Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

Crazy Boris

Banned
This map made my heart rate speed up... so much blue

I'd love to see this kind of """scientific treatment""" with other countries:
  • Greece: ancient Greek colonies, the Macedonian Empire, the Byzantine Empire
  • Russia: the Kievan Rus, the Russian Empire, the USSR
  • Turkey: the Seljuks, the Timurids (?), the Ottomans (the Timurids would be awkward, because it would make the 'core' area essentially Iraq and eastern Anatolia)
  • China: the Tang dynasty (as per this infamously optimistic Chinese map), the Ming dynasty, the Yuan dynasty, the Qing dynasty?
Any other ideas?
I wouldn't count the Timurids for Turkey, I associate them more with Central Asia and Iran than Anatolia.
  • Egypt: the New Kingdom, Fatimid Caliphate, Ayyubids, and Muhammad Ali's Khedivate
  • Indonesia: Majapahit, Srivijaya, Dutch East Indies
  • India: Mauryas, Mughals, British Raj
  • Peru: Inca Empire, Viceroyalty of Peru, Peru-Bolivian Confederation
 
I wouldn't count the Timurids for Turkey, I associate them more with Central Asia and Iran than Anatolia.
Yeah, I just couldn't think of any other Turkic empires which would fit any better, and I guessed that Turkish irredentists might identify more with Turkic states based outside Anatolia than non-Turkic states based in Anatolia. Though I suppose that if the Gallic Empire can be used for France, the Byzantines could be used for Turkey...
Some more ideas:
  • Persia: the Achaemenids, the Sassanians, the Safavids, the Afsharids (and the Timurids too if you feel like it - again, Persian irredentists probably wouldn't identify with them, but they were big and located in Persia so it's good enough for an exaggerated map)
  • Mali: Ghana Empire, Mali Empire, Songhai Empire, Toucouleur Empire
 
Denmark - Cnut´s "North Sea realm", high medieval Denmark (with Pomerania and Estonia), Kalmar union and 17/18th century colonial "empire"
Poland - duchy/early kingdom (Boleslaw I.) and P.-L. commonwealth?
Serbia - 14th century Stefan Dusan kingdom and modern Yugoslavia
 
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When Lithuania was weakened by wars and territorial losses (including capital Vilnius.) Latvia proposed a Balt unification into a new country called Aistija. Even though Lithuanians still had the numbers over the Latvians in the new state, it can be said this was a Latvian geopolitical move for their domination over the east Baltic region, with the capital of Aistija being in Riga. Kaunas at that time was still developing as the new temporary capital of Lithuania, while Riga was a well developed industrial port city of ex-Russian Empire.

Apparently this was a real proposal, with this supposed union being named after the Aesti tribe. I sadly can't find any sources about this in English, except the short summary of this Latvian article (which I found via Google Scholar) on the subject, which dates the proposal to the 1950s, though most non-academic mentions of this proposal, e.g. the one above, reference the interwar era instead.
 
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Apparently this was a real proposal, with this supposed union being named after the Aesti tribe. I sadly can't find any sources about this in English, except the short summary of this Latvian article (which I found via Google Scholar) on the subject, which dates the proposal to the 1950s, though most non-academic mentions of this proposal, e.g. the one above, reference the interwar era instead.
Aistija was the ramblings of Lithuanian and Latvian exiles with little if any chance to be applied in reality. Jonas Šliūpas's project for a united Lithuanian-Latvian state in the Interwar period is more interesting:

687px-Map_of_Lithuania-Latvia_by_%C5%A0li%C5%ABpas.jpg
 
This map made my heart rate speed up... so much blue

I'd love to see this kind of """scientific treatment""" with other countries:
  • Greece: ancient Greek colonies, the Macedonian Empire, the Byzantine Empire
  • Russia: the Kievan Rus, the Russian Empire, the USSR
  • Turkey: the Seljuks, the Timurids (?), the Ottomans (the Timurids would be awkward, because it would make the 'core' area essentially Iraq and eastern Anatolia)
  • China: the Tang dynasty (as per this infamously optimistic Chinese map), the Ming dynasty, the Yuan dynasty, the Qing dynasty?
Any other ideas?

