by their religion and having a member of the royal family willingly become Muslim would be a step to far IMHO. Given the growth of Orthodoxy and the just finished war with a Catholic claimant it wouldn’t surprise me if Rome more or less stops any marriages outside of Orthodox families for centuries.
I'm actually rooting for the Triunes, if only because Ireland's the third monarchy in that particular polity. I've never seen a timeline where Ireland is anything but England's punching bag and I'm eager to see this one go well for them.
Only officially. I'm sure that Englishmen and Frenchmen like to mock their Irish counterparts in private as being a bunch of backward pig farmers or something.Its interesting to me that the Irish are seen as equal, I would've thought that they would be the lesser of the trio of kingdoms, France has the largest population and most fertile lands, England was the one who created it and where most of there kings came from, Ireland seems to pale in comparison.
It is a good thing that while Rhomania can't field a fleet the same way the Triunes can, though no one else really can either, while in the Age of Sail they don't really have too. The Mediterranean makes the usage of the smaller third rates a better proposition in the first place and you will likely see Rhomania look more into ways of making their ships hit harder for their size to make up for the lack of first rates. With local manufacture of ships in Island Asia Rhomania in the East can probably match, and possibly out match, whatever the Triunes or other western powers can send over, which usually can't be the best ships since those need to stay close to home.
OTL Spanish Population of part of the Philippines, lowland Luzon and lowland Visayas, according to Relacion de las encomiendas, was 166,903. Spanish multiplied this by 4(Family of 4) to get 667,612. The count does not include highland Luzon, highland Visayas, whole of Mindanao, or people in the lowland Luzon/Visayas refusing to pay tribute to Spain.
The OTL Spanish migrants to the Philippines from 1570s to 1590s were around 14,000 with 13,000 dead by 1590s. Deaths blamed on climate/weather. Istanbul to Manila is around 7.1k nautical miles via Suez/13.5k nautical miles Via cape of Good hope. Acapulco to Manila is around 7.7k nautical miles. Alexandria to Manila via Suez is around 6.5k nautical Miles. So it is possible to have 1,000 Romans alive in 1590s in TTL Pyrgos on top of that 166,903.
The OTL Spanish did have shipyards built in Philippines, hired locals. Wood can be gathered from there or even ships(Manila Galleons) built from that area as early as 1589, report to Philip 2 about Philippine shipyards.
I stated this since the Romans can probably gather wood from the East not only from OTL Philippines but from the rest of Roman Asia. Or even build the ships from there and be sent to Constantinople since Manila galleons were going around Acapulco and Manila. Romans in TTL were more efficient at least vs OTL Spanish same time period. Plus, there is no racial discrimination in the Roman system vs the OTL Spanish Caste system that affects productivity and willingness to die/serve for the state.
How developed is taprobane compared to the imperial heartlands? Is it comparable to syrian tagma? Also is it the most developed part of the roman and by extension colonial far east?
OTL France is probably a reasonable role model for what one should expect the imperial navy to look like, as it was roughly comparable in size with a similar need to maintain large land armies. By the end of the 18th century the French were going for a significant number of 80s along with the 74s, technically these were second rates but in reality were between a second and third rate and not that larger than a 74 in overall size, Sane''s standardised 80 of the Tonnant/Bucentaure class with 29 completed ships was 2,000 tons burden to the 1,900 tons of his Temeraire class of which 107 were built. By comparison his 118 gun first rates of the Ocean class were 2,750 tons burden, fully 50% more than a 74. Then of course the empire can be also building ships in India and the Philippines, the British were building anything up the the 84gun HMS Asia in Bombay in addition to a large number of frigates, to the extend that there was political backlash at home over yards in Britain being antagonised, I suppose there is less of that here with the arsenals being state run...
Rhomania on their wood situation:
Is Venice still considered a major shipbuilding center?
How is the chain of command re: Rhomania's hulls? Are they organized into various independent fleets capable of independent operations under the strategic purview of the Megas Doux?
Are other friendly nations like Georgia and Vlachia able to place orders for warships at the arsenal if they so desired?
Speaking of which, how fares the naval power hierarchy of the Eastern powers like the Zeng, Ottomans and Vijaynagar?
Does Rhomania have the strongest riverine naval force in Europe?
P.s. are the combined corsair forces of the Marinid Empire sufficient to stop a concerted campaign by either Spain or Rhomania?
P.p.s. are the knights hospitaller less navally oriented ITL since they are able to stick to their original purpose more?
