formion

Banned
Once we get into OTL’s French Revolutionary era, however, my job becomes a lot harder, as Napoleon’s absence means a vastly different world history (to say nothing of the fact that the French Revolution itself could conceivably be avoided or significantly altered by various changes in the TL).

This is extremely difficult to achieve... To actually envision France and Europe without Napoleon is a tall order. What about making the Bonaparts to take refuge in France? After all with so many vendettas and instability in Corsica it is not ASB. A young Napoleon would have to find occupation in the army to support himself and his family. Then you have only slightly different Napoleonic Wars.
 
This is extremely difficult to achieve... To actually envision France and Europe without Napoleon is a tall order. What about making the Bonaparts to take refuge in France? After all with so many vendettas and instability in Corsica it is not ASB. A young Napoleon would have to find occupation in the army to support himself and his family. Then you have only slightly different Napoleonic Wars.

The problem is that Napoleon Bonaparte as we know him is unlikely to be born period.
 
Before we get into another butterflies argument, as I said some 40odd pages ago:
Strictly speaking I would say a proper historical exercise doesn't reroll any dice if the goal is to compare only the differences resulting from the POD with OTL.
Assuming you want to apply the scientific method as best as possible that is. Even in thought experiments you want to minimise variables not expand them.

And a general discussion about butterfly relevance here.
 
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What are you saying exactly? we haven'seen them, but Carp did not explicity butterflied Carlo Maria Buonaparte and Letizia Ramolio out.

Even assuming that Carlo and Letizia get born in this universe, their entire lives will be notably different. Simply put, they wouldn't be the Carlo and Letizia who produced Napoleon in our world. At best, they'd be a couple of genetically similar individuals with different life stories because their home has been dramatically changed, with their lives being changed along with it. There's no guarantee that they'd even meet in this universe, much less wed.
 
Even assuming that Carlo and Letizia get born in this universe, their entire lives will be notably different. Simply put, they wouldn't be the Carlo and Letizia who produced Napoleon in our world. At best, they'd be a couple of genetically similar individuals with different life stories because their home has been dramatically changed, with their lives being changed along with it. There's no guarantee that they'd even meet in this universe, much less wed.
If the author applyes the principle that the only things that changes are the ones directly tied to the PoD (or the ones he wants to change, and can justifiably change), I can't see why Letizia and Carlo Maria can't marry the same. I usually conserve everything I can in my AH unless I have a reason to change; Carlo Maria and Letizia still live in a war-ridden Corsica,struggling for it's freedom; it's enought to keep them close enought to theyr OTL selves . It is all in the hands of the author.
 
If the author applyes the principle that the only things that changes are the ones directly tied to the PoD (or the ones he wants to change, and can justifiably change), I can't see why Letizia and Carlo Maria can't marry the same. I usually conserve everything I can in my AH unless I have a reason to change; Carlo Maria and Letizia still live in a war-ridden Corsica,struggling for it's freedom; it's enought to keep them close enought to theyr OTL selves . It is all in the hands of the author.

I would refer you to the initial post of this TL:

The Rule

There is but one commandment which I must insist upon in this thread: Thou Shalt Not Mention Napoleon.

I've noticed that whenever Corsica is mentioned in the context of the 18th century on this board, discussion inevitably turns to the fate of the World's Most Famous Corsican. It's no surprise—Napoleon is probably the best argument ever made for the Great Man Theory of history. He had such an outsize effect on the history of the world that any timeline which substantially changes or omits him must inevitably become a global affair, which in my case risks exploding a little story about a strange man and his island kingdom into a something much, much larger. Considering that the POD of this timeline occurs not only before Napoleon was born, but before his parents were born, I consider his mere existence ITTL to be impossible without some extreme butterfly gymnastics.
 
I strongly prefer a Corsica which remains independent and does not get involved in mainland politics too
Much. Love the idea of independent Corsica in modern day
 
I would refer you to the initial post of this TL:

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(Also I'm the one who broke the rule, so I think we can let it slide...)

What are you saying exactly? we haven'seen them, but Carp did not explicity butterflied Carlo Maria Buonaparte and Letizia Ramolio out.