I wouldn't count the Timurids for Turkey, I associate them more with Central Asia and Iran than Anatolia.
  • Egypt: the New Kingdom, Fatimid Caliphate, Ayyubids, and Muhammad Ali's Khedivate
  • Indonesia: Majapahit, Srivijaya, Dutch East Indies
  • India: Mauryas, Mughals, British Raj
  • Peru: Inca Empire, Viceroyalty of Peru, Peru-Bolivian Confederation

Yeah, I just couldn't think of any other Turkic empires which would fit any better, and I guessed that Turkish irredentists might identify more with Turkic states based outside Anatolia than non-Turkic states based in Anatolia. Though I suppose that if the Gallic Empire can be used for France, the Byzantines could be used for Turkey...
Some more ideas:
  • Persia: the Achaemenids, the Sassanians, the Safavids, the Afsharids (and the Timurids too if you feel like it - again, Persian irredentists probably wouldn't identify with them, but they were big and located in Persia so it's good enough for an exaggerated map)
  • Mali: Ghana Empire, Mali Empire, Songhai Empire, Toucouleur Empire


Denmark - Cnut´s "North Sea realm", high medieval Denmark (with Pomerania and Estonia), Kalmar union and 17/18th century colonial "empire"
Poland - duchy/early kingdom (Boleslaw I.) and P.-L. commonwealth?
Serbia - 14th century Stefan Dusan kingdom and modern Yugoslavia


Have any of you guys visited these pages: http://www.ict.griffith.edu.au/wiseman/History.html ?

He has a something like this for the Romans, Byzantines, Ottomans, English/British...
 
Ok, so Totentanz0 has dozens of maps on DA detailing Axis, Soviet, and Chinese plans during and after WW2.
https://www.deviantart.com/totentanz0
They're incredible and very accurate.

Unless accurate sources are provided, then this request belongs in the Map Requests thread. I can’t speak for the other ones (although the carved up America between Japan and Germany one seems more ripped from the Man in the High Castle than reality) but the “Greater Soviet Empire” one is pure fantasy - I don’t think there was any indication that the Soviet Union planned to set up a puppet government and/or occupy the southern states of the the US or even annex Taiwan...
 
Ok, so Totentanz0 has dozens of maps on DA detailing Axis, Soviet, and Chinese plans during and after WW2.
https://www.deviantart.com/totentanz0
They're incredible and very accurate.
Ah Totentanz0, now that’s a name I haven’t heard in a while.
I don’t think there was any indication that the Soviet Union planned to set up a puppet government and/or occupy the southern states of the the US or even annex Taiwan...
I believe that client state in the American south is the Republic of New Afrika while i’m not too sure what going on with Taiwan.
 
Not Necessarily a single proposal, but i looked at the list of separatist movements on Wikipedia. And thought, "hey, this sounds awf- I mean fun to map"

So I made this, some of them contradict, and some had like no info on what borders they actually claimed, or what the new nation would actually be called (I also didn't do stuff like Castile and England seceding from Spain or the UK because come on.)
SeperatistMap.png
 
Not Necessarily a single proposal, but i looked at the list of separatist movements on Wikipedia. And thought, "hey, this sounds awf- I mean fun to map"

So I made this, some of them contradict, and some had like no info on what borders they actually claimed, or what the new nation would actually be called (I also didn't do stuff like Castile and England seceding from Spain or the UK because come on.)

Tasmania? Nguyuit?
 
Hi All,
I have been away for quite a while and I'll probably take some time to get back up to speed;-
Meantime, no map but here is a list of Failed US States.
These are real world failed states that may give someone an idea.
NB. I have taken this info from various web-pages but it has never before all been seen in one place.

Absaroka[1939]
In 1939, portions of Wyoming, Montana, and South Dakota attempted to secede and form their own state called Absaroka, named after the Absaroka Range of the Rocky Mountains. While they never actually came to Congress to propose statehood, they did make Absaroka license plates and even held a 1939 Miss Absaroka beauty pageant.

