British Army adopts an Auto Pistol before 1939

[fastmongrel]

By 1939 the British Army was the only major Army not to have adopted or planned to adopt an Automatic Pistol and still issuing a revolver as the only sidearm. While the British Army didnt issue sidearms on anything like the scale of Continental Armies with infantry NCOs nearly always carrying a rifle and junior Lieutenants usually carrying a rifle when things got noisy there was still a demand for a small number of sidearms in the Infantry and a much larger demand for arming 2nd line troops, Commandos, Tank crew and many other non combat units.

The Webley and Enfield .38 Revolvers whilst serviceable were very uninspiring and not ideal for troops to use in vehicles. The challenge is to have the British Army adopt an Automatic Pistol and have it the standard issue sidearm by September 1939.

My guess is the Colt 1911 would be favourite because of its use in WW1 but what calibre I really like the Spanish Llama and Star 9mm simplified 1911 copies. The Browning Hi Power might be too late I believe the Belgians hadnt managed to completely outfit its forces with the Hi Power by the cut off date and Belgiums avowed neutrality might slow adoption. Maybe in a fit of co-operation with the French the Model 1935 could be adopted the French 7.65 Longue round seems to be a good match for the Smith&Wesson .38 round of the adopted Revolvers.

 

[Catsmate]

The only way I can see this happening is by erasing the adoption of the .38 revolver in 1932 in favour of a semi-automatic pistol, probably chambered for a .38/9mm cartridge of some sort. Possibly a common design with the French specifications?
Assuming the UK spec is similar it would lead to a broadly similar pistol, chambered for the 9mm Parabellum cartridge, or something similar. The pistol might be closer to the original High Power, striker fired with locked breech and a capacious magazine (though the UK might find sixteen rounds excessive). The cartridge might eliminate the desire for a longitudinally unstable bullet.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The Royal Navy continues with the roll out of the 1913 Webley Semi Automatic during WWI including with the Royal Navy division on the Western Front. With extensive combat experience demonstrating the superiority of a semi auto over a revolver the Army is forced to officially adopt one instead of the Webley Mk VI revolver. As well as extensive orders for the 1913 Webley a licence is obtained by Enfield for the 1911 in .455 Auto which after WWI becomes standard issue.

 

[Blue cat]

By 1939 the British Army was the only major Army not to have adopted or planned to adopt an Automatic Pistol and still issuing a revolver as the only sidearm. While the British Army didnt issue sidearms on anything like the scale of Continental Armies with infantry NCOs nearly always carrying a rifle and junior Lieutenants usually carrying a rifle when things got noisy there was still a demand for a small number of sidearms in the Infantry and a much larger demand for arming 2nd line troops, Commandos, Tank crew and many other non combat units.

The Webley and Enfield .38 Revolvers whilst serviceable were very uninspiring and not ideal for troops to use in vehicles. The challenge is to have the British Army adopt an Automatic Pistol and have it the standard issue sidearm by September 1939.

My guess is the Colt 1911 would be favourite because of its use in WW1 but what calibre I really like the Spanish Llama and Star 9mm simplified 1911 copies. The Browning Hi Power might be too late I believe the Belgians hadnt managed to completely outfit its forces with the Hi Power by the cut off date and Belgiums avowed neutrality might slow adoption. Maybe in a fit of co-operation with the French the Model 1935 could be adopted the French 7.65 Longue round seems to be a good match for the Smith&Wesson .38 round of the adopted Revolvers.

If you want to add a reasonable pistol to the poll one that doesnt need a time machine or a supply of Unobtanium make your suggestion and I can add it to the poll.

I'm thinking the chance of equipping the UK and presumably much of the commonwealth might have resulted in the Browning Hi Power being offered if it was available.

As much as I like the 1911 design (from a civilian perspective) and the 9x19mm round I like to think the UK would have insisted on a pistol that was designed from square one to use the required round. So I am doubtful they would have gone with the 1911 unless they also wanted the .45 cartridge.

Edit perhaps if the Lama and Star 1911 copies were thoroughly redesigned to use the 9x19 round they might have been in the running ?

 

[fastmongrel]

Edit perhaps if the Lama and Star 1911 copies were thoroughly redesigned to use the 9x19 round they might have been in the running ?

I am not sure about the Llama version but the Star was produced as the Model A in 9mm Largo (9x23) and the model B in 9mm Parabellum (9x19). The Star Model B 2nd version (produced from 1931) was a successful export gun in Europe it was several iterations away from the original 1911 with a different safety, barrel bushing, backstrap and trigger group.

 

[Blue cat]

I am not sure about the Llama version but the Star was produced as the Model A in 9mm Largo (9x23) and the model B in 9mm Parabellum (9x19). The Star Model B 2nd version (produced from 1931) was a successful export gun in Europe it was several iterations away from the original 1911 with a different safety, barrel bushing, backstrap and trigger group.