No, I have not explicitly butterflied away anyone who was part of Napoleon's family tree. The only one of his ancestors who has been explicitly mentioned is Giuseppe Maria Buonaparte (N's paternal grandfather), who is doing just fine. But it's worth noting that Napoleon's parents were born in 1746 and 1750 and only married in 1764, which is quite a bit past our POD and gives plenty of time for the situation to change. Giovan Geronimo Ramolino, for instance - N's maternal grandfather - was a Genoese officer c. 1743. ITTL he was presumably evacuated to Genoa along with the rest of the garrison when Ajaccio surrendered to the royalists. The Ramolino family was loyal to the Genoese and may not have returned to Corsica at all after the Treaty of Monaco; even if they did, they may no longer be in the same social circle as the Bonaparte clan, which adhered to Theodore after the fall of Ajaccio and presently is one of the leading families of the city (in part because they are related to the Costa family of Theodore's beloved chancellor Sebastiano Costa).

Moreover, one of the generally-followed rules in this TL is that people born from about 1737 forward aren't the same people as OTL. Some may be born around the same time or have the same names, but they aren't the same people. This hasn't had much visible effect in this TL so far because even now we're only 23 years from the POD; most post-POD people are not old enough to be in positions of influence. So even if Guiseppe Buonaparte has a son and Giovan Ramolino has a daughter and they end up marrying ITTL - which, as mentioned, may be quite unlikely - they will not be the same people as our Carlo and Letizia Buonaparte, and certainly their son(s) won't be the same either.
 
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On the whole He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named debate - I’d say it’s all but certain that Letizia was never born TTL, given the altered fate of her parents; naturally, that precludes Carlo Buonaparte marrying her, which means we can safely say at this point Napoleon does not exist. I, at least, think it’s safe to call it at this point.
 
Great update! I am looking forward to both the aftermath of the British victory in Corsica and the effects of it on the broader Seven Years War.

It will be particularly interesting to see the effects of Wolfe's absence from Canada. His attack on Quebec City which provoked the battle of the Plains of Abraham was quite risky and not something most commanders would pursue.
 
Moreover, one of the generally-followed rules in this TL is that people born from about 1737 forward aren't the same people as OTL. Some may be born around the same time or have the same names, but they aren't the same people.

Such as
  • King George III of Great Britain (1738)
  • William Pitt the Younger (1759)
  • Thomas Jefferson (1743)
  • King Louis XVI of France (1754)
  • Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749)
  • Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756)
  • Emperor Joseph II (1741)
  • Tsar Paul I of Russia (1754)
And millions of others.
 
Moreover, one of the generally-followed rules in this TL is that people born from about 1737 forward aren't the same people as OTL. Some may be born around the same time or have the same names, but they aren't the same people.
My rule of thumb, for the purpose of containing butterflies, would be that if an individuals parents were already together at the time of the PoD, or are no less likely together than OTL, then its generally safe to assume they still give birth to an individual with the same genetic makeup, date and time of birth, and name, as OTL; and that an individual with an identical birth to OTL can be a very different person from OTL, but it should in some sense be informed by changes in the world they develop and live in. For example:
  • King George III of Great Britain (1738)
  • Thomas Jefferson (1743)
  • Emperor Joseph II (1741)
These individuals absolutely could be born as OTL, as TTL; some (like future monarchs) may even turn out fairly similar to OTL, though others (like Jefferson) could be far different from OTL, depending on how much history is changed by the time they reach adulthood.

And as you get further from the PoD and into known changes to history (or general butterflies, depending), the likelihood that a person of OTL will be born at all goes down considerably.
 
On the whole He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named debate - I’d say it’s all but certain that Letizia was never born TTL, given the altered fate of her parents; naturally, that precludes Carlo Buonaparte marrying her, which means we can safely say at this point Napoleon does not exist. I, at least, think it’s safe to call it at this point.

I mean, yeah there's probably going to be someone named Napoleone di Buonaparte out there--it was a family name (in fact, Napoleon was one of several Napoleons in his family, including two deceased older siblings AND yes, Joseph). But it won't be TTL's Napoleon.
 
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