Sheridan, Wyoming street commissioner A. R. Swickard was the leading force behind the movement. He declared himself governor of Absaroka and began hearing grievances from the local populace. With the start of World War II, however, the populace lost interest in the idea and it eventually disappeared altogether.

Delmarva
Similar to the Michigan Upper Peninsula statehood efforts, Delmarva’s attempts at self-government are persistent. Delmarva is the small peninsula off the east coast of Maryland that is split between three states: Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia. Hence, Delmarva.

The entirety of Delaware is located on the peninsula, but only portions belong to Maryland and Virginia. Most proposals call for Maryland and Virginia to cede their lands, Delaware to absorb them, and for the new state to be dubbed Delmarva (though some alternate plans call for the name to remain Delaware).

Some others want Delaware to remain an independent state and cede only a few counties to Delmarva, and others still insist that Maryland’s eastern shore also be included. No formal attempts have ever been made, but considering the odd borders currently present on the peninsula, a single government does sort of make sense.

Deseret[1849]
The vast State of Deseret was proposed in 1849 by members of the Church of the Latter Day Saints in what is now Utah and Nevada, as well as large parts of California and Arizona, and smaller areas of modern-day Colorado, New Mexico, Wyoming, Idaho and Oregon.

Named after the Mormon Bible word for a honeybee, the colossal provisional state existed until 1850.

Their statehood request was denied by Congress in 1849 and they were given the much smaller Utah Territory instead. The laws and regulations drafted by Deseret were quickly re-enacted under Utah Territory’s government.

However, a shadow government of Mormon elders were hopeful to one day resurrect the Deseret idea. They secretly met after each legislative session for the next twenty years and rewrote the day’s new laws under the “State of Deseret” name.

Franklin[1784]
After the Revolutionary War, it became common for states to gift their westernmost lands to the newly-founded (but broke) American government to repackage and sell to westbound pioneers. A conspiracy in North Carolina led to its western lands being sold to high-ranking members of the state government instead, then ceded to the U.S. Government under an agreement that ensured that those officials got a portion of the profits.

After the plan was discovered, a new government was elected and the deal was nullified, but the damage was already done. As a result of the shady land deals, in 1784, counties in what's now eastern Tennessee distanced themselves from North Carolina, which they viewed as corrupt, and formed the provisional State of Franklin, installing Tennessee founding father John Sevier as governor.

Unfortunately, Franklin was a mere two votes shy of the 2/3 majority vote needed to become the 14th state. Franklin’s government collapsed shortly after and North Carolina took back control of Franklin in 1789. The territory that formed the bulk of Franklin was handed over to the federal government and eventually became the State of Tennessee.

Forgottonia[1971]
This tongue-in-cheek attempt at secession may have escaped your radar, which would be fitting given the proposed state's name. Forgottonia was dreamt up in 1971 as a protest to raise awareness about 14 notoriously overlooked and neglected counties in western Illinois.

The brainchild of university student Neil Gamm, who was appointed first governor, Forgottonia never did achieve statehood but the campaign achieved its aim of drawing attention to the region, which regained its Amtrak service as a result and enjoyed increased investment across the board.

Muskogee[1799]
Not just a state, Muskogee was a self-proclaimed nation that was established in 1799 by adventurer William Augustus Bowles in parts of what is now Florida. The flamboyant American Revolutionary War veteran created the nation as a haven for Native American tribes.

Bolstered by the support of the local Miccosukee and Muscogee tribes, Bowles tried in vain to get his nation recognised but Spanish forces eventually arrested the adventurer and threw him in prison, where he died, along with the idea of Muskogee, in 1805.

Nickajack[1861]
Much like the Free and Independent State of Scott, many in the South during the Civil War, namely those who weren’t rich enough to own large tracts of land or slaves, were unhappy with the idea of seceding. One such region where this sentiment was widely held was the mountainous lands found in eastern Tennessee and northern Alabama, which attempted to merge together and form the state of Nickajack.