You know, if classical liberalism were to ever emerge ITTL, in whatever form it takes, I wonder how they're gonna explain Rhomania, I mean it seems to be a refutation of all the arguments they have, its a functioning and prosperous absolute monarchy who loathes free trade and the government has significant influence on the economy yet it has stood as one of the premier powers of the world for more than a millenia.
Oh, and I wonder if there's gonna be any western predictions of Rhomania falling, citing that its protectionist and absolutist attitude is gonna kill it, there would be a lot yet it still hasn't happened
I can imagine some political cartoon in the future comparing the better integrated and represented people of overseas despotates to the over abused/exploited peoples in latin colonies with no representation of their interests. Like comparing an actual member of the family who is raised properly and getting more involved in the family business as they get older, to some poor sod that is constantly abused, disowned, is only allowed to labour unpaid in the family business and frequently having their stuff seized by their abusive family.
At the danger of sounding soppy (since excessively paternalistic policies are pretty patronising), I could imagine the "children" of the roman empire (mainly off shore asian and maybe even some african despotates) becoming exasperated as the policy of defending colonies seems to be enduring a serious confrontation in Europe, the result being they have to watch the head of the household get the life kicked out of them now and again to ensure their safety. I could imagine the narrative for a more federated empire, akin to the more mature and concerned children taking up more responsibilities in the family business so that the head of the household can take some days off, not work themselves to death and bask in the fruit of well raised and responsible children looking out for the family business as trusted seconds in command.
It's likely that the Despotates will be providing a framework in the far future for independent and closely allied states to the Romans similar to the current positions of Wallachia and Georgia. Maybe even a little more closer than them due to shared history, similar to the present relationship between the UK and its now independent Dominions and colonies who have some titular additional friendships such as referring to diplomatic missions between them as 'High Commissions' rather than as Embassies.
I'm not 100% sold on this part actually. The Georgians didn't join the campaign against the Ottomans in 1622 because they had spent a ton of time/money fortifying the new border and decided the Trans-Arras lands weren't worth the time and blood to reconquer. They still may have that mentality.
Now, a lot of that might have been because Iskander the Great was on the Ottoman throne and the Georgians didn't really want to tangle with him after he'd so thoroughly beaten then at Astara to win those lands in the first place. With a less competent Shah on the throne the Georgians may decide now is the time to get those lands back.
I made a (very rough) world map to help me keep track of what’s going on in the world as the story continues. Is there anything major that I’m missing or passed over?
How do the Romans feel about their Latin Roman past? They were after all descended from the Italian peninsula, surely there are some neo-Justinianites pushing for Renovati Imperii. I feel like Latin would be used as the administration language in Rhomania's Western European provinces. Plus North Africa still had Afro-Romance speaking communities even during the 8th Crusade during the late 13th Century.
In regards to 18th century Liberalism and and Nationalism, I agree with the points the others made that Rhomania stands as a stark refutation of it. Since Rhomania is ascendant here and its still intact with Constantinople rebuilt, there is little reason for many Roman scholars to flee Westwards. They only fled during the 14th and 15th centuries during the Pailoilogian Renaissance after the Byzantine State was collapsing from Civil Wars, Ottoman invasions, and war with the Bulgarians and Serbs. Plus I don't see people like Gibbon spreading the notion that Eastern Romans were nothing but Schismatic Greeks. Rome is one of the oldest continuous civilizations lasting from 753 BCE to the 17 Century in the current timeline. That's well over 2,000 years of history right there. Plus the idea of Republics are likely discredited because of Venice and Genoa just being aristocratic city states gradually reduced to irrelevancy with the rise of larger nation states like France. The Roman Republic is likely remembered by the Romans as a failure. The citizens of the Empire likely view the Empire as superior in a sense since they have lasted for over 1,000 years facing many crises. If some Enlightenment thinker in say France or England criticizes the Basileus as a despotic tyrant, the Romans might see the other nations as barbaric for not having an all powerful Emperor to check the nobles and maintain order in the land. Also what happened to the Roman Senate of Constantinople? Are they still around? If so, what is its function?
How has Byzantine Art changed over the centuries? Has their been a movement towards Neo-Classicalism where the Romans start straying away from the abstract and looking to imitate their ancient forefathers' classical art style. Are marble busts like the Old Roman society used up until the 7th century still in vogue. The last Emperor known to have such a statue was the Emperor Heraclius.