Interesting thanks. 9x23 has some interesting possibilities.

 

[fastmongrel]

The Royal Navy continues with the roll out of the 1913 Webley Semi Automatic during WWI including with the Royal Navy division on the Western Front. With extensive combat experience demonstrating the superiority of a semi auto over a revolver the Army is forced to officially adopt one instead of the Webley Mk VI revolver. As well as extensive orders for the 1913 Webley a licence is obtained by Enfield for the 1911 in .455 Auto which after WWI becomes standard issue.

I have read that the Webley 1913 had some reliability problems caused by using Cordite propellant which could foul the close tolerances of the barrel and its locking mechanism. If the round had been loaded with Nitro Cellulose powder from the start rather than waiting till 1941 it might have been more popular and made the British Army look more closely at Autos.

Webley and Scott .455 Auto

 

[fastmongrel]

Interesting thanks. 9x23 has some interesting possibilities.

The 9mm Parabellum didnt become the defacto world standard till WW2 so the 9x23mm Largo round could be adopted for British use.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Have the British decide to provide the Bren gunner in each section with a decent pistol in case the weapon became unserviceable or if he had to conduct close combat.

The Belgium HP-35 which was in the offering for the French Army (who instead choose the Pistolet automatique modèle 1935A) is chosen as the pistol of choice and a production line is stood up with BSA during 1938 and each BREN gun kit comes with a HP-35, Holster, cleaning kit and 2 x 13 round magazines (1 in the gun and 1 that can fit in the holster).

The gun becomes a success and is well liked and by the eve of war has been adopted by the Tank units and many of them become the sidearm of choice for officers.

 

[hardrada55]

BSA in the early 1920s developed this pistol in 45 ACP.

 

[Dave Shoup]

No love for the Webley-Vickers 50.80?

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1939/03/18/the-secret-life-of-walter-james-thurber

 

[fastmongrel]

BSA in the early 1920s developed this pistol in 45 ACP.

Ian from Forgotten Weapons did a video on this prototype. BSA seems to have to have hamstrung itself by using a prototype cartridge. If they had used an established cartridge like the.45 or 9mm it might have got to production.

 

[Paul_Sussex]

Bah...ninja'd. But also check out...

 

[vizzer]

Did most of the people who were issued pistols actually carry them around or were they just stuck in the back of a vehicle or in a locker somewhere?
If so it doesn't really matter what type it is.

 

[Catsmate]

The Royal Navy continues with the roll out of the 1913 Webley Semi Automatic during WWI including with the Royal Navy division on the Western Front. With extensive combat experience demonstrating the superiority of a semi auto over a revolver the Army is forced to officially adopt one instead of the Webley Mk VI revolver. As well as extensive orders for the 1913 Webley a licence is obtained by Enfield for the 1911 in .455 Auto which after WWI becomes standard issue.

Possible, to a degree, but I have doubts:
1. I don't see the UK licensing the Colt design over an improved W&S.
2. The W&S pistol wasn't that much better than the revolvers in service, and significantly more expensive to manufacture. A cost that is unlikely to be borne, given the general irrelevance of handguns to WW1 combat.
3.. Further adoption immediately after WW1 is also unlikely given the huge surplus of small arms.

 

[Catsmate]

The 9mm Parabellum didnt become the defacto world standard till WW2 so the 9x23mm Largo round could be adopted for British use.

Or the 9x25mm Mauser round.

 

[Catsmate]

Did most of the people who were issued pistols actually carry them around or were they just stuck in the back of a vehicle or in a locker somewhere?
If so it doesn't really matter what type it is.

This is important. Handguns were a very minor part of Great War fighting.

 

[fastmongrel]

This is important. Handguns were a very minor part of Great War fighting.

Your bang on the Military Police and Tank Crews are the only regular users. It was pretty rare to see officers above Lt carrying any weapons in combat. If it comes down to an officer fighting something has gone badly wrong they aren't there to fight they're there to direct the fighting. If you're head down firing a weapon you are not in control and might as well go away.

 

[fastmongrel]

Bah...ninja'd. But also check out...

The .34 round is interesting it seemed to be almost a 7.65 (.32acp) round with a heavier bullet. It might have been ideal for what the Army was after a light recoil easily shot round that didn't need a lot of training.

 

[Catsmate]

Your bang on the Military Police and Tank Crews are the only regular users. It was pretty rare to see officers above Lt carrying any weapons in combat. If it comes down to an officer fighting something has gone badly wrong they aren't there to fight they're there to direct the fighting. If you're head down firing a weapon you are not in control and might as well go away.

Plus pistols are rank badges for snipers.