Instead of simply declaring themselves a new state like Scott, however, non-secessionist politicians attempted to break apart legally. While Tennessee struggled with its decision on joining the Confederacy, northern Alabama lawmakers were left attempting to block secession in their state, if not actively seceding themselves.

Unfortunately, the rules of the secession convention stated that delegates and their votes were determined by total population of their jurisdiction. Since slaves counted toward the total population, the southern and central regional delegates far outnumbered those of the north. Therefore, the slave owners were allowed to vote on behalf of their own slaves and the secession passed. A short time later, Tennesseans voted in favor of the Confederacy as well. Leaving the CSA was considered too dangerous for Nickajack, and the idea was dropped.

Scott[1861]
You may be surprised to discover that there was a lost state as recently as 1986. In fact, it existed for 125 years, but you wouldn’t have found it on any U.S. Maps.

Fiercely loyal to the Union, Scott County broke away from the State of Tennessee in 1861 and declared itself independent following Tennessee's secession and alignment with the Confederacy. Citizens of Scott, who weren’t plantation holders or slave owners, had no interest in joining the CSA and so remained a Union state. Scott became a Union Enclave during the Civil War that followed.

Tennessee ignored the proclamation and did nothing to stop them and was never officially recognised, so the tiny State of Scott was mostly forgotten about until its 125th anniversary, when it finally formally requested re-admittance to Tennessee.

Sequoyah[1905]
A Native American state was proposed by members of the five co-called 'civilised' tribes. Native Americans sought to create a part of the U.S. that had their interests in mind. In 1905, the State of Sequoyah (named after the same Sequoyah who invented the Cherokee written language) was conceptualized.

Based out of Indian Territory (present day eastern Oklahoma), a tract of land where Native Americans had been relocated by the U.S. Government, the state design would have counties for all of the major tribes and allow their system of tribal government to continue unabated.

The five tribes, who named their proposed state after a famous Cherokee leader, petitioned Congress in 1905.

When presented with their constitution and plans for statehood, Congress was hesitant due to a desire to keep the number of states between the eastern and western U.S. balanced. In the end, President Teddy Roosevelt decided that Sequoyah should be merged with the existing Oklahoma statehood proposal, creating the state as we know it today.

The Territory of Oklahoma joined the Union in 1907 as the State of Oklahoma but it could very well have ended up being the State of Sequoyah.

Superior
As one of the only non-island U.S. states with two distinct landmasses, it makes sense that citizens of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan (frequently referred to as “yoopers”) would consider splitting off from the "mainland" part of the state.

It has been proposed on a number of occasions, usually with the proposed state being called “Superior” (for Lake Superior), though other names such as Sylvania (preferred by Thomas Jefferson) and Ontonagon have also been mentioned.

In fact, the idea has been brought forth in recent years, when murmurs of upper peninsula secession bubbled up once again after debates over Michigan tax laws.

Tri-Insula[1861]
While Scott County was loyal to the Union, Fernando Wood, the slavery-supporting mayor of New York, aligned with the Confederate South, and announced in January 1861 that the boroughs of Manhattan, Long Island and Staten Island would secede to form the Free City of Tri-Insula.

The plans to secede drew some support from the New York elites who were cashing in on the slave trade, but wider support was lacking, particularly after the brutal Confederate bombing of Fort Sumter in April 1861, and Wood's secession project was ditched later that year.

Transylvania[1775]

Transylvania (over 100 years before Bram Stoker made that name scary) was made up of modern-day western and south-eastern Kentucky and northern Tennessee.
Nothing to do with Dracula or vampires, this proto-state was a colony set up by pioneer and land speculator Richard Henderson in 1775.

Purchased from Cherokee Indians by the Transylvania Company, the hope was that the British would recognize the land and allow the Transylvania Company’s owner, Richard Henderson, to rule it as an autonomous territory, like William Penn and Pennsylvania.
Unfortunately the plan unraveled when it was discovered that the purchase was illegal under British law and that the lands had already been claimed by Virginia and North Carolina. For less than a year, the land existed as an extralegal colony. Shortly before the formation of the U.S., Virginia declared the Transylvania Purchase void and officially re-claimed the lands.
The acquisition was voided the following year.