What happened to the Emperors' tombs and Byzantine monuments after the sack of Constantinople? I remember reading that the tombs of Emperors like Basil II and Justinian the Great were looted by the Crusaders with Basil's body being dumped onto the street. Did the Empire rebuild the old tombs and monuments that were destroyed during the Fourth Crusade?
A good question would be if the Great Crime is targeted solely on Mesoptima/Ottomans as a whole or in general Sunni Islam because we could see Rhomani client states/allies participating in different regions. Egypt/Ethiopia with the Idawties, Ethiopia into Yemen, Carthage trying to regain lost lands and reconnect with the Rhomani African possessions and Georgia into Tabriz and Persia.
Well, from what we have gotten so far the great crime is on Sunni Arabs, other Sunni groups like the Kurds, Turks, and Persians aren't really looked down upon. So I think it's mostly the wholesale ethnic cleansing that has been hinted that Rhomania is going to do in the Levant, North Mesopotamian, and North African territories that they end up with later this century. That or B444 is going to throw a real curve ball at us.
We don't know what D3 wants to do with Germany. Hell, he doesn't know what he wants to do with Germany.
BTW, I'm pulling for Elizabeth the Unbowed. Hopefully she can pull a rabbit out of her hat and keep her family somewhat strong in the coming storm. She got a raw deal as Empress and then got swept up in Theodor's ambitions. I hope there's more to her story.
inb4 'The Great Crime' just turns out to be when a Genoese cook didn't allow substitutions on the pasta.
IT'S THE FIRST WAR OF LATIN MICRO-AGGRESSION!
Based and halalpilled
Agreed. Rome is the Defender of the Faith in this world for sure, only without the research penalties
Many are sitting here calling for a War of Wrath against the Ottomans and I'm just waiting for the damn Triunes to get their comeuppance on a large scale for once.
Between the "Glorious Tenth of August," the Battle of Guernsey, the attack on Volos and a dozen more infractions against multiple countries the Triunes are begging for a beatdown. Sadly it doesn't seem like it is likely anytime soon as they're well-poised to become a superpower with the addition of Lotharingia and all the resources there. It has been more or less smooth sailing since France-England was formed in the mid 1400s.
Oh! I don't know if you have this already but there is an interesting article that I found a while back, not sure where (so it may have even been here!) about the feasibility of an Eastern Roman state building a preindustrial Suez Canal.This system stays in place until the construction of a proper Suez Canal, at which point the two spheres merge into a general Roman shipbuilding sphere, with the dimensions of the Suez Canal marking a limit on ship size, much as the Panama Canal did with USN battleships.
This system stays in place until the construction of a proper Suez Canal, at which point the two spheres merge into a general Roman shipbuilding sphere, with the dimensions of the Suez Canal marking a limit on ship size, much as the Panama Canal did with USN battleships.
Regarding Roman-Ottoman rivalry, to answer this post I’m styling my upcoming plan ‘The End of the Roman-Persian Wars, A Story in Three Acts’. The three acts in question are:
1) The Eternal War
2) The War of the Roman Succession & The War of Wrath
3) The Last War (probably going to change that name, given it obviously couldn’t be called that while taking place)
This story could’ve ended after Act 2, but people had to be greedy and stupid, and so Act 3.
Also looking forward to end of the Roman-Persian Wars. I can imagine it could end up being a big comedy gag between the two asking which particular Roman-Persian War this was as they lost count.
1642 (Antioch): In late October, a Roman chef, for unknown reasons, decides to take the new pizza dish and add pineapple as a topping. Despite being triply-excommunicated by the Patriarchs of both Constantinople and Antioch, the damage cannot be undone and still affects the world to this day.
Regarding Roman-Ottoman rivalry, to answer this post I’m styling my upcoming plan ‘The End of the Roman-Persian Wars, A Story in Three Acts’. The three acts in question are:
1) The Eternal War
2) The War of the Roman Succession & The War of Wrath
3) The Last War (probably going to change that name, given it obviously couldn’t be called that while taking place)
This story could’ve ended after Act 2, but people had to be greedy and stupid, and so Act 3.
Oh! I don't know if you have this already but there is an interesting article that I found a while back, not sure where (so it may have even been here!) about the feasibility of an Eastern Roman state building a preindustrial Suez Canal.
The short answer is that it would indeed have been possible given the amount of money the Roman state had to work with, had anyone had both the wherewithal to do it and about a decade without major invasions and plagues to deal with (which is harder to come up with than it sounds. But then again anyone reading this knows exactly how hard it is for the Romans to go one year without getting attacked, let alone ten.)