Westsylvania[1776]
In 1776, the failed colony of Vandalia (modern day West Virginia, western Pennsylvania, and eastern Kentucky) tried to reform itself the State of Westsylvania.
Westsylvania was proposed around the time of the American Revolution and would have been the 14th state in the union had it been accepted.

Feeling ignored by their political representatives, settlers in the western portions of the states of Pennsylvania and Virginia teamed up and proclaimed their independence in the summer of 1776.

The states of Pennsylvania and Virginia had no intention of recognising the breakaway state of Westsylvania.

Westsylvania’s bid never even went up for a vote. Congress ignored the petition and when the lands were taken up by the surrounding states, former Westsylvanians bristled and threatened to secede anyway.

Shortly afterward, Pennsylvania (which then owned most of the former Westsylvania lands) passed a law declaring talk of secession and the Westsylvania movement to be treasonous and punishable by execution. Threatened with treason if they carried on with their secessionist movement, the Westsylvanians eventually gave up their fight for independence.

West Texas[1845]
Texas has been the subject of several secession attempts since Congress requested a division of the state into four territories back in 1845. A number of plans to split Texas into east and west territories have been floated.

The first proposal came in 1847 but won little support and further attempts in the latter half of the 19th century came to nothing too. Other potential secession states suggested include Jacinto, Matagorda and Texlahoma.


Lincoln
There have been multiple attempts to create a State of Lincoln.

  1. [Texas 1860's?] The first has an origin similar to one of the many Jeffersons. A clause in Texas’s admission to the U.S. allowed it to be split into multiple entities. One of these proposed spinoffs, the State of Lincoln, would have taken up anything south and west of the Colorado River. Just like the state of Jefferson that would have been found in East Texas, the idea never came to fruition.

  2. [North-West 1864] After the crafting of the Washington, Idaho, and Montana Territories in 1864, it was briefly unclear if what is now known as the Idaho Panhandle would become a part of Idaho or Montana. In the meantime, the Panhandle led a petition to become a state called Lincoln.

  3. [North-West 1900's] When this failed, the idea was re-proposed in the early 1900s and included Eastern Washington, thus splitting the existing state in two. Again, the idea failed, but it has perpetually recurred since that time. The most recent proposition for the idea was made in 2005.
Jefferson
Founding Father Thomas Jefferson has inspired four proposed states at various times.

  • [1859] The first was west of Kansas Territory in 1859. Mining communities in the Rocky Mountains came together and requested the formation of their own potential state, called Jefferson. The Kansas government agreed, setting its proposed borders east of Jefferson’s. Citizens of Jefferson could not agree on a constitution, however, so it became Jefferson Territory (later Colorado Territory) instead.

  • [1870+1915] The second and third were proposed in 1870 and 1915 respectively by secessionists in Texas. As part of its admittance into the United States, Texas could agree to split itself into as many as four states. In 1870, southeastern Texas, from the San Antonio River onward, was proposed as Jefferson, with other region-states to follow. The idea was never taken very seriously. Later, in 1915, Jefferson plans re-emerged, but in western Texas instead. Only six state senators approved of the idea, and it, too, failed.

  • [1941] Jefferson was put forward as the name for a new state the fourth time in 1941 when secessionists from a mix of counties from northern California and southern Oregon mounted a short-lived independence campaign that was eventually drowned out by World War II. Supporters in the area marched with guns, passing out flyers proclaiming secession. Their movement was overshadowed by the attacks on Pearl Harbor and mostly faded away. Some, however, still propose an expanded Jefferson even today.
 
Not Necessarily a single proposal, but i looked at the list of separatist movements on Wikipedia. And thought, "hey, this sounds awf- I mean fun to map"

So I made this, some of them contradict, and some had like no info on what borders they actually claimed, or what the new nation would actually be called (I also didn't do stuff like Castile and England seceding from Spain or the UK because come on.)View attachment 492017
I can tell you now, the Patagonia thing has no known support. I'm Argentinian and I checked with Patagonian friends over it. Idk why Wikipedia lists it as a movement.
 
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